When are you officially IFR after departing VFR?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Mike21380, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Lots of places in the inter-mountain west with no radar coverage below 10,000-12,000. KBIH is 17,000. KELY is 13,000 yet the Digital Chart Supplement shows an "R" by "Salt Lake Center approach/departure control." Is that misleading, or what?
     
  2. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yeah...

    Remember the guy who took off GCN Rwy 3 IFR and flew runway heading straight through the SFAR expecting ABQ to vector him?
     
  3. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Or the Lear with Sinatra's mom aboard.
     
  4. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I said this previously and some goofball engineer proved me wrong.

    Actually unless you constrain your altitudes to below 18k or so. You are incorrect, I forget the exact altitude but somewhere around 18k you actually a majority of the airspace in the world is under radar coverage.
    But for practical purposes, I agree. :)

    Tim

    Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
     
  5. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    How does that work with most of the earth being oceans and most of the oceans have no radar coverage?

    I spend a lot of time flying non-radar in the mid-FL300s over the Gulf of Mexico and WATRS airspace between the east coast and Caribbean and that doesn't even get out to the "real" oceanic airspace.
     
  6. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Agreed, but I would also add that if a pilot is given a ‘hold for release’ and then takes off VFR planning to pick it up in the air, they are officially an a-hole.
     
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  7. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    No clue; a bunch of math geeks debated it and all ended up agreeing with him.

    Tim
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    And the C130 at Jackson Hole
     
  9. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    That is true for the continental U.S. and western Europe. OZ is covered, but mostly by ADS-B. Most of Africa has neither terminal nor en route radar. China has it on dense routes, but large areas with no radar. Same for eastern Russia, (except far east) Mongolia, etc.
     
  10. bkspero

    bkspero Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Maybe that's the way it should be based on the regulations, or the way its done in the Chicago TRACON, but at a non-towered airport in Central NJ near the outer ring of the NY Bravo it is commonplace for Clearance Delivery on the TRACON phone to provide a full route clearance ending with "hold for release". I repeat the clearance and if the weather allows for VFR to the initial altitude in the clearance I ask if I can depart VFR and activate the clearance in the air instead of holding for release. The response has always been yes. I then ask him to confirm that I should be squawking my assigned code and not 1200. Again the response has always been yes, squawk the assigned code. On take off I turn towards the initial fix and contact ATC on the assigned frequency as soon as there is a break and give them my altitude, location, and that I would like to activate my IFR clearance. The controller then responds with "radar contact, consider yourself IFR at this time." No full route clearance. Not even cleared to destination. Just radar contact, consider yourself IFR.

    This communications all happens in maybe 10 seconds of me talking and maybe 5 seconds of the controller's response. That's all the time they have. As I mentioned in my earlier note, I have never heard a NY TRACON controller in our sector provide a full route clearance in the air. Maybe late at night. But never when I've been flying. They are talking nearly non-stop routing traffic into the Bravo airports. And any gaps they have are only a few seconds long. No time for "Cleared destination, as filed...direct holly, direct molly, then as filed... etc climb and maintain 5000 expect 7000 in 10."

    Maybe if there were conflicting traffic they might respond differently to my request to activate my clearance. Maybe tell me to maintain VFR until the conflict resolves. I don't know as that has never happened to me (I don't fly IFR all that much, so I've done this maybe a dozen times with NY).

    I've also done the same thing once with the Philadelphia TRACON and once with the McGuire RAPCON. In those cases I filed from a fix in their respective airspaces (fixes that were located near the boundary of NY airspace). Phoned their Clearance Delivery desk and asked them if I could pick up my clearance on the ground, depart VFR (no delay), and activate the clearance in the air as I approached the departure waypoint...rather than picking up the clearance in the air. In both cases they told me that I could do that and confirmed that I should be squawking the assigned code. I contacted them as I approached their airspace. Was told that I was radar contact and consider myself IFR at that time. No full route clearance in the air.
     
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  11. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Definitely not - Radar contact just means radar contact, as others more qualified than I have said.

    You guys! At least post links to the accident reports...

    Sinatra's mom: https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=55869&key=0
    Jackson Hole C130: https://www.usdeadlyevents.com/1996...esidential-support-mission-jackson-hole-wy-9/

    That was an excellent story. Thanks for sharing it!

    The latter half of that is the important part, not the "Radar Contact." Sounds like nonstandard phraseology, though... You sure that's exactly what they said?
     
  12. IK04

    IK04 Line Up and Wait

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    If you received a clearance with a void time and were released, you are IFR as soon as you begin to move on the airport surface.
     
  13. bkspero

    bkspero Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I can't say with certainty that those were the exact words and the only exact words every time (...consider yourself IFR at this time), but I can say with certainty that those were the exact words more than once, that in all cases it was a short phrase confirming my change from VFR to IFR status at that time, and that the communication did not include the word "clearance", nor did it include either the destination or any of my waypoints (other than a possible position confirmation relative to the first waypoint...radar contact 6 south of XXX...consider yourself IFR at this time).
     
  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Not beginning to move. It's when you get the Clearance, engines started or not. You don't even need to be in the airplane yet. It's not exactly "..'you' are IFR..." but to ATC you are and they have to block the airspace
     
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  15. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I don’t care what all y’all are say’n.... you’re not IFR till you “accept” the clearance.

    When does that occur? Let’s think bout that....
     
  16. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    I can believe that. You and they had precoordinated the whole thing and were on the same page. There is no particular procedure to cover that scenario. If your Clearance had included some detailed right after take off instructions, I think the controller might have said a few more words. Or if you had called them while still below the MIA he may have said a few other things.

    EDIT: turns out there some 'particular procedures' at some places. See post # 61
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  17. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Now we're havin fun. Controller gives you the Clearance. He doesn't get a read back. Is that because you didn't get it and read it back? Or because your transmitter just went nips up?
     
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  18. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    The R just means it's a Radar Approach Control. I don't think any Radar Approach facility has Radar coverage to the ground through out the entire boundaries of their airspace. What would the cut off point be to decide if there is going to be an R or not? Here's an example of where a Radar Approach didn't get the R. It's at one of their satellite airports. 3S8, Grants Pass, OR. Cascade Approach is a Radar Approach Control. They are located at Eugene, KEUG. They have a Radar antenna their and at Medford, KMFR. Cascade Approach gets the R at EUG and MFR, but not at 3S8. I gotta agree the R at BIH and ELY is wrong. There are many Center controlled airports that don't show an R even though all US Centers are Radar facilities. RDM is an example
     
  19. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I would be more impressed if it had been a bunch of CFIs.
     
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  20. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, actually as soon as you take off. While you are on the ground you are subject to the void time expiring.
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    I’m down South for the winter and am looking in the Southwest Chart Supplement to see what’s new since I was down here last and find the SOLEDAD DEPARTURE for KMYF on page 436. It’s “for use with an IFR clearance.” It says this, “After departure fly heading 270 maintain VFR at or below 2,500’ MSL. Expect IFR activation and climb clearance 3NM West of KMYF. Reciept of a climb clearance constitutes activation of IFR clearance.”

    There are others. COZY ONE VFR DEPARTURE at KASE. Page 433 of the Southwest Supplement.
    Southeast: AIR DEVIL DEPARTURE at KLOU and SHERIDAN/SHORELINE DEPARTURE at KHWO, pages 442 and 443.
    Northeast: DALTON 2 DEPARTURE PROCEDURE at KTEB, page 434.
    East Central: CABAA VISUAL DEPARTURE at KPWK, pages 392-393.

    So there are some ‘procedures’ where you get your clearance on the ground, depart VFR then when they’re ready to, ATC ‘activates’ your clearance with just a couple words. At all of them except the one at KPWK, they do it by simply assigning you an altitude. At KPWK it says “ATC will advise activation of IFR Clearance.” @Radar Contact , how long has this thing been around?

    Thought I'd page y'all who've been participating in this thread seeing as how it's been awhile and you may just not be caring about it anymore. Figured you'd find this interesting. @Mike21380 @Larry in TN @frfly172 @Ryanb @genna @James331 @Velocity173 @aterpster @midwestpa24 @midlifeflyer @Checkout_my_Six @Palmpilot @SbestCFII @RussR @asicer @flyingcheesehead @bkspero @flyingron
     
  22. IK04

    IK04 Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, that is correct. I was thinking of the conditions for accident reporting if a mishap occurs. In the "type operation" box, it will say "IFR" no matter what.
     
  23. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I was generally aware these existed - specific procedures which include a VFR segment. And, of course, in these, they tell you the answer to the topic question.

    Interesting what one can find browsing the Chart Supplement, ain't it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  24. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    San Carlos (SQL) could use one of those.

    "Cessna 12345, San Carlos Ground, cleared to the Half Moon Bay Airport. On departure, fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within two miles of the airport, for radar vectors to Woodside, direct Tails, direct. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100 until crossing the Oakland 165 radial. Then climb and maintain 2,100. Expect 5,000 five minutes after departure. Norcal Departure Control frequency 135.65. Squawk 1234."​
     
  25. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    "Maintain VFR conditions" isn't the same as "Maintain VFR."
     
  26. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    The difference being?
     
  27. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    "Maintain VFR" means you are operating under visual flight rules.

    "Maintain VFR conditions" means you are being instructed to maintain VFR cloud clearances, but you are otherwise operating under an IFR clearance (VFR On Top is an example)
     
  28. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    Is IFR separation being provided on these IFR procedures which have a segment where you must maintain VFR conditions?
     
  29. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It’s similar to VFR on top but not the same. “Maintain VFR conditions” is given by ATC for an aircraft requesting a VFR climb / descent or for noise abatement.

    VFR on top is for an aircraft that will be operating IMC for a period of time in the climb and then once on top instructed “maintain VFR on top.”
     
  30. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yes. Except for Luv’s example above.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  31. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    7110.65 uses the terms interchangeably, but excludes VFR on top. (Chapter 7 and the P/C Glossary.)
     
  32. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Yes. I worded that badly. I meant VFR on Top as another example of VFR conditions while on an IFR flight plan.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  33. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Not completely. "Maintain VFR" is standard fare for VFR flight following and practice instrument approaches while operating under VFR. "Maintain VFR conditions" is more common for someone operating under IFR, as in @Velocity173 's example of a VFR climb on an instrument flight plan. There may one or two which are close, but most of the 7110.65 examples fall into one or the other category.
     
  34. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I think they are interchangeable on an IFR flight plan (excluding VFR on Top):

     
  35. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Then, there is this, which further muddies the water, especially c.:

     
  36. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Get a hold of NORCAL, show them the examples. Maybe they'll look into building some of those in their territory.
     
  37. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    not during the time you are maintaining VFR. That's the point. If they had to separate you then, there would be no point. Just like VFR OTP
     
  38. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I understand the definition of "VFR conditions." When I said there was a difference between "maintain VFR" (for VFR ops) and "maintain VFR conditions" (for IFR ops) I was referring to the dozen or so examples in the 7110.65 (discounting the VFR-on-Top ones).

    In addition to the one already posted, good one is the query to pop-up requests for IFR clearances, in which ATC asks (using the example form the AT Handbook at paragraph 4-2-8.d.), "November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?". Pilot says, "yes," issue the IFR clearance; pilot says "no" don't issue the IFR clearance. And yes, I know ATC will sometimes ask that question of an IFR operation. But it's formal use under the Order is for VFR pop-ups."

    On the flip side is the only two examples of "maintain VFR conditions" at 7-1-2, which clearly contemplate IFR flights.

    It's really just semantics, but I've discovered semantics tend to be important in ATC communications.
     
  39. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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  40. sonopoa

    sonopoa Pre-Flight

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    Check out this video on youtube.

    The pilot regulary flies from Auburn (KAUN) to Oakland (KOAK). On that flight weather permitting he often files a IFR flight plan, departs the non towered field vfr and picks up his ifr in the air from socal. That video is an example. (You need to watch on the youtube site as he has disabled watching from other sites.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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