Why do pilots say.......(uncontrolled)

[RoscoeT]

I usually say something like- "Clear active 30" or some such. This in my mind tells people approaching the airport, which runway most people, or at least more than just me is using. I use the word "active" to indicate that numerous people at the airport are using a particular runway.

If there are really "numerous" people using 30, don't you think all their pattern calls (x-wind, downwind, base, final) mentioning "30" would tip off approaching pilots that most are using 30? If there's nobody else in the pattern and you just cleared the runway, it doesn't matter a damn bit which runway they use. This "active" stuff is mostly learned procedure monkey stuff that pilots say without thinking. Monkey hear, monkey repeat.

 

[Everskyward]

That is what you'd think, but I've learned to add the 'ready to copy' simply because many of the towered airports I fly IFR out of, if you don't specify 'ready to copy' on your initial callup, they will respond - 'advise when ready to copy'.

I suspect that is an individual facility thing or an individual controller thing. I find that I am sometimes, but rarely, asked if I am ready to copy after my initial call-up. On the other hand, sometimes the controller will say, "clearance on request" or "standby", then I start doing something else at which time they blurt out the clearance without any warning.

But mostly I don't notice different ATC or pilot techniques. It's funny to read the comments here because in thinking back I realize I have heard them but they didn't register one way or another at the time.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I suspect that is an individual facility thing or an individual controller thing. I find that I am sometimes, but rarely, asked if I am ready to copy after my initial call-up. On the other hand, sometimes the controller will say, "clearance on request" or "standby", then I start doing something else at which time they blurt out the clearance without any warning.

But mostly I don't notice different ATC or pilot techniques. It's funny to read the comments here because in thinking back I realize I have heard them but they didn't register one way or another at the time.

It probably has alot to do with individual controllers getting frustrated with pilots making the initial callup and not being ready to copy. I was also based out of MYF for 5 years which had alot of student traffic. Being military, I am all about minimizing radio traffic and simply found that adding the 'ready to copy' helped.

 

[RyanB]

This makes it sound like there is another 18 available. It just doesn't happen to be the active 18 right now.

I'm saying in general a 18/36 runway. If there's more than one 18 then specify.

 

[Everskyward]

This stupid pedantic nonsense is exactly what likely turns people off from becoming pilots, or tips them over the edge to quit. The pilot community is way too anal, over the top goofy about crap like this.

Check out the "Crossing mid-field at pattern altitude" thread which is getting goofier and more anal with each post.

 

[flyingron]

The thing that has popped up around here of late is people adding "LAST CALL" to their position reports when they depart the pattern.

I always am torn between asking "You promise?" and ordering a drink when they do that.

 

[flyingron]

"Clear of the active" doesn't bother me too much (at single runway airports) because clear is clear. I usually say just clear of the runway. But any other report requires a runway number so we know which end you're referring to.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The thing that has popped up around here of late is people adding "LAST CALL" to their position reports when they depart the pattern.

I always am torn between asking "You promise?" and ordering a drink when they do that.

You too?

 

[bullwinkle]

No, there isn't an "active" runway at a non-towered airport. As far as why people say it, I suspect it's because they mentally equate "active" with "the one being used".

You could also say all runways are "equally active".

I had an instructor who would chastise people over the radio for saying "active" with regards to runways at uncontrolled fields. That's a little overboard, but technically saying "active" is incorrect. I guess it's better than the dudes who announce that they are "taxiing from parking" at uncontrolled fields...

 

[Velocity173]

It's not proper for the pilot to say "clearance on request" when he's requesting IFR clearance. That's a phrase ATC uses that means he's requested your clearance and doesn't have it yet, he'll call you when he gets it.
Simply.."….off Tango Tango Alpha leaving 2000 IFR to Allen County" is sufficient.

While I'd agree for civilians your example is fine, in the military it's recomended to say "clearance on request."

(2) INITIAL RADIO CONTACT- Pilots in their initial radio communication with the facility concerned will state:
AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION, LOCATION ON THE AIRPORT, TYPE OF OPERATION PLANNED (IFR), POINT OF FIRST INTENDED LANDING AND REQUESTED ACTION
(TAXI / CLEARANCE ON REQUEST/ ETC.).

Since this was hammered into my head, I still use that format today as a civilian. Pretty sure the phraseology police aren't going to arrest me.

 

[jordane93]

The thing that has popped up around here of late is people adding "LAST CALL" to their position reports when they depart the pattern.

I always am torn between asking "You promise?" and ordering a drink when they do that.

 

[AdamZ]

Who cares as long as you understand what they mean? That is the point, isn't it?

That's the problem. It may not be possible to know what they mean. I fly out of a field with one runway 6/24. I've heard people say:

Bugsmasher taking the active. What the hell does that mean? 6 or 24. If wind is 265@11 it may be easy to figure out but what's the purpose? What if the wind is a non issue?

If someone says Bugsmasher clear the active, it sounds goofy but I know what it means but at some uncontrolled fields they have multiple runways including some grass runways.

Another problem is when a pilot calls up and says XYZ Unicom state your active, that means squat. Unicom can say 24 is the active ( if they are going to answer they should just give the current wind and let the pilot decide) but if they say 24 that does not prevent another plane from landing on the opposite runway.

People just need to listen to traffic. Bad stuff can happen when people try to control things or state absolutes when they have zero authority.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

While I'd agree for civilians your example is fine, in the military it's recomended to say "clearance on request."

(2) INITIAL RADIO CONTACT- Pilots in their initial radio communication with the facility concerned will state:
AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION, LOCATION ON THE AIRPORT, TYPE OF OPERATION PLANNED (IFR), POINT OF FIRST INTENDED LANDING AND REQUESTED ACTION
(TAXI / CLEARANCE ON REQUEST/ ETC.).

Since this was hammered into my head, I still use that format today as a civilian. Pretty sure the phraseology police aren't going to arrest me.

That's interesting. I've been known occasionally to state "…..request IFR clearance to XXXX" but usually just "……IFR to XXXX" seems to get it.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

(2) INITIAL RADIO CONTACT- Pilots in their initial radio communication with the facility concerned will state:
AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION, LOCATION ON THE AIRPORT, TYPE OF OPERATION PLANNED (IFR), POINT OF FIRST INTENDED LANDING AND REQUESTED ACTION
(TAXI / CLEARANCE ON REQUEST/ ETC.).

Just for my own curiosity, what military reg did this come from?

 

[Larry in TN]

At least I've broken myself of saying my full N number to a bunch of other pilots who don't care

Of course, the use of the full N-number is required by FCC regulations.

 

[Velocity173]

Just for my own curiosity, what military reg did this come from?

No regulation. It's in the DOD GP Ch6.

When I went through the instrument examiner course, everything you did had to have some sort of official reference, whether it be regulatory or non regulatory. They don't accept "well what I do is..." They even have written on the board "show me a reference."

 

[Velocity173]

That's interesting. I've been known occasionally to state "…..request IFR clearance to XXXX" but usually just "……IFR to XXXX" seems to get it.

I'd agree, your phraseology is fine. Nothing wrong with that. It's a given that when you say "IFR to XYZ" they know you're requesting your clearance.

 

[JimNtexas]

When I fly into an uncontrolled airport I usually find that every runway is 'active', especially if the wind is less than 10 knots or so. (I'm looking at you, homebuilt pilots).

I don't think it is safe to assume that your 'active' runway is the same 'active' runway as that other guy over there.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've also used "N123 clear the active" at uncontrolled airports.

You know what I'm saying, if you got a problem come find me in the FBO.

No, I don't know what you're saying. Even at a single strip airport you could be going either way. IOW, all I know is that you're moving on the airport, not where you are or where you're going.

 

[flyingron]

When I fly into an uncontrolled airport I usually find that every runway is 'active', especially if the wind is less than 10 knots or so. (I'm looking at you, homebuilt pilots).

I don't think it is safe to assume that your 'active' runway is the same 'active' runway as that other guy over there.

It's also not helped when some useful soul in the FBO looks at the AWOS display and reports a different runway than everybody in the pattern is currently using.

The other fun was we had two of us on approach to CJR one afternoon. I coordinated to follow the guy ahead of me into the pattern for 22. Some guy decides to taxi to RWY 4 and has a conniption that we (particularly the #1 guy) is going to 22. Hey, planes in the air have row over guys on the ground. Now you can either take off ahead of us (we're only on downwind), taxi to 22, or wait for us to get on the ground. But don't sit there and argue about who's right.

 

[poadeleted20]

Oh God dammit! Since we're being all pedantic and precise and crap like that, go back and read my post and tell me if I state anywhere that I ONLY say "active". I usually say something like- "Clear active 30" or some such. This in my mind tells people approaching the airport, which runway most people, or at least more than just me is using. I use the word "active" to indicate that numerous people at the airport are using a particular runway. If I'm the only one using the frequency, you know what? I say nothing when exiting the runway.

Doesn't mean you're the only one using that airport, and you don't get to dictate which runway others use. IOW, at a nontowered airport, the word "active" is just a pointless waste of two syllables, right up there with "any traffic in the area please advise," albeit not as long.

 

[wlawr005]

Sometimes (most of the time really) an IFR flight plan for a military plane isn't going to be IFR to XYZ. 90% of our flights are an IFR clearance to some particular fix/warning area/restricted area...almost every military facility will have a book of pre-planned "canned" IFR flight plans from which to choose from.

At Oceana, the 99% flight plan is coded the NTU002...for which I will say..

"Clearance, Callsign XX, single (flight of 2/3/4...etc), NTU2 on request"

You could say "clearance", but that would be a little extraneous. Arguing about comm brevity regarding when you say "ready to copy" seems a little daunting, especially considering the amount of "trucker comm" you hear around most small airports.

For the most part, I'm generally not ready to copy clearance when I ask for it, and will politely ignore Delivery until I'm actually at a place where I can write it down and read it back...and will let them know by saying "ready to copy"

 

[Velocity173]

"Roman 15, cleared via the NZC42R, after departure runway 23 fly runway heading, climb and maintain one zero thousand, expect FL230 one zero minutes after departure, departure control frequency 328.4, squawk 4315."

Oh boy, that's dates me.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I flew at to Casa Grande yesterday and called out which was the active runway everyone was using. I guess I was wrong asking this.

I think your right. I've done this quite often if I don't hear any radio traffic. Usually someone will answer "we are using runway so and so , no reported traffic. " it's a big help. The only thing to worry about at this point is the idiot who is not using a radio that is near you or in the pattern unseen for a variety of reasons, often times because he is at the wrong pattern altitude below you. Tough to see thru the bottom of your plane. Then again they might be directly above you, just out of sight.

 

[FastEddieB]

Check out the "Crossing mid-field at pattern altitude" thread which is getting goofier and more anal with each post.

On the Cirrus website I was the flounder of a sub-group of members - ARCOPA.

Anal Retentive Cirrus Owner's and Pilot's Association.

One had to earn membership and got an ARCOPA number.

Do we need an ARPOA?

 

[wlawr005]

Haha, that does date you my friend. There haven't been any Romans at Cecil since '95!

 

[jordane93]

Bottom line is that you should say, "Cessna 12345 is clear of runway XX" It is simple and eliminates all ambiguities

 

[NJP_MAN]

Bottom line is that you should say, "Cessna 12345 is clear of runway XX" It is simple and eliminates all ambiguities

Nah, I'm going with "N123 is clearing the most currently active runway XX. I will now taxi via the active taxiway YY to the active ramp ZZ."

 

[Velocity173]

Haha, that does date you my friend. There haven't been any Romans at Cecil since '95!

Funny story about the Romans in 95. I was working a female student on departure one time heading back on an NZC 42R. I gave her 10K on departure and was attempting a hand off with JAX Center. I looked down and she blew right past her altitude. Didn't catch it until she was around 11.5K. Went something like this:

"Roman 15 you were assigned one zero thousand, maintain one zero, ten thousand."
(Garbled) "uh, roger Roman 15.

"Alendale low Beaufort 47 line."
"Alendale."
"Roman 15 busted her altitude, she's going back to one zero thousand."
"Oh no, they let girls fly those now?"
(Laughter) "Yeah, I guess they do."
"OK Beaufort, send her on up to two three oh. Radar contact."
"Two three oh. AR."
"CC."

It was kinda neat back then because you would always hear a man's voice and then in early 95 you'd start hearing women. Witnessing history being made in a strange kinda way. Now a days a woman's voice in fighters in common place.

Anyway, sorry about the thread creep. You may now continue with your normal programming.

 

[noahfong]

I personally have a problem with both. I have heard ATC say clearance on request to let me know that he knows I want my clearance, but he doesn't have it yet. Why a pilot would need to say it is beyond me. As for ready to copy...If I wasn't ready to copy, I wouldn't be calling for clearance.

I agree. I don't think a lot of pilots know what "clearance on request" means. Controllers say that to mean they are requesting your clearance for you (the status of the clearance is "on request"). It doesn't make any sense for a pilot to say it (how in the heck would he know it's "on request"?)

As to just saying "IFR to xwy", my reaction would be "So?". I would make the call more definitive by adding "request clearance" (and be ready to copy). Maybe a controller can chime in.

 

[JimNtexas]

I flew at to Casa Grande yesterday and called out which was the active runway everyone was using. I guess I was wrong asking this.

As I mentioned above I don't like the word 'active', but I don't see anything wrong with asking 'Dogpatch traffic, what runway is in use?', especially if it is a light wind day.

 

[poadeleted20]

As I mentioned above I don't like the word 'active', but I don't see anything wrong with asking 'Dogpatch traffic, what runway is in use?', especially if it is a light wind day.

I don't see much difference between that and ATITAPA -- if you listen, you'll find out who's using which runway, and if they're not making the recommended reports, what's the point in begging them to talk? What I teach is for people to just make their own reports and then "follow the evidence". So if I didn't know who was doing what there, and wasn't sure what I was going to do, I'd just say "Dogpatch traffic, Tiger 22RL, ten south, inbound, landing" and wait to hear what other planes say before making any further decisions. If nothing else, my "ten south, inbound, landing" transmission is useful to others, while "what runway is in use?" doesn't help anyone.

 

[wlawr005]

Funny story about the Romans in 95. I was working a female student on departure one time heading back on an NZC 42R. I gave her 10K on departure and was attempting a hand off with JAX Center. I looked down and she blew right past her altitude. Didn't catch it until she was around 11.5K. Went something like this:

"Roman 15 you were assigned one zero thousand, maintain one zero, ten thousand."
(Garbled) "uh, roger Roman 15.

"Alendale low Beaufort 47 line."
"Alendale."
"Roman 15 busted her altitude, she's going back to one zero thousand."
"Oh no, they let girls fly those now?"
(Laughter) "Yeah, I guess they do."
"OK Beaufort, send her on up to two three oh. Radar contact."
"Two three oh. AR."
"CC."

It was kinda neat back then because you would always hear a man's voice and then in early 95 you'd start hearing women. Witnessing history being made in a strange kinda way. Now a days a woman's voice in fighters in common place.

Anyway, sorry about the thread creep. You may now continue with your normal programming.

Best. Ever.

Right now, off the top of my head, I can name 11 female pilots or WSOs in the east coast Hornet community. There's probably at least 5 times that many.

 

[James331]

As I mentioned above I don't like the word 'active', but I don't see anything wrong with asking 'Dogpatch traffic, what runway is in use?', especially if it is a light wind day.

You really think people don't know the difference between

"Which runway is in use"

And

"What's the active runway"

I thought the average pilot had a enough brain cells to figure that one out

 

[poadeleted20]

You really think people don't know the difference between

"Which runway is in use"

And

"What's the active runway"

I thought the average pilot had a enough brain cells to figure that one out

Given that "Active Runway" and "Runway in Use" have the same definition in the P/CG, I don't see any difference at all.

RUNWAY IN USE/ACTIVE RUNWAY/DUTY RUNWAY- Any runway or runways currently being used for takeoff or landing. When multiple runways are used, they are all considered active runways. In the metering sense, a selectable adapted item which specifies the landing runway configuration or direction of traffic flow. The adapted optimum flight plan from each transition fix to the vertex is determined by the runway configuration for arrival metering processing purposes.

But perhaps you can tell us what you think the difference is, and which FAA document supports your thinking.

 

[Jim Logajan]

In retrospect the glider training I did at a private airfield where we had no radio was quiet bliss. No engine noise. No radio chatter.

If I must engage in radio chatter when I fly an airplane these days, I try to keep it informative. Even when I flew to 00S (McKenzie Bridge, OR) and 8S3 (Santiam Junction, OR) where you must land to the east and take off to the west, and there typically isn't another aircraft for miles, I still name the runway numbers:

"McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction] traffic, Cessna six two hotel landing runway 6, McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction]."

"McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction] traffic, Cessna six two hotel clear of runway 6, McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction]."

"McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction] traffic, Cessna six two hotel back-taxiing runway 24, McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction]."
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]"McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction] traffic, Cessna six two hotel departing runway 24, McKenzie Bridge [Santiam Junction]."

I'm nothing if not pedantic. Now back to work for me - someday I'll get weather and enough free time to coincide to actually fly rather than post to PoA.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[txflyer]

Brenham has 16 and 34.

I'll take off downwind sometimes if I'm headed North and 16 is the active.

So uncontrolled means just that. No one controls me.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Brenham has 16 and 34.

I'll take off downwind sometimes if I'm headed North and 16 is the active.

So uncontrolled means just that. No one controls me.

So 16 wasn't really the active then.

 

[txflyer]

So 16 wasn't really the active then.

Yes it was. Notice I said I take off DOWNwind.

5000' of runway in a skywagon, you can take off any which way you like.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Yes it was. Notice I said I take off DOWNwind.

5000' of runway in a skywagon, you can take off any which way you like.

That's what I am saying. They are all active at uncontrolled field. There is no such thing as THE active.