What should spin training include for CFI?

[Jereme Carne]

Maybe some of you more experienced acro/ CFI guys could help me understand something. Everyone always says "go out and get good spin training for your CFI endorsement". Okay but what does include?

I went up with my CFI in the RV-7A I built and we did quite a few spins and explored things a bit. I actually went up by myself first because I got spin training for my PPL in a 152 back in the day and feel totally confident in recovery from a typical spin and find them fun.

Sooooo what am I missing here in what is called "good" spin training? I hear about guys going up for 4-5 flights to get spin training. I assume they are exploring things like what anti vs pro spin aileron does, elevator movement, etc. but I'm struggling to see how it would take 4-5 flights to get a good spin training. Thoughts?

 

[dmspilot]

Perhaps it would be easier to describe bad spin training. Many CFI candidates go up, do a couple 1-turn spins in a 172, and get an endorsement. Seems like you already have had good training.

 

[rhkennerly]

I think you got good training, assuming variety. While power off, base to final spins seem to be the most common, I think the departure over an obstacle with a turn to be the most sneaky. High power, High AOA, Low Speed and greenery flashing by the side window, by can lead to a really sneaky and whip sharp spin. So if you practiced those spins at altitude, I can’t imagine you needing more.

 

[Pinecone]

What is REQUIRED? To do at least one spin and the instructor sign it off as spin training for the CFI.

When I did my CFI, I had done aerobatic training at the same FBO. I had done spins in the T-37 in USAF UPT. And I still needed to take a short dual flight, with the same guy who taught me aerobatics, to do a few spins and get the endorsement.

BTW, if you every spin a Tomahawk, do NOT look back at the tail. And for the most fun, try to find one with the original configuration without inboard stall strips. They have a SPIRITED spin entry.

 

[RussR]

Maybe some of you more experienced acro/ CFI guys could help me understand something. Everyone always says "go out and get good spin training for your CFI endorsement". Okay but what does include?

I went up with my CFI in the RV-7A I built and we did quite a few spins and explored things a bit. I actually went up by myself first because I got spin training for my PPL in a 152 back in the day and feel totally confident in recovery from a typical spin and find them fun.

Sooooo what am I missing here in what is called "good" spin training? I hear about guys going up for 4-5 flights to get spin training. I assume they are exploring things like what anti vs pro spin aileron does, elevator movement, etc. but I'm struggling to see how it would take 4-5 flights to get a good spin training. Thoughts?

It seems like you got good spin training. My spin training was one flight, 0.9 hours, 3 or 4 spins, in a 152 that would barely spin unless really coaxed to do so with a shot of power and rudder at just the right time.

I do not consider it to be "good" spin training.

 

[Brad W]

I vaguely remember a video on youtube maybe a year or so ago by Spencer Suderman on spins. He was up in an Extra and demonstrated a few things about them. I remember thinking it was a pretty good lesson and much better than the spin training I did for my PPL...we did a whole bunch of spins on several occasions...probably more than the norm, but there was no real lesson other than practicing the recovery technique. There was nothing scenario based (such as base to final turn, etc...). Just a short video.... so yeah, only one flight or maybe two for practice I would think.....

I remember once I think after I had my PPL, not my usual instructor was bored one day when I showed up to rent for a flight...he asked if I wanted to do some spins. (it was one of those come along as a friend, no charge non-instructional flights) I had always enjoyed spins with my instructor and said sure. We climbed way up much higher than normal to see how many turns we could make. I don't recall how may turns it was, and can't find notation in my logbook

 

[MauleSkinner]

What is REQUIRED? To do at least one spin and the instructor sign it off as spin training for the CFI.

I believe two are required, one each direction.

As others have indicated, good spin training essentially means you’re comfortable with the theory, as well as with spin recoveries with entries from various configurations.

personally, as an instructor, I’ve had students enter more inadvertent snap rolls than I’ve had inadvertent spins. But the same reflexes stop them pretty quickly.

 

[RussR]

I believe two are required, one each direction.

61.183 is mute on that topic.

AC 61-67 says that spins "should" be performed in both directions by the applicant.

As different people have different opinions on what "advisory" circular and "should" mean, I'll leave it at that.

 

[MauleSkinner]

As different people have different opinions on what "advisory" circular and "should" mean, I'll leave it at that.

I will just mention, however, that it doesn’t matter what opinions “different people” have, only the FAA’s opinion matters.

of course, then we get into differing opinions on what “the FAA” means.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The reason they say "get some good" is that, while the FAA requires an endorsement "that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate," it's often pretty minimal since most DPEs will not ask for a demonstration.

What's "good?" That depends.

Do you feel prepared to demonstrate and teach spins? Do you want to? Do you feel prepared to recognize a potential inadvertent spin by a student and recover from one? Or do you just want to check the box?

 

[texasclouds]

Mine included several spins both ways in a Super D. I think one turn spins initially, then some 3 turns. Then I had to talk the CFI through a recovery. That was for my CFI initial. I don’t remember but we probably did 6-8 total.

 

[Jereme Carne]

Thanks for the replies guys. I feel very ready and comfortable in recognizing spins, teaching them and recovery.

If we start getting into advanced aerodynamics involving spins I’m betting it would be a different story for most of us, including myself. Don’t really know how deep to go with the knowledge sometimes. I highly doubt it necessary for the checkride and somewhat for application too since most airplanes behave different.

Basically, hearing of people going up for 4-5 flights to get their endorsement makes me wonder if I missed anything. I’m now starting to think that was a flight school or two just trying to squeeze more money out of people.

 

[Brad W]

I vaguely remember a video on youtube maybe a year or so ago by Spencer Suderman on spins. He was up in an Extra and demonstrated a few things about them. I remember thinking it was a pretty good lesson and much better than the spin training I did for my PPL...we did a whole bunch of spins on several occasions...probably more than the norm, but there was no real lesson other than practicing the recovery technique. There was nothing scenario based (such as base to final turn, etc...). Just a short video.... so yeah, only one flight or maybe two for practice I would think.....

I remember once I think after I had my PPL, not my usual instructor was bored one day when I showed up to rent for a flight...he asked if I wanted to do some spins. (it was one of those come along as a friend, no charge non-instructional flights) I had always enjoyed spins with my instructor and said sure. We climbed way up much higher than normal to see how many turns we could make. I don't recall how may turns it was, and can't find notation in my logbook

found it, guess I was wrong about it being in an Extra. That was some others he did I suppose....

 

[Jereme Carne]

found it, guess I was wrong about it being in an Extra. That was some others he did I suppose....

Great video! Love the Sporty’s stuff. Used them for my instrument and commercial.
Here is another awesome spins video.

 

[Clip4]

From what I have observed from some young CFIs, the spin training the received was in not adequate.

 

[brien23]

Spin training has not changed much in the past 50 years, back then people spun twins and probably not the smartest thing to do. Their was a time it was required for PPL not sure it did much for the real killer stall spin base turn to final 500' AGL not too many could survive that. As a CFI to get the spin training your aircraft to do a good spin in are somewhat limited some spin real good others not so good and some you don't want to spin at all. For those who got their spin training in a Piper PA-28 you might want to try it in a better spinning aircraft.

 

[Brad W]

Great video! Love the Sporty’s stuff. Used them for my instrument and commercial.
Here is another awesome spins video.

I agree, that was a good one. Seems to me that it's good to get high enough so you can let it fully develop like that....and then explore different things.... what happens when you do this control input? what happens when you do that control input?

I know it's been said before about training maneuvers... I think that, at least with most of the training I received (not just spins), that it's as much about wrote procedure for the exam....how to get into the maneuver then how to recover from it. It doesn't really help all that much in experiencing the practical applications of the maneuvers...or the intent of what it's supposed to be teaching.

so
I like how that instructor did it.....
for example.... let's see what happens if you pitch down before stopping the turn with the rudder.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Basically, hearing of people going up for 4-5 flights to get their endorsement makes me wonder if I missed anything. I’m now starting to think that was a flight school or two just trying to squeeze more money out of people.

Aerobatic pilots, especially those flying high performance aircraft, need more advanced spin training. They need to be prepared to deal with upright spins, inverted spins, accelerated spins, flat spins, and crossover spins. Aerobatic maneuvers present the risk of entering inadvertant spins from unusual attitudes, so that the direction of rotation is not obvious. Additional training is needed in determining the direction of rotation and whether the spin is upright or inverted, and determining correct recovery inputs.

When the Pitts became popular in the 70's and 80's, there was a spate of unexplained deaths of experienced pilots spinning in, some from a very high altitude. The community eventually realized that because of the very short fuselage and powerful flight controls, it was quite easy to cross over from an upright spin to an inverted spin during recovery. If you don't recognize that, you can hold pro-spin controls in all the way to the ground. A common Pitts transition POI might include 5 hours of advanced spin training and 5 hours of landings.

For a GA pilot, I think 30 minutes is sufficient. You just need to see what a developing spin looks like, so you can recognize it early in the process and take appropriate action to recover. That sight picture of yaw and roll in the same direction is the critical learning point. And of course getting comfortable with recovery inputs and confident that you can stop a spin.

I personally think spin training is more effective in an aerobatic trainer like a Citabria or Decathlon, rather than a GA trainer. Acro trainers have more control authority, so you can reliably enter a spin on command, rather than wrestling with the controls to try and force it to spin, like a 172. The higher G rating means you can get deeper into the spin without worrying about the dive afterwards. OTOH I also think spin training in an Extra is probably overkill.

 

[Notrub]

I did just that video in an extra 300 in February …wish I had seen that video first. Spun it both ways did some more did some g loads and puked. Maybe more like a spiddle but lost the man card for acro. Its amazing how counter intuitive it was to put myself and instructor into the spin and then we lost little over 3,000ft wow. Note to self never spin low

 

[Ed Haywood]

Here is a spin from one of my practice sequences. Note the alignment of my windshield brace with the road when rotation stops. IAC contests grade on accuracy of recovery, with points deducted for every 5 degrees off desired heading. Just an example of how much control you can have on recovery with practice.

 

[Jereme Carne]

Aerobatic pilots, especially those flying high performance aircraft, need more advanced spin training. They need to be prepared to deal with upright spins, inverted spins, accelerated spins, flat spins, and crossover spins. Aerobatic maneuvers present the risk of entering inadvertant spins from unusual attitudes, so that the direction of rotation is not obvious. Additional training is needed in determining the direction of rotation and whether the spin is upright or inverted, and determining correct recovery inputs.

When the Pitts became popular in the 70's and 80's, there was a spate of unexplained deaths of experienced pilots spinning in, some from a very high altitude. The community eventually realized that because of the very short fuselage and powerful flight controls, it was quite easy to cross over from an upright spin to an inverted spin during recovery. If you don't recognize that, you can hold pro-spin controls in all the way to the ground. A common Pitts transition POI might include 5 hours of advanced spin training and 5 hours of landings.

For a GA pilot, I think 30 minutes is sufficient. You just need to see what a developing spin looks like, so you can recognize it early in the process and take appropriate action to recover. That sight picture of yaw and roll in the same direction is the critical learning point. And of course getting comfortable with recovery inputs and confident that you can stop a spin.

I personally think spin training is more effective in an aerobatic trainer like a Citabria or Decathlon, rather than a GA trainer. Acro trainers have more control authority, so you can reliably enter a spin on command, rather than wrestling with the controls to try and force it to spin, like a 172. The higher G rating means you can get deeper into the spin without worrying about the dive afterwards. OTOH I also think spin training in an Extra is probably overkill.

Awesome explanation.

I do know that when I have tried to spin a "trainer" you pretty much have to force it. So flying my RV through many spins was cool because that baby behaves a bit different and will stay in it! It also has a spin quality where the elevators float up and force the stick back with a fair bit of force. You definitely can't just let go and recover.