Why are super vikings so cheap?

bflynn

bflynn

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Brian Flynn
On a price per performance scale, Super Vikings are super cheap. Not quite 1950s Bonanza cheap, but much less than comparable aircraft. What causes them to be so low in price? Just not well known and not a big market? Expensive to repair?
 
Some have an engine with an AD that mandates replacement at next overhaul.

I’m not sure if others experienced this but many years back they were very

difficult to get parts or Service Info from the factory.
 
bflynn said:
On a price per performance scale, Super Vikings are super cheap. Not quite 1950s Bonanza cheap, but much less than comparable aircraft. What causes them to be so low in price? Just not well known and not a big market? Expensive to repair?
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A lot of people don't fit in them, driving the overall demand down. For me, it is the single most uncomfortable plane I have ever been in, but I also wear a 48 jacket. I wanted out after 5 minutes.
 
EdFred said:
A lot of people don't fit in them, driving the overall demand down. For me, it is the single most uncomfortable plane I have ever been in, but I also wear a 48 jacket. I wanted out after 5 minutes.
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I'm on the smaller side of average and I still find this to be true.

Then there's the wood and fabric aspect of it and the fact that for the same power they're a tad slower than the competition. But if you ask a Bellanca lover you'll get a totally different response.
 
Bellanca’s factory support is hit or miss (historically). Right now, seems to be in very good hands. You need a mechanic who knows how to deal with them and they’re relatively simple to deal with. I have a Cruisemaster and love it. But it’s quirky. Also, fabric scares many people.

If you can find a mechanic who knows how to deal with Bellanca’s and you have a hangar and you’re not large, they’re great value in my opinion.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
do they really do 160?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N4201B
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My 1989 Super Viking regularly trues out at around 200mph (POH is in mph, so that's what the airspeed indicator reads in). That's around 174 knots. This is at 8000MSL and ROP at 13gph.

People tend to be scared of wood and fabric which can depress prices. Get a good pre-buy from one of the experts, keep it hangared, and it's a great plane. My wife and I call it our magic carpet.

It can be snug; it's more of a wear the plane than sit inside type of thing. They're not for everyone, but I like mine.

BTW, I'm 6'2" and am north of 210 lbs. I've done 4+ hour legs solo with plenty of comfort.

Longest day was 15 hours in 4 legs with just enough time on the ground to refuel and hit the head. West bound from TN to Northern California. Lots of headwinds that day.
 
The artificially depressed price is largely because of the unjustified concern about the wooden wing breaking.
I took advantage of this perception to benefit greatly - over 20 years ago when I bought mine.
Went all over the US, Mexico and Canada, grass, mountains, hard ifr, ice, 50kt winds.
Had a great time. Miss her dearly.
I think I ended with 1850hrs in my log in that airplane. Same engine, I never tore it down.
 
jimhorner said:
People tend to be scared of wood and fabric
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This. Wood doesn't fatigue it rots. Keep it dry and sealed and it will outlive every owner. Once metal aircraft showed up people forgot about the difference.
 
They are wonderful airplanes. One of the best flying machine you will ever enjoy flying. That said, they are wood and fabric. So a bit more when they need the maintenance. And since its largely wood and fabric they will at some point need new fabric etc. Guess I never flew another same catagory airplane that could keep up with it. But its a bit tight. I didn;t find it as uncomfortable as the mooney, and it flew so much better, but similar. Not a great useful load, but a real pilots airplane. I got my instrument, CFI and commercial in mine. Mine was a 17-31ATC so Lyc powered and turbo. The continentals were slightly faster at the same altitudes. But here the Turbo is real nice. They are tight to work on. No where near as bad as a Mooney, or early Aztec. But much harder than my Bo was. They are extremely rugged. But again you have the wood and fabric to deal with. Dry climate, and you can get dry rot, or the wood drys and shrinks. Wet climate and the wood can rot as well. Definitely a plane that needs to be hangered. I have worked on a few that were left out in the rain and sun. Not good for any airplane, but much worse for wooden planes. Yes a lot of performance for the dollars. It's a sports car on wings to fly.
 
Is the insurance higher because of the wood and fabric?
 
bflynn said:
So…not a plane to keep on a ramp…
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Not as its normal storage place. Nothing wrong with a few days tied down on a trip even in rain. Flying the plane soon after it gets wet will dry it out. But yes, one should have a hangar for its home.
 
I think they're one of the best value in high performance airplanes out there. I had, with some partners, a '72 for several years. Awesome airplane. Solid 160ktas on ~14gph LOP. Had a good useful load, too.

But, they do have a few quirks that depress the values. Certain aspects of them are a little trickier to work on, factory support/documentation isn't great (the manuals that exist aren't nearly as good as Beech/Piper/Cessna manuals), airframe parts can be a little harder to source, wood/fabric experts are dwindling, and the interior is snug as others mentioned.

The fuel system on the early models is also quirky and has resulted in several accidents because pilots lost track of where their fuel was. Ours had 5 fuel tanks, 2 fuel selectors, and fuel gauges that only displayed the tank selected. So it took some real understanding of that system to not get in trouble.

But they fly like a dream. We only sold ours because we wanted to move up to a twin.
 
charheep said:
Is the insurance higher because of the wood and fabric?
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In my experience, fabric covered airplanes usually have higher insurance rates than a similar metal aircraft. If you want a reasonable point of reference, price insurance on a Piper Tri-Pacer and also price insurance on a 172. You’ll likely find that the PA22 is a few hundred more to insure.
 
EdFred said:
A lot of people don't fit in them, driving the overall demand down. For me, it is the single most uncomfortable plane I have ever been in, but I also wear a 48 jacket. I wanted out after 5 minutes.
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Hmm, I've only flown in a few but always found them plenty roomy at least as big as my debonair if not roomier. I'm not a big guy though but one of the Viking guys i know is a very big dude with no issues.
I would never have considered it too small for anyone
 
Justin Brady said:
Hmm, I've only flown in a few but always found them plenty roomy at least as big as my debonair if not roomier. I'm not a big guy though but one of the Viking guys i know is a very big dude with no issues.
I would never have considered it too small for anyone
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Like Mooneys, wide enough down low, but not up top. I have a long torso, and I sit higher, so where it starts to narrow at the top, it starts impacting my shoulder. I have to sit canted to fit. Still plenty of room at my waist. But that's not where the issue is.
 
Oldmanb777 said:
Dry climate, and you can get dry rot, or the wood drys and shrinks. Wet climate and the wood can rot as well.
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"Dry rot" is a misnomer. It still takes moisture to rot, and once rot starts, atmospheric moisture might be enough to keep it going.

Dry rot is the term given to brown rot decay caused by certain fungi that deteriorate timber in buildings and other wooden construction without an apparent source of moisture. The term is a misnomer[2] because all wood decaying fungi need a minimum amount of moisture before decay begins.[3] The decayed wood takes on a dark or browner crumbly appearance, with cubical like cracking or checking, that becomes brittle and can eventually crush the wood into powder. Chemically, wood attacked by dry rot fungi is decayed by the same process as other brown rot fungi. An outbreak of dry rot within a building can be an extremely serious infestation that is hard to eradicate, requiring drastic remedies to correct. Significant decay can cause instability and cause the structure to collapse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_rot

The fairings at the leading edge roots, against the fuselage, must be sealed exactly as the service manual stipulates. If there's no sealant, water gets into that wing and right up against the spars. If the sealant is applied all the way around and down the bottom, water that gets in there is trapped. If the wrong sealant is used, it can fail or crack or make removal difficult and expensive. Those fairings need to come off every annual to do the wooden wing AD. The sealant specified is the old dumdum stuff that never hardens. I encountered fairings glued on with construction adhesive. That caused some damage and necessary repairs, and it was obvious that nobody had been taking those fairings off to do the probe tests on the spar roots. It appears that nobody reads service manuals.

The sealant down the rest of the wing root has to be maintained, too.
 
omg, thank you.
I have been fighting this nonsense for decades.
Came here to say There Is No Such Thing As Dry Rot.
It's a fabricated term, again, by those who do not understand - and passed on by the successfully misled.

Yes, wet materials can deteriorate (metal, wood, etc). Wood will have the lignins digested by fungi, when it gets wet. Then it eventually dries out. Someone comes along and pokes a screwdriver through the punky, powdery wood and notes how dry it is; pronounces it a victim of "Dry Rot". <insert vigorous head shake here>
If you keep the wood protected, you will never have wood decay. There are trees that died hundreds of years ago in desert-type situations and are as strong as when they were alive...because they were always dry.

But, we have this exact same conversation on POA and other forums about every 2 years.

Dan Thomas said:
"Dry rot" is a misnomer. It still takes moisture to rot, and once rot starts, atmospheric moisture might be enough to keep it going.

Dry rot is the term given to brown rot decay caused by certain fungi that deteriorate timber in buildings and other wooden construction without an apparent source of moisture. The term is a misnomer[2] because all wood decaying fungi need a minimum amount of moisture before decay begins.[3] The decayed wood takes on a dark or browner crumbly appearance, with cubical like cracking or checking, that becomes brittle and can eventually crush the wood into powder. Chemically, wood attacked by dry rot fungi is decayed by the same process as other brown rot fungi. An outbreak of dry rot within a building can be an extremely serious infestation that is hard to eradicate, requiring drastic remedies to correct. Significant decay can cause instability and cause the structure to collapse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_rot

The fairings at the leading edge roots, against the fuselage, must be sealed exactly as the service manual stipulates. If there's no sealant, water gets into that wing and right up against the spars. If the sealant is applied all the way around and down the bottom, water that gets in there is trapped. If the wrong sealant is used, it can fail or crack or make removal difficult and expensive. Those fairings need to come off every annual to do the wooden wing AD. The sealant specified is the old dumdum stuff that never hardens. I encountered fairings glued on with construction adhesive. That caused some damage and necessary repairs, and it was obvious that nobody had been taking those fairings off to do the probe tests on the spar roots. It appears that nobody reads service manuals.
The sealant down the rest of the wing root has to be maintained, too.
Click to expand...
 
Frank Holbert on 160knots.com is an owner, and VERY avid supporter of the Viking.

He's a West Coast guy, but you can get in touch with him or browse his website.
 
One of our EAA members bought the company last year and talked about it at our May 2022 meeting. He owns a machine shop so he can make parts from the original plans. His partner runs a service center in Oklahoma specializing in Bellanca aircraft. https://bellancaaircraft.com
They also have a Facebook page with some info on repairs and upgrades they’ve made.
 
charheep said:
Is the insurance higher because of the wood and fabric?
Click to expand...

Speaking of which, I recently got a quote from Avemco, $1000 more than a similar hull valued Bonanza, $200 more than a Comanche 250.
 
They also have a fuel management system that is more complex than most singles. A lot of the accidents in SVs were from mis-managing the fuel system and running a tank dry. Early versions had as many as 5 fuel tanks and two fuel selectors.
 
Hello to all of the Bellanca fans and critics! As one of the owners of the Bellanca Aircraft factory I am happy to see so much dialogue on the Bellanca Viking and earlier models. I can certainly agree that these aircraft have their strengths and idiosyncrasies, many of which have been discussed above. Let me summarize:
Benefits
  • Safety of a full length tubular steel fuselage
  • Impressive control harmony and responsive flight characteristics
  • A wing that is extremely strong and dampens rough air due to the resilient properties of the wood spar
  • Fast
  • Economical to purchase based on market values
Liabilities
  • Wood & fabric require a unique level of care
  • Due to the low market value a large percentage of the fleet suffer from neglect & inadequate maintenance
  • Early models have a complex fuel management system
  • Aircraft must be stored in a hangar
  • Landing gear design has various deficiencies, requires careful maintenance
  • Pilots need to exercise the proper landing technique (not difficult)
Many insurance underwriters do not have good knowledge of the aircraft and therefore simply quote higher rates. However with the right insurance company there is no significant penalty compared to the mainline fleets.

Regarding support, there are several maintenance shops with Bellanca experience however finding the right shop is very important. Call me for recommendations. Regarding factory support, we are putting considerable time and financial resources into building spare parts inventories and providing customer support at different levels. For someone looking at acquiring a high performance aircraft, take a ride in a Bellanca and decide for yourself. As we say, a Bellanca is "At Home in the Air".

Rob Swanland
Bellanca Aircraft, Inc.
 
Flyhound said:
They also have a fuel management system that is more complex than most singles. A lot of the accidents in SVs were from mis-managing the fuel system and running a tank dry. Early versions had as many as 5 fuel tanks and two fuel selectors.
Click to expand...

And later ones fixed that. After they dropped the extra tanks, the number of fuel exhaustion accidents went way down.
 
Rob58 said:
Hello to all of the Bellanca fans and critics! As one of the owners of the Bellanca Aircraft factory I am happy to see so much dialogue on the Bellanca Viking and earlier models. I can certainly agree that these aircraft have their strengths and idiosyncrasies, many of which have been discussed above. Let me summarize:
Benefits
  • Safety of a full length tubular steel fuselage
  • Impressive control harmony and responsive flight characteristics
  • A wing that is extremely strong and dampens rough air due to the resilient properties of the wood spar
  • Fast
  • Economical to purchase based on market values
Liabilities
  • Wood & fabric require a unique level of care
  • Due to the low market value a large percentage of the fleet suffer from neglect & inadequate maintenance
  • Early models have a complex fuel management system
  • Aircraft must be stored in a hangar
  • Landing gear design has various deficiencies, requires careful maintenance
  • Pilots need to exercise the proper landing technique (not difficult)
Many insurance underwriters do not have good knowledge of the aircraft and therefore simply quote higher rates. However with the right insurance company there is no significant penalty compared to the mainline fleets.

Regarding support, there are several maintenance shops with Bellanca experience however finding the right shop is very important. Call me for recommendations. Regarding factory support, we are putting considerable time and financial resources into building spare parts inventories and providing customer support at different levels. For someone looking at acquiring a high performance aircraft, take a ride in a Bellanca and decide for yourself. As we say, a Bellanca is "At Home in the Air".

Rob Swanland
Bellanca Aircraft, Inc.
Click to expand...
Hello, I am looking to buy a Bellanca Super Viking. I am wondering what company you received your insurance through?
 
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