What would you have done-had "stage check"

jordane93 said:
I wouldn't be disappointed. They are making a PIC decision. If it's a little windy out, depending on where my student is in his training, we'll cancel or we'll go up. If I want my student to get some landing practice and he is not practicing landings for the first time, we'll go up in 20kt winds. I always have to students text or call me before I leave to talk about weather and NOTAMs. I'm not always going to be there to hold their hand so I let them make decisions to go or not go pretty early. Obviously if it's 500ft ceilings and gusting to 40kts and they still want to go, I'll step in and cancel but I ultimately let them make the decisions because that is what they'll be doing once they get their license.
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I just don't think it's appropriate for a pre-solo student (or even a pre-solo XC student) to be canceling flights for weather when there is clearly a learning opportunity to be had. It is my decision as the instructor to make those decisions. If all my students canceled when the winds were 20 knots..... well most wouldn't fly ever. If I was allowed to cancel every flight as a private student that I felt was too windy I still wouldn't have my private.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I just don't think it's appropriate for a pre-solo student (or even a pre-solo XC student) to be canceling flights for weather when there is clearly a learning opportunity to be had. It is my decision as the instructor to make those decisions. If all my students canceled when the winds were 20 knots..... well most wouldn't fly ever. If I was allowed to cancel every flight as a private student that I felt was too windy I still wouldn't have my private.
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So when is it appropriate for the student to make go/no go decisions? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious. For me, lessons leading up to the solo I'll have the student make the decision. Like you, if we can learn something from the lesson even if it's windy, I want my student to go up. Now if it's gusting to 30kts and all we're doing is getting bounced around, I don't feel like wasting my student's time and money because chances are, he won't learn anything.
 
jordane93 said:
So when is it appropriate for the student to make go/no go decisions? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious. For me, lessons leading up to the solo I'll have the student make the decision. Like you, if we can learn something from the lesson even if it's windy, I want my student to go up. Now if it's gusting to 30kts and all we're doing is getting bounced around, I don't feel like wasting my student's time and money because chances are, he won't learn anything.
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When you're going up solo.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I would be very disappointed if my student canceled a flight with myself or another instructor because he felt the wind was out of his or her limits. Not really the students place to make decisions without consulting it with the CFI. IMO.
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Would you be disappointed if he called it without consulting a CFI who couldn't be reached? Remember, the guy he was flying with wasn't available. In the absence of CFI guidance, he made a call. That is what a pilot should do.
 
The OP tried to reach the CFI, that's good. The CFI was probably getting a haircut, because the last student also canceled rather than risk failing a stage check in windy conditions, and couldn't be reached. So, the next lesson will get canceled when the CFI is out washing the car or in the bathroom or at lunch or...

Nonsense, the inmates don't run the asylum. Allowances are made for wind during flight tests, so too for stage checks. Fear of failure is no excuse to treat the CFI like crap. That said, if the OP is drunk or sick, sure, cancel. Otherwise, go with the flow.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
The OP tried to reach the CFI, that's good. The CFI was probably getting a haircut, because the last student also canceled rather than risk failing a stage check in windy conditions, and couldn't be reached. So, the next lesson will get canceled when the CFI is out washing the car or in the bathroom or at lunch or...

Nonsense, the inmates don't run the asylum. Allowances are made for wind during flight tests, so too for stage checks. Fear of failure is no excuse to treat the CFI like crap. That said, if the OP is drunk or sick, sure, cancel. Otherwise, go with the flow.

dtuuri
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So now we are calling students inmates in an asylum? And who treated the CFI like crap?
 
dtuuri said:
Canceling on the day of the lesson is crap, exceptions noted above. If the weather is unflyable, it's the CFI's responsibility to call the student.
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I will disagree with that. If the weather is marginal there's nothing wrong with letting the student decide. No need to force the student to fly in conditions they don't want to fly in. The CFI could make an argument for why it might be a good idea, but the student is the customer.

But that's irrelevant here anyway. The OP's CFI was not available to contact so the student made a decision that he didn't want to do the stage check. Nothing wrong with that.
 
dtuuri said:
Canceling on the day of the lesson is crap, exceptions noted above. If the weather is unflyable, it's the CFI's responsibility to call the student.
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No. A student pilot must learn how to make those decisions.

It's the CFI's responsibility to make sure the decision is reasonable, not to make it in the first place.

I have NEVER had an instructor in primary, advanced, or CAP training make that decision for me. Sometimes my decision includes "I wouldn't do this solo, but with an instructor aboard …" which allows the instructor to inject personal minimums. None has ever overridden.

Even the time I had a right seater who couldn't keep his hands off the controls (and an instructor in the back seat), it was my decision to continue to land when he did it on short final. The instructor tore the right seater a couple of new orifices after shutdown (I've never seen her that mad, before or since), but nothing happened in flight.
 
The student should have shown up for the lesson and discussed the weather with the CFI. His "attempt" to call is a feeble excuse.

The weather determination is not a unilateral decision by the student.

If the student were honorable, he would send the CFI a crisp $100 bill.

Otherwise, he should be billed, or expelled.
 
jordane93 said:
So when is it appropriate for the student to make go/no go decisions? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious. For me, lessons leading up to the solo I'll have the student make the decision. Like you, if we can learn something from the lesson even if it's windy, I want my student to go up. Now if it's gusting to 30kts and all we're doing is getting bounced around, I don't feel like wasting my student's time and money because chances are, he won't learn anything.
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They can make decisions when they solo. Not when they don't want to perform poorly on a measly stage check. I did my private part 141. Stage checks are just another LESSON with a different CFI to make sure the primary CFI didn't miss anything big. It's almost more of a check for the CFI than the student. And didn't the METAR in question show just 20 knots? A pre-solo student should be flying in 20 knot winds. You never know what could happen or where you could get stuck.

I just don't think a pre-solo student has the knowledge to make a good go/no-go decision. Especially if it's not black and white like "IFR/VFR". But if he's only flown in 22 knots of wind and it's 25 knots that is no reason to cancel.

I teach my students to be good pilots. I don't teach students to fly only to pass stage checks and checkrides.
 
MAKG1 said:
No. A student pilot must learn how to make those decisions.
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How is he supposed to "learn how" to make weather decisions if he doesn't show for his lessons?

This thread is not about "weather decisions," it is about the morality of stiffing the CFI. :nono:
 
kgruber said:
How is he supposed to "learn how" to make weather decisions if he doesn't show for his lessons?

This thread is not about "weather decisions," it is about the morality of stiffing the CFI. :nono:
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As far as the original poster goes, you are assuming facts not in evidence.
 
Agree with kgruber and Mir - the student should show up for the lesson unless otherwise instructed.

Agreed with it back when I was first a student. Still agree now as a once-again student.

If the wx isn't suitable (a conversation to be had with the instructor), there's still lots to be learned on the ground.
And, the student can still learn to make the go/no-go decision ... even better with guidance from the CFI about the whats, whys, and whens.
 
kgruber said:
How is he supposed to "learn how" to make weather decisions if he doesn't show for his lessons?

This thread is not about "weather decisions," it is about the morality of stiffing the CFI. :nono:
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Since we're blindly making assumptions - Lets just assume the CFI attempted to call the student at the exact same time to cancel due to high winds. Unfortunately, the simultaneous call resulted in failed attempts.

Moving on..
 
Z06_Mir said:
They can make decisions when they solo. Not when they don't want to perform poorly on a measly stage check. I did my private part 141. Stage checks are just another LESSON with a different CFI to make sure the primary CFI didn't miss anything big. It's almost more of a check for the CFI than the student. And didn't the METAR in question show just 20 knots? A pre-solo student should be flying in 20 knot winds. You never know what could happen or where you could get stuck.

I just don't think a pre-solo student has the knowledge to make a good go/no-go decision. Especially if it's not black and white like "IFR/VFR". But if he's only flown in 22 knots of wind and it's 25 knots that is no reason to cancel.

I teach my students to be good pilots. I don't teach students to fly only to pass stage checks and checkrides.
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You don't think a pre solo student has the knowledge to make a go/no go decision:confused: My students are capable of making them.
 
bflynn said:
Would you be disappointed if he called it without consulting a CFI who couldn't be reached? Remember, the guy he was flying with wasn't available. In the absence of CFI guidance, he made a call. That is what a pilot should do.
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Because he was up doing a stage check with another student? Why should he be available? He had an appointment set with the OP, and knew that was when he would have to be available to the OP.
 
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