Why do people argue glass vs steam?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by JonH, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

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    CFI: Students must do all their primary training on steam gauges.
    Idiot: Why?
    CFI: Because flying on steam gauges is more difficult and therefore the student ends up with a better understanding of flight.
    Idiot: I see what you mean. I guess that's why all primary training is still done in tailwheel aircraft.
    CFI: You're an idiot.
    Idiot: <ironic blank stare>
     
  2. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    It's simply what you prefer to see:

    Destruction vs Distraction.jpg
     
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  3. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Can’t you feel when you’re not coordinated!
     
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  4. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Not all the time, no. Swirling winds knock the ball all over the place. In an airplane that lands at 20mph staying coordinated is kind of a big deal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  5. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    Pet peeve is the Avidyne version of slip/skid. It’s a stupid “doghouse” arrangement that’s not at all intuitive.

    This is another case where the glass version could just easily and efficiently mimic the steam version. As it does on my little Dynon, seen here:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Lachlan

    Lachlan Pattern Altitude

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    That’s just Texas for you. ;)
     
  7. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas En-Route

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    It is different, though. Glass is easier because it presents a picture, not just numbers. The synthetic vision technology makes it even easier. That's not to say that steam is better (other than the fact that glass, being far more complex and reliant on electrical supply, is a bit more likely to fail at an inopportune moment); glass makes everything more precise and mistakes in flight are less likely.

    The steam/glass argument is much the same as the taildragger/trike argument. It is far easier to learn to fly taildraggers first rather than after learning on a trike.

    I was a flight instructor for a while, with experience in taildraggers, trikes, and steam; some glass, though not a lot. I did find that the students that wanted to rely heavily on the graphic stuff, including GPS in the steamers, did not have a real good handle on navigation using just the basic panel.
     
  8. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Glass displays aren’t just cobbled together in random fashion. Industrial phychologists have studied how to best provide the information, and while in the first hour or two it may look unusual? You adapt to it very quickly and can process the information very effectively after just a few hours. It quickly becomes second nature and when getting back into a plane with steam gauges you recognize that you’re searching for info when you don’t have to with glass. Its just there. Even things like changing screens to control the comm or set the altimeter are intuitive in no time. I like it. If I had $30K burning a hole in my pocket I’d put a G500 system in the Cessna, but that’s not on my priority list at the moment.
     
  9. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Learn both. You’ll most likely see both in a professional career.
     
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  10. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    Old people like steam gauges, younger prefer glass.
     
  11. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    I personally would not fly without both of 'em. Left and right.

    My new project has four. :)
     
  12. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    Also digital ribbon displays are not nearly as rate intuitive as pointers for new pilots. Industrial psychologists did not design the display formats for VFR student and recreational pilots. The display layout were designed to be used in the defense and airline industry by high experiance pilots flying in instrument conditions in high speed aircraft.
     
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  13. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Line Up and Wait

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    I'm 61. Give me glass ... but let me use a "dial" format for certain parameters, which, to me, is better for trend recognition. (I've configured my car to have a fake dial tachometer; I don't like the ribbon.)
     
  14. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Disagree. My airspeed and altitude have trend pointers that are more sensitive to increase-despcrease than my eye is on a steam gauge. Not arguing for or against, but the students will learn with the info format they’re provided.
     
  15. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    I dunno. My older D180 has digital tape for altitude, airspeed, and heading... with little rate bars that are very intuitive. I learned to fly on old round dials like most people. Transitioning to glass took a couple of hours to be comfortable with it, and a few more to become really proficient. It's not THAT big of a switch. It took longer than moving from yoke to stick (almost effortless), but not a whole lot.
     
  16. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    I agree 110%. In my opinion, anyone aspiring to make a career in aviation is doing themselves a disservice if they think they’ll only fly with one or the other and only learn one.

    If someone is flying purely for recreation, I’d recommend flying whatever you want but it would probably be best to fly whatever you intend to fly after the training period is over.
     
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  17. murphey

    murphey Final Approach

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    Hate to say it, but there are many places in the US where GPS isn't reliable but the silly compass on the glareshield, and a watch, works but only if you understand mag field and such. Ignoring the apocalypse, a serious EMP hit will trash most of our glass panels and iPads. And, of course, all the GPS "testing" in the west aint doing any of us much good. The key is backup, always backup.
     
  18. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Where in the USA does GPS not work?
     
  19. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Some primary still is.
     
  20. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why do we have the steam vs. glass argument? Because we're pilots! We can argue about anything.

    For some, I think it's a bit of macho attitude. Honestly, if you can fly one, you can learn to fly the other. It's not that big a deal. I go back and forth all the time. The amount of steam will continue to steadily decline, but since airplanes last a long time there will likely be steam around for a long time, most of which won't fly much IFR making the argument somewhat moot.
     
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  21. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Glad to know I'm still "young" at 61!! ;)
     
  22. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I thought it was just when you get off the edges of our Flat Earth that it got flakey?
     
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  23. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    And that’s just because the secret U.N. navy jams it.
     
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  24. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Old dog w/o new tricks
    Actually old is my age +1.

    I am currently 60.
     
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  25. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If my glass didn’t work, I’d be steamed!
     
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  26. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    It's my age plus five, for me. Plus one would mean I'm almost old.
     
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  27. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    When my dad was transitioning from the DC-9 to 747 he had to a few extra sims because he’d never flew anything with an FMS or glass. Conversely when he was a sim check airman on the DC-9, a lot of the new hires struggled with raw data approaches because they’ve been flying glass RJs for several years. So I don’t buy, “only learn on glass because everything is automated these days.” I also don’t buy, “only learn on steam gauges.”
     
  28. JonH

    JonH Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This will always be my favorite setup (or anything similar).

    Both the situational awareness of glass, and the steam redundancy. I wouldn't want all glass, or all steam. Ever... again.
     

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  29. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I’d normally agree with you but in this case my age +1 would be 61 which makes @LDJones old.

    I’m a bit evil at times.
     
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  30. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Something like this?

    partial.JPG
     
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  31. Dan Thomas

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    In 30 years the old guys will be gone. The young guys will then be the old guys, and they will want to fly the airplane sometimes. They will lament the passing of the airplane that needs a pilot. The young guys at that time will let their self-flying airplanes do it all for them while they stare at their phones.
     
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  32. MauleSkinner

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    Steam for high wing, glass for low wing...any idiot knows that! ;)
     
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  33. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    It’s funny, my brother does ATC was commenting on the young ATC guys the other day. Said they rely on the software in order to issue a vector but once it’s gets busy, they don’t have time to use that feature and must rely on good ole fashion ATC. Said their vectors go to crap when they have to do it themselves. :D Also said they spend most of their time staring at their phones vs studying the job.

    While we have a new crop of tech savvy aviation professionals, because of outside distractions, I wonder if they’ve learned the basics of how to perform on their job.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  34. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    They were still arguing about this when I started to fly back in the mid '60s.
     
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  35. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Agree to disagree. I did my entire private, instrument and commercial training in trikes. The vast majority of my hours since are tailwheel. Don't recall how long it took me to get the endorsement but it wasn't long and it wasn't hard. If a student does their private training in glass and then finds they can't safely fly steam, its either a failure of the student or the CFI or both. But it ain't the fault of the panel.
     
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  36. TheBoatDude

    TheBoatDude Filing Flight Plan

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    We gotta fight about something. It’s either this, or low vs high wing or trike vs tail dragger.
     
  37. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    And a few others:
    LOP vs ROP
    Who was/is the best pilot
    Bonanza vs Mooney vs Cirrus
    Can you log ...

    And maybe even argue about what to argue about ( meta-argue )?
     
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  38. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You can always use both. How about low wing versus high wing.
     
  39. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I’m fine with either or. 95% of my training has been on “steam” gauges.
     
  40. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Line Up and Wait

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