What would you have done-had "stage check"

Which airport are you flying out of? I'm based at IWS, but opted not to fly today just because I didn't want to get beat to hell. At IWS, the surface winds were right down the runway, at least.
 
What would I have done? I would have cancelled the stage check and gone and flew in that stuff to get the practice.

Don't limit yourself to CAVU days. That will turn you into a fair weather flyer, kind of like a sailor who only goes out on perfect days. You ought to be able to handle all the conditions that the airplane can handle and you should train for them if you can't.
 
Stage check fright? OMG, what is the aviation world coming to? I'd have showed up, told the CFI I can't handle this wind, so I'd cancel if I were solo. Then I'd go with his/her decision. A stage check is as much about teaching you how to fly with somebody else as anything. When I started taking lessons I was 15 and had 18 different instructors' names in my logbook by the time I earned my private license. Things were different (better) then.

dtuuri
 
kgruber said:
How do you mean....."I cancelled?"

Did you call the stage check CFI and get his input?

Or did you just call the FBO, and leave the CFI out in the cold?
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if you had read my entire posting,you would have seen:

"its my practice when there are unusual weather conditions to communicate with my instructor(on phone) prior to lessons to determine go/no go"


"I couldnt reach the CFi today"

and another poster was correct. you are beginning to come across as as an a"""""e
 
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Stop confusing this pile-on party with facts. :wink2:

While I agree that you need to fly in winds outside your comfort zone so that someday it will be well within your comfort zone, if you can't get in touch with the instructor, as a solo pilot, it is up to you as PIC to cancel. You did the right thing.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Stop confusing this pile-on party with facts. :wink2:

While I agree that you need to fly in winds outside your comfort zone so that someday it will be well within your comfort zone, if you can't get in touch with the instructor, as a solo pilot, it is up to you as PIC to cancel. You did the right thing.
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Yes I appreciate that. I am pre solo, hope to do that fairly soon.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
This was a stage check. It is all about the comfort zone of the student. He is supposed to be starting to show good jilidgement. If the conditions are more than what he thinks he can handle, he is well within his rights to cancel.
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What is a "stage check"?

It is a student pilot in an airplane with a CFI, also known as a lesson, or learning opportunity.

Why any student or instructor would encourage avoiding opportunities to learn is baffling.

Hell, when I took my check ride, I would guess 50-75% of it was the Examiner teaching me items to make me a better pilot. If an examiner can teach, I would hope a "stage checker" could teach, and is not expected to be ballast/evaluator.

Go fly.
 
Uh huh....well then re-read my first sentence in my post. That is the ONLY way to feel more comfortable with your skills in an airplane is to fly with an instructor in wind or conditions that are outside your comfort zone. I have a good friend who is an instructor and he had a student who was terrified of turbulence. In steep turns the student would grab his seat and lock up.

They flew in those conditions enough that the student became more comfortable knowing that the wing wasn't going to fall off or the plane wasn't going to fall out of the sky. That student eventually soloed a few weeks ago. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you'll never get comfortable in less than perfect conditions unless you fly in less that perfect conditions.

I only have 135 hours and there are still a LOT of conditions that I'm not one hundred percent comfortable with. As they say, a private pilot's license is a license to learn and I do that every time I go up.

I had a chat with the chief pilot at a prominent school here in Tucson. I still hadn't got my PPL at the time but admitted to him that I still experienced trepidation every time I did the pre-flight on my plane. Once i got up in the air I was fine...it was just the anticipation of going up on one of my practice solo flights that concerned me. My question to him was "at what point are you completely comfortable with flying?" What he told me was very valuable. He said, "Most pilots don't START getting comfortable until they reach 150 hours. They get more comfortable at 250 hours because they now know the airplane and their skills are getting better. At 300 hours they become a gorilla."

So you can see where I am at 135 hours. Admit your reservations and concerns to your CFI. It will help you and most importantly it will help THEM help you. Good luck.
 
JoseCuervo said:
What is a "stage check"?
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Who knows what it means at this student's school. I believe that at a 141 school it's an evaluation determining whether or not the student is ready to go on to the next step (solo for the OP).

JoseCuervo said:
Hell, when I took my check ride, I would guess 50-75% of it was the Examiner teaching me items to make me a better pilot. If an examiner can teach, I would hope a "stage checker" could teach, and is not expected to be ballast/evaluator.
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Technically, the examiner is not supposed to teach, but in reality some of them do, especially for the early certificates such as private. Judgment is also being evaluated, and if the OP thought the winds were too high I have no problem with that.
 
Everskyward said:
Who knows what it means at this student's school. I believe that at a 141 school it's an evaluation determining whether or not the student is ready to go on to the next step (solo for the OP).
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And, at the end of the day, it is logged as "dual received" and carries a CFI's signature in the student's logbook.

Almost makes me think it is a teaching opportunity.



Everskyward said:
Technically, the examiner is not supposed to teach, but in reality some of them do, especially for the early certificates such as private. Judgment is also being evaluated, and if the OP thought the winds were too high I have no problem with that.
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My examiner was about 100 years old, gave Orville and Wilbur their first check rides. .... He did things his way.

He was kind of a local legend. WWII pilot, flew B17's, DC-3s all the way up to 727's. Etc...etc... When I rode with him, he was crippled up, barely could climb in and out of the plane, but was completely "young" with a yoke and you couldn't help but learn from him.
 
classicrock said:
if you had read my entire posting,you would have seen:

"its my practice when there are unusual weather conditions to communicate with my instructor(on phone) prior to lessons to determine go/no go"


"I couldnt reach the CFi today"

and another poster was correct. you are beginning to come across as as an a"""""e
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Understood. You "stiffed" your flight instructor and are rounding up other lowlifes to condone your action.:yes:
 
JoseCuervo said:
And, at the end of the day, it is logged as "dual received" and carries a CFI's signature in the student's logbook.

Almost makes me think it is a teaching opportunity.
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So? Sure it might have been a learning opportunity but one of the lessons it's important to learn is having the backbone to say "no" if you are uncomfortable with the situation.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
This was a stage check. It is all about the comfort zone of the student. He is supposed to be starting to show good jilidgement. If the conditions are more than what he thinks he can handle, he is well within his rights to cancel.
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I find this post at odds with your chosen signature, copied below.

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.

-Helen Keller

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I'm not seeing it, but so be it.
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You said the student was right to cancel if he wasn't comfortable, yet every post you write is tagged with quotes from people saying things like "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." You don't see the humor there, and a little contradiction? Seems like a man who indicated that the quote is something he believes in perhaps might give others the impression that he advocates stepping out of one's comfort zone now and then. :lol:
 
Lachlan said:
You said the student was right to cancel if he wasn't comfortable, yet every post you write is tagged with quotes from people saying things like "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." You don't see the humor there, and a little contradiction? Seems like a man who indicated that the quote is something he believes in perhaps might give others the impression that he advocates stepping out of one's comfort zone now and then. :lol:
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I agree. I think in this case, where the CFI (or check airman for the stage check) was PIC, there was clearly no safety issue, only an opportunity to learn. So those quotes would certainly apply here, and "stepping out of your comfort zone" (safely) is equivalent to "no pain no gain" in physical pursuits.
I can relate to my own recent situation as a post-solo student glider pilot, when we were scheduled to fly dual and I could see it was going to be windier than my solo limits. I considered cancelling, but showed up anyway, and had the best flight of my life ever (in any type aircraft), when my instructor had me head for the nearby ridge and fly it with the wind nearly perpendicular to it. What an amazing experience!
 
kgruber said:
Understood. You "stiffed" your flight instructor and are rounding up other lowlifes to condone your action.:yes:
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Guess that whole "get rid of the SZ to improve civility" thing still needs some work.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not on a Checkride.
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Who said anything about a check ride? This entire thread is about a student pilot who flies at a club that requires students to have a phase check conducted by a CFI other than the student's primary CFI. This practice is quite common in flying clubs and Part 141 schools. For a check ride (at the private pilot level, at least) the student pilot is PIC and the examiner is an observer only, unless and until certain negative events transpire. A phase check is logged as dual time, and is therefore a learning situation, no ifs, ands or buts. :wink2:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not on a Checkride.
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It was not a check ride.

It was an hour in an airplane with a different instructor than normal, to be logged as "dual received", also known as a learning opportunity.

Sounds like the OP is about 1/2 way thru his requirements for hours of dual. If he continues to "decision make" all of the opportunities to fly with some turbulence, or a bit of wind, he will end up on his own when he finally encounters those conditions.
 
A Stage Check is still instruction. It is NOT a checkride.

Nothing in the poster's comments indicate he STIFFED the instructor. If he just failed to appear for the lesson, that would be stiffing him. Presumably he communicated with the school (even though he was not able to discuss the issue directly with the instructor) that he wasn't going to make the lesson. Part 141 schools are supposed to act professionally as a unit rather than a bunch of rogue instructors.
 
kgruber said:
The OP should be charged for two hours of flight instruction for frivolous cancellation.
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So does this mean that the OP should be encouraged to go flying well beyond his comfort zone? Because that's EXACTLY what will happen next time he's presented with weather beyond his capabilities. I'm reminded of the JFK, Jr. accident.

Seems to me it's good ADM, and a great opportunity for a lesson about setting and establishing limits.

Greg Bockelman said:
This was a stage check. It is all about the comfort zone of the student. He is supposed to be starting to show good jilidgement. If the conditions are more than what he thinks he can handle, he is well within his rights to cancel.
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Agree

And looking at the overall tone of this thread, I shake my head and see why so many folks have decided not to participate here. Why can't we have a reasonable discussion without needing to attack others? I have limited time to participate online any more, why would I go to a forum where folks are constantly attacking each other? I'd watch MSNBC or Fox News if I wanted that....
 
wsuffa said:
So does this mean that the OP should be encouraged to go flying well beyond his comfort zone? Because that's EXACTLY what will happen next time he's presented with weather beyond his capabilities. I'm reminded of the JFK, Jr. accident.

Seems to me it's good ADM, and a great opportunity for a lesson about setting and establishing limits.



Agree

And looking at the overall tone of this thread, I shake my head and see why so many folks have decided not to participate here. Why can't we have a reasonable discussion without needing to attack others? I have limited time to participate online any more, why would I go to a forum where folks are constantly attacking each other? I'd watch MSNBC or Fox News if I wanted that....
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Post of the day. Maybe year.
 
I would have gone up.

During all of my training if my CFI was comfortable we flew, you're learning how to be a pilot, this isn't a amusment ride, your happiness and comfort don't make the top 3 important factors of a flight.

This isn't golf, tennis or some such activity, even if you're just looking to be a "hobby pilot" you're still going to be PIC of a aircraft and should be able to handle the aircraft in less than ideal conditions, even for the disillusioned "fair weather flyer" conditions change and chit happens, your job as a student is to learn from your CFI how to deal with it.

If I never flew when there was a airmet I probably would still be working on building hours for my CPL, a sigmet, yeah sure, don't go launch on a cross country, but the conditions you mentioned were ideal for learning, which is what you're paying for.
 
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wsuffa said:
So does this mean that the OP should be encouraged to go flying well beyond his comfort zone? Because that's EXACTLY what will happen next time he's presented with weather beyond his capabilities. I'm reminded of the JFK, Jr. accident.



Seems to me it's good ADM, and a great opportunity for a lesson about setting and establishing limits.







Agree



And looking at the overall tone of this thread, I shake my head and see why so many folks have decided not to participate here. Why can't we have a reasonable discussion without needing to attack others? I have limited time to participate online any more, why would I go to a forum where folks are constantly attacking each other? I'd watch MSNBC or Fox News if I wanted that....
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Why would the student have a "comfort zone"? He says this is his first stage check, and he is pre-solo. To date, every flight has been with a CFI making sure no metal gets bent. Just as this flight would have been.

How many hours do you think the OP has?
Think he has 10 hours of dual, to date? He is then halfway complete on his dual, and still insisting on only flying in fair weather, no X-winds, no turbulence.

When will he get exposed to these conditions in the next 10 hours?
 
JoseCuervo said:
Why would the student have a "comfort zone"? He says this is his first stage check, and he is pre-solo. To date, every flight has been with a CFI making sure no metal gets bent. Just as this flight would have been.

How many hours do you think the OP has?
Think he has 10 hours of dual, to date? He is then halfway complete on his dual, and still insisting on only flying in fair weather, no X-winds, no turbulence.

When will he get exposed to these conditions in the next 10 hours?
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If it's his first stage check, it's probably a review of the most basic flying skills like maintaining level altitude, level turns, etc. Good call on canceling the stage check as busting it would have required him repeating it and passing before going on. There will be better opportunity to learn how to deal with strong winds and turbulence once he has a few more tools to work with. As some have mentioned this was an excellent opportunity to discuss ADM. For what it's worth IMHO, the OP rates an A for his decision. Eventually he will be entrusted with the lives of passengers and if he isn't comfortable making a flight for any reason, it will be his duty to cancel or postpone the flight regardless of the pressure others put upon him.
 
Witmo said:
If it's his first stage check, it's probably a review of the most basic flying skills like maintaining level altitude, level turns, etc. Good call on canceling the stage check as busting it would have required him repeating it and passing before going on. There will be better opportunity to learn how to deal with strong winds and turbulence once he has a few more tools to work with. As some have mentioned this was an excellent opportunity to discuss ADM. For what it's worth IMHO, the OP rates an A for his decision. Eventually he will be entrusted with the lives of passengers and if he isn't comfortable making a flight for any reason, it will be his duty to cancel or postpone the flight regardless of the pressure others put upon him.
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How many hours do you think the OP has?

How many more hours of dual do you think he has coming?

What is the fear of "Failing" a stage check?




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JoseCuervo said:
How many hours do you think the OP has?

How many more hours of dual do you think he has coming?

What is the fear of "Failing" a stage check?
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Just because you think you might have made a different decision than the OP doesn't mean the OP's decision was wrong. It's not a good idea to criticize other people when they make a more conservative decision than you think you might have made.
 
Everskyward said:
Just because you think you might have made a different decision than the OP doesn't mean the OP's decision was wrong. It's not a good idea to criticize other people when they make a more conservative decision than you think you might have made.
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I am not criticizing his decision.

I am just wondering why he was making a decision.

If his instructor actually wanted to punch a hole in a cloud, we would think that was good training. But still outside his comfort zone.

If his instructor wanted to do some spin training, we would think that was a good idea, even if outside the OP's comfort zone.

For a pre-solo student, everything should be outside their comfort zone. That is why they have instructors with them, and pay those instructors good money to make good decisions for them.


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But this wasn't an instructional flight, per se. It was more like a Checkride. At least it felt that way to the student.

I just wish everyone would quit piling on the student for his decision. It was his to make and it was the right one for him.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
But this wasn't an instructional flight, per se. It was more like a Checkride. At least it felt that way to the student.



I just wish everyone would quit piling on the student for his decision. It was his to make and it was the right one for him.
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Nobody is having a checkride pre-solo.

It was not, "more like a checkride".

If anything, it was more of a supervisor activity so they can see if his CFI was actually doing his job appropriately.

It now, apparently, the student cannot get any more instruction to move forward, and untill they reschedule a second instructor to give this "checkride".

This is the start of those threads that are "three months later and 30 hours, I have not solo'd". And then another one, complaining about the cost of the 80 hours of instruction and no checkride.

What was the downside of continuing on?


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Everskyward said:
Just because you think you might have made a different decision than the OP doesn't mean the OP's decision was wrong. It's not a good idea to criticize other people when they make a more conservative decision than you think you might have made.
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Greg Bockelman said:
But this wasn't an instructional flight, per se. It was more like a Checkride. At least it felt that way to the student. I just wish everyone would quit piling on the student for his decision. It was his to make and it was the right one for him.
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In case you missed it, the title of this thread invited the voicing of opinions that differed from the original poster's decision. :goofy:

Go Broncos!
 
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All the runways in the area are 34/16 33/15 So the wind was straight down the runway. I started training about this time and that is what the winds will be for the next several months in SE Texas. Spring flying in Texas. They will make your short field awesome. Add a bit of speed for the gusts and you will be fine. Even with a stage check the CFI are still there to keep you safe. They get the gusty things and will teach you through it. Go up and do slow flight and you can get the plane going backwards.
Have fun you are learning
 
Lachlan said:
In case you missed it, the title of this thread invited the voicing of opinions that differed from the original poster's decision. :goofy:

Go Broncos!
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Nothing wrong with people stating what they would have done themselves, but it went well beyond that.
 
I would be very disappointed if my student canceled a flight with myself or another instructor because he felt the wind was out of his or her limits. Not really the students place to make decisions without consulting it with the CFI. IMO.
 
Slight tangent, are you part 141? If not I would've told them to keep there stage check.


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Z06_Mir said:
I would be very disappointed if my student canceled a flight with myself or another instructor because he felt the wind was out of his or her limits. Not really the students place to make decisions without consulting it with the CFI. IMO.
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I wouldn't be disappointed. They are making a PIC decision. If it's a little windy out, depending on where my student is in his training, we'll cancel or we'll go up. If I want my student to get some landing practice and he is not practicing landings for the first time, we'll go up in 20kt winds. I always have to students text or call me before I leave to talk about weather and NOTAMs. I'm not always going to be there to hold their hand so I let them make decisions to go or not go pretty early. Obviously if it's 500ft ceilings and gusting to 40kts and they still want to go, I'll step in and cancel but I ultimately let them make the decisions because that is what they'll be doing once they get their license.
 
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