Why are Bonanzas so cheap?

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M1tchell

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M1tchell
Relatively speaking... I see decent looking V-tail bonanzas going for Cessna 150 money these days. I realize the price of cessnas is through the roof right now, but I'm surprised to see 150s listed for 30-50k and most bonanzas in the 30s.

I could imagine maintenance on a 70 year old complex aircraft would eat my lunch, but still...
 
As a thought exercise find a replacement ruddervater (magnesium) for a 35B? LMO when you find one. I’m a part owner of a v-tail, we love it and have it with dual G5s and a GFC500 AP but there are parts risks that come with our fun.


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I’m assuming you’re talking about early Bonanzas here. They have been inexpensive for a long time, for a reason. They have all the typical antique aircraft support problems without looking like an antique. I don’t think an early Bonanzas would provide the best first aircraft ownership experience but it would be a good option for an involved owner.

I think the early bonanzas are some of the nicest flying airplanes of the type. I owned one for close to a decade and still miss it from time to time.
 
Cheap?....so the Comanche guys can have a more affordable plane. lol ;)
 
At those prices you are talking about the older ones which come with ruddervator risk and high maintenance costs. I think Bonanzas tend to have perceived high maintenance costs in general. While they aren't cheap to fix, they don't seem to break too much if taken care of.

Overall entry level trainer prices have gone up far more than Bonanzas. I was looking for an arrow or lance, but found my 91 Bo for similar money. They are nice planes and I don't regret it at all. That said I wouldn't buy a vtail right now.
 
Straight tail Bonanzas - both 4 and 6 seaters - have exploded in price. V Tails have been cheap for a while, but especially since the Ruddervators got rare.
 
A few weeks ago I was considering the same questions. Another point folks here educated me on was something to do with an electric prop that's hard to get parts for....
On the surface, some of them surely do like a great buy
 
Brad W said:
A few weeks ago I was considering the same questions. Another point folks here educated me on was something to do with an electric prop that's hard to get parts for....
On the surface, some of them surely do like a great buy
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I forgot about the older E225 models with electric props. Those are apparently really a great prop, but th parts are hard to get
 
I fly an F35, E225-11, and electric prop. Cruises at 150kts on 10gph.
There are no AD-s on the Beech prop...you just need to grease the pitch change bearing every few years. You can convert to a Hartzell, but if it ain't broke....
I like the electric prop and the constant speed prop control...a knob with a detent for 2300 rpm. After takeoff..turn the knob until it clicks at the detent...you are set at 2300rpm....you don't have to twist a vernier and look at the tach.
 
I don't know where you guys are finding any cheap aircraft, much less cheap Bos.
 
The American Bonanza Society currently has offered a One Million Dollar cash prize to come up with a replacement ruddervator kit for the V-tail. What does that tell you about the difficulty of finding parts for that component, and the severity of impact to aircraft owners?

 
Genuinely curious about this ruddervator issue. Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the reason it's so difficult to make a replacement for the ruddervator? I would assume a large part of it has to do with the fact that FAA certification of ANYthing is expensive and daunting, but what are the more fundamental reasons for the difficulty?

To the uninformed like myself it seems like copying a design and rebuilding it should be ***relatively*** simple in this day and age. What's sooooooo unique about it?
 
CerroTorre said:
Genuinely curious about this ruddervator issue. Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the reason it's so difficult to make a replacement for the ruddervator? I would assume a large part of it has to do with the fact that FAA certification of ANYthing is expensive and daunting, but what are the more fundamental reasons for the difficulty?

To the uninformed like myself it seems like copying a design and rebuilding it should be ***relatively*** simple in this day and age. What's sooooooo unique about it?
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Low potential manufacturing volume ( onesy's ), limited sales availability ( how many are still flying, and will be in 10 years ), plus I'd expect there's some ( ROTFL ) liability cost involved. It would have to be a labor of love, unlikely there's any $$'s to be made or someone would be doing it.
 
correct me if im wrong, but I understand the problem is the alloy is no longer available and due to balance and structure issues, no other alloy will work.
 
Mxfarm said:
Low potential manufacturing volume ( onesy's ), limited sales availability ( how many are still flying, and will be in 10 years ), plus I'd expect there's some ( ROTFL ) liability cost involved. It would have to be a labor of love, unlikely there's any $$'s to be made or someone would be doing it.
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The million buck prize takes care of some/most/all of the setup and engineering costs for doing it. So the low volume shouldn't be nearly as big of an issue.
 
:DI think its as simple as cost of ownership. An old V-Tail Bonanza has high overall operating cost per hour. Compared to a C150, that is relatively low cost of ownership. It gets down to the demographic of the buyer. The buyer trying to find the cheapest plane for the money probably can't afford the high cost to operate an old complex airplane. That typical buyer probably can't afford a huge unexpected mechanical bill of the plane either. If the buyer can afford the higher operating cost, they probably buy a higher priced plane to start with. I talk from experience. When I was first starting out, my eyes were on the biggest and best plane that I had the cash to buy. It was a bad mistake because I couldn't afford to fly it.:D
 
unsafervguy said:
correct me if im wrong, but I understand the problem is the alloy is no longer available and due to balance and structure issues, no other alloy will work.
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I think you're right. Apparently the skin is magnesium and not aluminum, and no one has been able to build a non-magnesium replacement that meets the requirements.

Tim
 
timrb said:
I think you're right. Apparently the skin is magnesium and not aluminum, and no one has been able to build a non-magnesium replacement that meets the requirements.

Tim
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The engineering department at a Washington state university built one out of composite material. There test showed it was 20% stronger than the original.
 
CerroTorre said:
Genuinely curious about this ruddervator issue. Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the reason it's so difficult to make a replacement for the ruddervator? I would assume a large part of it has to do with the fact that FAA certification of ANYthing is expensive and daunting, but what are the more fundamental reasons for the difficulty?

To the uninformed like myself it seems like copying a design and rebuilding it should be ***relatively*** simple in this day and age. What's sooooooo unique about it?
Click to expand...

unsafervguy said:
correct me if im wrong, but I understand the problem is the alloy is no longer available and due to balance and structure issues, no other alloy will work.
Click to expand...

Magnesium is available, it is just expensive. Textron initially announced they'd stop making them, but started again. They are still very expensive. The problem is that no one has found a way to make them from aluminum and stay light enough with the requisite strength.

There is a very good argument that fabric would meet the requirements, but folks have resisted that to this point.
 
kyleb said:
The million buck prize takes care of some/most/all of the setup and engineering costs for doing it. So the low volume shouldn't be nearly as big of an issue.
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Not when your already >year out on production. The numbers don't work out to only make 25 of something if you can 2500, or 25000 of something. If it was that much of an opportunity, they'd have to beat them off w/a stick. I'd bet getting thru the FAA hoops wouldn't be an insignificant % of the 1mm.
 
Magnesium they can get, the treating process is the most difficult as the chemicals involved, from what I'm told, are banned by the EPA. So I beleive I read they get treated in Canada?? Textron made a small batch last year of 12 sets. Prices are high as to be expected. I beleive there will be a solution but when...hopefully before I ever need a pair...of ruddervators

The ruddervator issue is definitely real, however if you get a plane with perfect ruddervators you're likely to never have issue in this life barring a hangar rash. When I bought mine I ask Tom Turner over at ABS about them and how many the fleet go through in a year. He said on average 12 bonanzas need ruddervators a year and those are typically from very neglected planes. So a pair with no filiform on them likely will be fine if taken care of.

The earlier ones are cheaper as they are not the overly desirable for whatever reason..piano key switches, E- series engine, electric prop, slow, old...the S35 up through the V35B are not cheap at all! 6 figures mostly.

I'm going on year 3 with mine and nothing significant maintenance wise has cropped up (yet). They are built like a tank and can take a beating. Do not fly one unless you're prepared to buy it...trust me!
 
As somebody who has the lived experience of hangar rash, all I'll add is: hope's not a plan.
caveat emptor. *shrugs*
 
kyleb said:
The million buck prize takes care of some/most/all of the setup and engineering costs for doing it. So the low volume shouldn't be nearly as big of an issue.
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The Bo community writ-large has been working this problem for several years now, with somewhat advance notice replacement skins were EOL’d.

Textron has deep pockets and the IP; they don’t feel a cool million is enough for them to r&d an alternate solution. That should tell you everything you need to know.
 
The best insurance any V tail owner has is a hangar. On long trips I watch the weather closely and will have my V tail put in a hangar if the weather is going to be ugly.
 
Could it be that outside of PoA people see old Bo's as a bit overrated? :eek::popcorn::devil:
 
A Bo has always been what I wanted to step up to, and possibly could afford one. However, since it’s complex/high performance and I’m about to turn 70 it’ll be off limits due to how the insurance companies are upping fees for them now. I’ll be sticking to my fixed gear Sundowner.


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My old man sold his longtime 55 Bo' last year. New-ish prop, some new IFR avionics, meticulously maintained in every respect (it was his baby and he spared no expense). Sold to a Bay Area guy for I think maybe $35-40k? That dude got a great plane for a good price. Pretty sure my dad had put at least that much money into it in the last couple years alone. They're great planes, but I am biased, since it was my childhood ride and the first plane I ever flew (once I was a bit older). Probably not a good first plane for many, in spite of the cheap price tags. It ain't cheap to maintain properly (at least in terms of what I consider "cheap").
 
I loved my '59 K35 Bonanza. That model still had the lightweight airframe with shorter baggage area (fewer CG issues), but ample power, upgraded to the 260 hp IO-470-N, as in the N35 and P35 models. With no speed mods it would do 155 KTAS on 12 gph LOP.

It served us well for several years, with several trips between Washington State and Phoenix, and as far east as Kansas City. Then I decided to simplify my life and traded it in on a new CubCrafters Sport Cub.
 
I fly a 60 year old airplane. Tachometer cable went TU. Sourcing a replacement was, er...entertaining. I can only imagine trying to get parts for an 80 year old airplane. Add to that part of the airframe (the part most likely to corrode) can't be had at any price except off a wreck. Add to that it's a complex single with lots and lots of moving parts. Not for me.
 
steingar said:
I fly a 60 year old airplane. Tachometer cable went TU. Sourcing a replacement was, er...entertaining. I can only imagine trying to get parts for an 80 year old airplane. Add to that part of the airframe (the part most likely to corrode) can't be had at any price except off a wreck. Add to that it's a complex single with lots and lots of moving parts. Not for me.
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That's why I own a 50 year old Bonanza. Parts have never been difficult to find (fingers are crossed).
"Bonanza" is used to describe Beech models 33, 35 (the V-Tail models A through V) and 36. Heck there is even a Twin Bonanza that is closer to a King Air than a V-Tail. Bonanzas have been produced since the 50s and are (very sparingly) even being produced today. Just saying Bonanza is really not enough. You need to differentiate between at least model and probably also model year before making any statements about cost to fly or ability to service. They are all excellent airplanes that typically outperform their counterparts. Keep in mind that a model 35A is not a counterpart to something like an SR22.
 
Ed Haywood said:
The American Bonanza Society currently has offered a One Million Dollar cash prize to come up with a replacement ruddervator kit for the V-tail. What does that tell you about the difficulty of finding parts for that component, and the severity of impact to aircraft owners?

Click to expand...



Cue the Patey brothers. This would be an interesting project for them.
 
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