Will 100LL really stop in 2029/2030?

Morning POA,
I know it's not 100ll/100R/UL100e/g100ul but here's an alternative fuel article that popped up in the feed today.

100% synthetic jetfuel

 
Domenick said:
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Does the FAA consider melting paint as a safety issue?
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Probably not, but things like damaged o-rings, seals, hoses, etc., certainly are. I can only surmise that the FAA has not been formally presented with verifiable data regarding such issues.

Yet.

(I would prefer not to be the subject of the NTSB investigation that brings the matter to their attention.)
 
The biggest safety aspect of incompatibility with fuel system is fire, not engine-out. Fire is probably a less survivable emergency type.

What airplanes have bladder tanks?
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
The biggest safety aspect of incompatibility with fuel system is fire, not engine-out. Fire is probably a less survivable emergency type.
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Yep. And a leak under the cowling presents the fuel with ignition sources such as a hot exhaust. Material compatibility is certainly a safety issue, not just a cosmetic one.
 
avbrief.com

Innospec Issues Statement on TEL Production - AvBrief.com

"No firm timelines" on TEL production.
avbrief.com avbrief.com
“no firm timelines on the cessation of TEL-B production have been made and that we will communicate any future decisions regarding TEL-B production to all relevant GA stakeholders.”

This is the news we have been hoping for.
 
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And yes, the Federal Government can and does lean on companies in this kind of circumstance. This press release is a typical result.

100LL is by every reasonable assessment going nowhere in the US until it’s a smooth, well prepared runway. That may never be the case, in which case we’ll be using 100LL indefinitely.
 
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Tusayan said:
And yes, the Federal Government can, will and does lean on companies in this kind of circumstance. This is a typical result.

100LL is by every reasonable assessment going nowhere in the US until it’s a smooth, well prepared runway. Maybe never.
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Hopefully, I have about 800 or 900 hours left on my IO520. That should last me at least 8 or 9 years or more.

Assuming I'm still able to crawl into the Bonanza at that time, there just might be a Diesel or other engine variant I can buy (or the next owner can buy).
 
Interesting how they state they are kicking the can down the road for now, and will communicate any change. That means, they are ducking.
If the 2030 timeline slips, there is still no guarantee they will continue production. All they have said is they will communicate at the appropriate time.

Tim
 
That was a carefully worded press release. No dates were set, no promises made.
 
The Federal Government would not ask a foreign company that isn’t under contract to make firm commitments. This just indicates to me that it’s been made clear to Innospec that if they want to have an easy time doing business in the US, it would be a good idea for them to cooperate with FAA and issue a press release saying they plan to do so.

To me it was blindingly obvious that both FAA and Innospec would do this eventually. The prospect of a practical program to remove 100LL from the market is aspirational, and nobody is going to stop GA its tracks over a ‘health’ issue that is more political than medical, but which involves very real flight safety issues.
 
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Since this appears to be the latest and active unleaded avgas thread, I'll drop @Martin Pauly's GAMI presentation video from Oshkosh as I've not seen it posted yet.

George lays out a lot of the same arguments he has over the past couple of years but some newer points as well, specifically his opinion (backed by his data) that the other unleaded candidates have very little detonation margin whereas 100LL & G100UL do have that margin.
The other related point was GAMI's finding that despite being certified as a specific ratio, many individual cylinder compression ratios have varied due to manufacturing variability across all manufacturers. So maybe a ModelX engine on the test stand could pass depending on the compression ratios of its cylinders but a ModelX out in the real world could see detonation depending on the compression ratios of its individual cylinders. Interesting wrinkle. George does say they passed this information on to the cylinder manufacturers and have been addressing this.

I need to watch the videos again and digest the info more.



As noted in Martin's video's description: "My camera batteries died a few minutes before the end of the Q&A; I have included everything I could record. For a transcript and audio recording of the full Q&A, this this video":
 
The Oshkosh presentation video is worth the watch. If nothing else, it reveals what a mess the current situation is.
One interesting observation by Mr. Braly is that unleaded avgas will cost more to produce than leaded. Not really a surprise, but with no need to carefully segregate it from auto fuel, I was hoping that the price would be much the same at the pump.
 
Hard to say if it will be more expensive or less that 100 LL. I don't know how much that lead additive costs vs whatever is needed for the UL version. We don't even know what the new formula will be, let alone being able to predict the cost.

Did George ever address the paint stripping, gasket melting, spontaneous combustion issues, and how it brings back the walking dead?

(I kid, I kid.... :biggrin: )
 
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737steve said:
The Oshkosh presentation video is worth the watch. If nothing else, it reveals what a mess the current situation is.
One interesting observation by Mr. Braly is that unleaded avgas will cost more to produce than leaded. Not really a surprise, but with no need to carefully segregate it from auto fuel, I was hoping that the price would be much the same at the pump.
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Where do you get the idea that they would no longer have to segregate the fuel? Auto fuel has ethanol in it, which a non-starter for aviation use.
 
WDD said:
Hard to say if it will be more expensive or less that 100 LL. I don't know how much that lead additive costs vs whatever is needed for the UL version. We don't even know what the new formula will be, let alone being able to predict the cost.
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You're joking, right?

If unleaded fuel were less expensive to make, don't you think that Shell or some other refiner would have made the change years ago and left the retail price the same?
 
Tusayan said:
That may never be the case, in which case we’ll be using 100LL indefinitely.
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Or at least until my flying days are over - maybe in 10-15 years at age 75 or 80?
 
StraightnLevel said:
Where do you get the idea that they would no longer have to segregate the fuel? Auto fuel has ethanol in it, which a non-starter for aviation use.
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The segregation issue is related to Lead, not Ethanol. Requires dedicated tanker trucks, blending equipment etc. There is zero tolerance for lead in auto fuel due to it's effect on catalytic converters as well as EPA mandates. Ethanol is added at the distribution terminals and also requires segregation, but that infrastructure is already in place and works well. It's one less complication in the supply chain, so a net positive. (no lead)
 
With 100LL pushing 6 to 9 dollars a gallon at even relatively smaller fields, none of this may matter.
 
JOhnH said:
There is ethanol free auto fuel. Ethanol free MOGAS is already sold at some airports.
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We are fortunate to have several pure gasoline sources where I live. Nothing we have ever burns ethanol unless we happen to be on a trip where pure gasoline is unavailable. That rarely is the case.
Ethanol is added to fuel when loaded for delivery, or at the point of delivery - "splash blending". No risk of contamination in avgas.
 
JOhnH said:
There is ethanol free auto fuel. Ethanol free MOGAS is already sold at some airports.
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In all honesty, where?

I have literally NEVER seen auto fuel at any airport, and I haven't seen ethanol-free auto gas at a public pump in the better part of a decade.

From my experience it's a lot harder to find ethanol free 93 octane than it is to find any other fuel.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Where do you get the idea that they would no longer have to segregate the fuel? Auto fuel has ethanol in it, which a non-starter for aviation use.
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I noticed some automobile gasoline stations in Florida selling EtOH- free gasoline.
 
StraightnLevel said:
In all honesty, where?

I have literally NEVER seen auto fuel at any airport, and I haven't seen ethanol-free auto gas at a public pump in the better part of a decade.
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Depends where you are. Around my house, I never see it. However, I took a road trip last weekend and stopped at a QT station, and they had ethanol-free fuel. First time I'd seen it in forever, but probably because I don't have QT stations anywhere near my house.

Here's a site that tries to track where ethanol-free gas is available: https://www.pure-gas.org/
 
StraightnLevel said:
In all honesty, where?

I have literally NEVER seen auto fuel at any airport, and I haven't seen ethanol-free auto gas at a public pump in the better part of a decade.

From my experience it's a lot harder to find ethanol free 93 octane than it is to find any other fuel.
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I used to see it available at RAC but no longer listed.

Fly Unleaded US Unleaded Fuel Airport Map

flyunleaded.com flyunleaded.com
 
StraightnLevel said:
In all honesty, where?

I have literally NEVER seen auto fuel at any airport, and I haven't seen ethanol-free auto gas at a public pump in the better part of a decade.

From my experience it's a lot harder to find ethanol free 93 octane than it is to find any other fuel.
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Three gas stations within 15-30 minutes of my house and/or hangar with pure gas.
 
StraightnLevel said:
In all honesty, where?

I have literally NEVER seen auto fuel at any airport, and I haven't seen ethanol-free auto gas at a public pump in the better part of a decade.

From my experience it's a lot harder to find ethanol free 93 octane than it is to find any other fuel.
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My current airport has a tank with auto fuel. Sadly, they don't sell to the public...reserved for the FBO's own aircraft, including its RV-12s.

Previous airport had a fuel distributor only a couple of blocks away that sold alcohol-free fuel. Moved a year ago...not so easy now, but I found a station not far from my new home. Look for "clear fuel." Sadly, it's not close to the airport, so I have to drive ~20 miles with the fuel cans in the trunk. Not ideal, but it's working. I only carry five gallons at a time, but can see it'd be a bigger hassle with thirstier airplanes.

This site tries to catalog the stations selling ethanol-free fuel:

Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada

Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.
www.pure-gas.org www.pure-gas.org

There's also racing fuel, which often has higher octane but is more expensive.

I check every load of auto fuel for ethanol. Easy enough...I use a small test tube with a stopper.
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Ron Wanttaja
 
StraightnLevel said:
I have literally NEVER seen auto fuel at any airport, and I haven't seen ethanol-free auto gas at a public pump in the better part of a decade.
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Ethanol-free auto gas is widely available here. WaWa has it, and several other stations. It's all I run in my motorcycle and tractors. And KGIF has ethanol-free mogas at the self-serve island. I haven't looked for it at other airports.
 
93 octane ethanol free gas is available at the propane refill place I take my bbq tanks too. Of course though, its $6.00/gallon.

I used to use it in my yard equipment and my wife' 150 cc scooter. I've replaced all my yard equipment with EGO battery tools (and love every one of them), but my wife still rides the scooter. It gets >60mpg, but it only holds 1.1 gallons. Still, a 5 gallon can lasts her a month or two. During hurricane season I keep two of those cans full for the Honda generator.
 
Here, I have three ethanol-free stations within 3 miles @ nominally $5.90/gallon.

I had a small Geo Tracker SUV that I routinely loaned out as airport manager at KSSQ. Unrecognized by me, borrowers would innocently add E10 fuels which finally got the fuel system. Had to scrap the car as was not practical to repair.:(

No way should ethanol-laced gasoline be used in aircraft, motorcycles, or with any engine where the fuel may be expected to last for months without complete and total fuel replacement.
 
Half Fast said:
Ethanol-free auto gas is widely available here. WaWa has it, and several other stations. It's all I run in my motorcycle and tractors. And KGIF has ethanol-free mogas at the self-serve island. I haven't looked for it at other airports.
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Same here. 90 octane ethanol free is becoming common. It usually sells for the same price as 93 octane E10, about a dollar more than 87 octane E10.

The first I heard about it was at the marina where our boat is kept, and the brand supplied was Marathon Rec 90. It's more expensive at the marina, of course, but that has a lot to do with the economics of running a fuel dock. Older boats fuel systems don't always do well with ethanol, and outboard engines expect 89 octane or better.

We have a 2015 Yamaha boat and a 2017 Yamaha Waverunner, both are just fine with 87 octane E 10.
 
as all my vehicles and are made to deal with ethanol, I don't care what magic brew gets lit on fire, i'm not understanding why this is even an issue. is it everyone just likes to complain about something or other? even my used every 5 years pressure washer thrives on ethanol gas
 
I think that everyone should have the freedom to choose whether or not their gasoline is mixed with alcohol.
The ethanol lobby disagrees.
 
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