What is a good handgun for self/home defense?

txflyer said:
The Mrs. or anyone with no training will have better results from a scattergun if they truly must point a weapon at someone and pull the trigger. :redface:
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At distances inside a home a shotgun is not a 'scattergun'. At those distances anything but a skeet load will go through a wall.
 
weilke said:
At distances inside a home a shotgun is not a 'scattergun'. At those distances anything but a skeet load will go through a wall.
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You are going to have to replace the walls anyway, to get all the blood out.
Any gun, other than a Nerf gun, is going to go through the walls. Make sure you know what's on the other side of the wall before you pull the trigger, as there is a high probability you are going to miss if you use anything other than a shotgun and bird shot.
Another piece of unsolicited advice: Shoot and run. Your uninvited guest may have a friend just around the nearest corner. He now knows where you are, and that you are willing to shoot. The price of Poker has risen exponentially. Bird shot, slug, bird shot, slug.
As one of my SEA instructors taught me all those years ago: "Slow 'em down, then mow 'em down. That's how you live long enough to die of old age."
 
weilke said:
At distances inside a home a shotgun is not a 'scattergun'. At those distances anything but a skeet load will go through a wall.
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I guess I get your angle, but ask yourself this if you could pick your poison.

If YOU were going to be fired upon only once in close quarters, would you pick a 9mm or a .12 guage for your opponent?

I think you'll figure it out. ;)
 
Shepherd said:
You are going to have to replace the walls anyway, to get all the blood out.
Any gun, other than a Nerf gun, is going to go through the walls. Make sure you know what's on the other side of the wall before you pull the trigger, as there is a high probability you are going to miss if you use anything other than a shotgun and bird shot.
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I dont worry about the walls, the carpet or anything else that can be replaced with a call to a contractor. Depending on jurisdiction, you are going to spend multiples of the cost of some carpet on legal defense anyway.

I just wanted to correct two misconceptions about shotguns:
#1 That they are somehow a 'scattergun' and that you 'dont really need to aim'.
#2 That they dont penetrate walls.

As to #1, on short range inside of a home, 2-10yrds the pattern of a shotgun is quite tight and for practical purposes the degree of precision you need is no different from a handgun or carbine.
As to #2, anything that will reliably penetrate a 200lb target will also penetrate through 2 sheets of drywall or the flimsy-a## cardboard doors used in contractor grade US construction*.

Another piece of unsolicited advice: Shoot and run. Your uninvited guest may have a friend just around the nearest corner. He now knows where you are, and that you are willing to shoot.
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I disagree with that. Coordinated attacks with multiple armed attackers are exceedingly rare if you are not in the retail recreational pharmaceutical business. In my home, I know every door, every cover and where the people I am trying to protect are. Why would I want to give up that advantage by running out the door ?

* the one exception are apparently low weight high velocity varmint loads in .233, they tumble and come apart after one sheet of drywall, but then again, not sure I want to rely on something designed to pulverize groundhogs to work on a 200lb target.


 
weilke said:
... Coordinated attacks with multiple armed attackers are exceedingly rare if you are not in the retail recreational pharmaceutical business. In my home, I know every door, every cover and where the people I am trying to protect are. Why would I want to give up that advantage by running out the door ?
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I would not see the necessity of running out the door, but would expect one should change their location after each shot (or group of shots, if one fires repeatedly).

One should not forget that all the comments here about the ability of handgun and shotgun ammunition to penetrate doors and sheetrock also applies to the bad guys' guns as well. Peeking and firing around a door jamb isn't much protection, once they know where you're at. They're probably going to have a wide CEP, but if they panic (likely), there's going to be a large number of shots heading your way. Since the walls won't stop the shot, there's a higher chance you'll get tagged.

SOME change of location is probably for the better, even if it's just switching to the other side of the door and crouching vs. standing.

You're right about deliberate coordination of attackers being vanishingly rare. But if you don't know the exact number of attackers (probable, unless you watch them arrive and assemble), the tactical effect *on you* is about the same.

Ron Wanttaja
 
weilke said:
I dont worry about the walls, the carpet or anything else that can be replaced with a call to a contractor. Depending on jurisdiction, you are going to spend multiples of the cost of some carpet on legal defense anyway.

I just wanted to correct two misconceptions about shotguns:
#1 That they are somehow a 'scattergun' and that you 'dont really need to aim'.
#2 That they dont penetrate walls.

As to #1, on short range inside of a home, 2-10yrds the pattern of a shotgun is quite tight and for practical purposes the degree of precision you need is no different from a handgun or carbine.
As to #2, anything that will reliably penetrate a 200lb target will also penetrate through 2 sheets of drywall or the flimsy-a## cardboard doors used in contractor grade US construction*.



I disagree with that. Coordinated attacks with multiple armed attackers are exceedingly rare if you are not in the retail recreational pharmaceutical business. In my home, I know every door, every cover and where the people I am trying to protect are. Why would I want to give up that advantage by running out the door ?

* the one exception are apparently low weight high velocity varmint loads in .233, they tumble and come apart after one sheet of drywall, but then again, not sure I want to rely on something designed to pulverize groundhogs to work on a 200lb target.
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#1 Depends on the gun and choke.

I didn't say anything about a coordinated attack. Most break-ins are thugs (and cowards). By taking that first shot you have elevated the "fight or flight" reflex in your opponents to radically new levels. They are either going to break for the nearest door or window or fight back. If they run, good for you. But if they don't run, they and you are now in a fight to the death. There is no reason NOT for them to shoot to kill, because you have already indicated your intentions. Shoot and move. Do not be standing where you fired your last shot. Combat 101.
 
wanttaja said:
You're right about deliberate coordination of attackers being vanishingly rare. But if you don't know the exact number of attackers (probable, unless you watch them arrive and assemble), the tactical effect *on you* is about the same.
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Very few defensive gun uses in the home include an exchange of fire. It is also very rare that more than 5 shots are fired. I know it is a lot of fun to get geared up for the North Hollywood shootout, but 99/100 times you are going to encounter a prescription drug addict who will turn and run after you shoot once and miss. I am not the police, I dont have to apprehend anyone.
 
weilke said:
Very few defensive gun uses in the home include an exchange of fire. It is also very rare that more than 5 shots are fired. I know it is a lot of fun to get geared up for the North Hollywood shootout, but 99/100 times you are going to encounter a prescription drug addict who will turn and run after you shoot once and miss. I am not the police, I dont have to apprehend anyone.
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I do agree. Just to summarize. There I was, 15 or so years ago & approached by a guy with ill intentions, middle America. As I saw things develop I put my 'shooting hand' in my jacket pocket & left it there. He started with a B.S. question. I looked him in the eye & didn't answer, sizing him up.

His next question was, "are you a cop"? I said, 'why would if matter if I was a cop'? He then said goodby & left. He didn't feel comfortable going to the next step.
 
Late to the thread but my 2 cents. I have several pistols in my bedroom, but I think I would reach for the glock 9mm if I had to make a choice. not a ton of recoil, and it is rock solid. I've put a lot of rounds in it without a jam. In other words, it's the one that I feel most comfortable shooting. you just have to find the one that works for you.
 
Shepherd said:
#1 Depends on the gun and choke.
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A shotgun is going to spread, on average 1 inch per yard. So, in your typical home defense engagement distances, you're going to have a group of probably 3-5 inches. Not huge, but not small either. That said, anyone in this thread that is advocating using non-lethal rounds (such as birdshot) in a shotgun for a home defense load, is doing a major disservice. If you shoot, you shoot to kill. Load up with 00 buck and use that.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
A shotgun is going to spread, on average 1 inch per yard. So, in your typical home defense engagement distances, you're going to have a group of probably 3-5 inches. Not huge, but not small either. That said, anyone in this thread that is advocating using non-lethal rounds (such as birdshot) in a shotgun for a home defense load, is doing a major disservice. If you shoot, you shoot to kill. Load up with 00 buck and use that.
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I agree. 12 ga. 00 buck is just fine. 12 ga. Remington is all I've ever owned or needed. Important to remember that in the old west, not the Hollywood version, guns were not allowed in towns. They had to be checked in on arrival. Hand guns, rifles, , all of them. You picked them up again as you left. John Wayne, while a real tough guy in the movies was 4f during WW 2.
 
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weilke said:
Very few defensive gun uses in the home include an exchange of fire. It is also very rare that more than 5 shots are fired.
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Actually, the stats say otherwise IIRC. Not about the running gunfight- those don't really happen. However, if you ever are in a shooting situation the most common reaction is to empty or nearly empty the mag- usually without realizing just how many shots you've fired.

For that reason, it's good to know what your backstop is before hand and choose a load carefully- ball ammo in a HD scenario is not good for anybody but the perp.
 
My choice is my Desert Eagle 44, my wife carries a Sig 9mm. My personal opinion is that I only use my pistol for cover as I try to get to my rifle, that would be my Weatherby 300 mag.
 
I support shoot and then take cover and concealment if possible, and definitely move to a new position. I do NOT support "run" or "flee" your house (YOUR domain which YOU know), that gives me images of the homeowner bailing into the backyard into two more thugs who may or may not be privy to what just went down.

Also, a "home break-in" and a "home invasion" are typically different things. A home break in typically involves less organized dudes, typically not rocket scientists, who may have seen your empty 100 inch plasma TV box for trash pickup and now decided you are not home, and want the TV (but you indeed are home). These types of guys typically met in jail and are out now, and have no loyalty to each other. If they break in and threaten you with a screwdriver or something, well they just met Smith and Wesson. However they are not going to "call in reinforcements" or "run to the car to get a weapon" and come back after you. They are gonna haul a** and never look back. A home break in is done via an unlocked window/door, or pulling a screen door off.

A home invasion is a dangerous event, involving organized, smarter, almost always heavily armed, criminals, almost always two or more, working as a coordinated team. They are looking for drugs and/or money, for some reason they believe your house contains the above. You stay at home wife and baby girl may be tied-up (until they find "the drugs"), killed, or kidnapped until you cough up the money or drugs. Again, a home invasion is a dangerous situation. A home invasion typically comes right thru the front door, even the crooks using a "ram" or entry device, or by coming in thru the garage. Locked or unlocked, they are not "picking locks" or stuff like that, they are coming thru the door, dynamically and swiftly !

Another poster put a link to the San Antonio news home invasion. Yes it is a dangerous world. However victims of home invasions are usually involved in less than Saintly activities themselves and may have "had it coming." Not every case, obviously.

I think a good program/system for home defense (versus just "get a shotgun") is well-lit exterior, alarms/door chimes, cameras, a dog that barks alot, and burglar bars/physical barriers, some folks have those "cages" or whatever you call them in front of the front door.

burglar_door_2.208145606_large1.jpg



I never liked my front door exposed with every Joe Tom and Harry could walk right up to my front door and knock on it. So the above might be something to think about.

Also, have an agreed upon security plan in the family ! If dad says "take cover" or whatever "Code Red" that means go to Room-X and do XXX. The all clear is code word "Amarillo" or similar. Someone is assigned to call 911 and STAY on 911 until police arrive. Give police dad's clothing description etc. Then dad takes care of business.

Also, if strangers knock on the door (common sense, but...) or call the house, the kids need to have an authentication password. "Hello Julie, your mom is in the hospital, you need to come with us". If Julie says ok, are you having a good day (security prompt question) and the answer is "sesame street" then boom, mom really IS in the hospital. If the answer is uh, what Julie, yes we are having a good day, uh what then Julie needs to call 911 or appropriate responsible adults depending on the situation.

Home defense needs to be shotgun or pistol but well trained and current on tactics.

Also YOU the homeowner has tactical advantage. attack from the DARK and maintain tactical advantage !!!!! Do not "shoot to wound" etc. Chest shots and head shots !!!! If he goes down and is still moving, continue shooting until YOUR PERCEPTION OF THE THREAT is no more threat. Todays criminal is drugged, crazy, motivated, and may still be alive to hurt you even after he "goes down"

Also remember that criminals may do surveillance/site surveys of your house. One example is the "lost dog guy" who is a claimed guy looking for a lost dog. He may have knocked on your door last week looking for a dog. He may even do this a few days in a row, testing your occupants and testing weaknesses in his "target" (you/your house). The overly nice guy may be targeted before the a-hole, aggresive, "no bro, no lost dogs here, whats your name, where you from, I see you again I am calling the cops" answer.

*** if you are pulling the gun out, prepare to take it all the way to the end and not "wave it around and warn them". Be ready to take care of business !

Just some thoughts.
 
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B350ATP said:
Shoot to kill also, if you are pulling the gun out, prepare to take it all the way to the end and not "wave it around and warn them". Be ready to take care of business !
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:rolleyes2:. "Shooting to kill" is a great way to end up in jail afterwards. You "shoot to stop"- Now, not 30 minutes or a day later. If you have a validated and verified intruder, they need to be on the ground and bleeding ASAP. Afterward, they can get all the medical attention that arrives in time:yes:. OTOH, if they bleed out 2 hours later- lot of good that does you.

If you have a gun, be prepared to use it or not use it as the situation requires. However, if that gun ever does get drawn for real understand rule #1: you and yours live to see another sunrise- everything else is optional.
 
warthog1984 said:
:rolleyes2:. "Shooting to kill" is a great way to end up in jail afterwards. You "shoot to stop"- Now, not 30 minutes or a day later. If you have a validated and verified intruder, they need to be on the ground and bleeding ASAP. Afterward, they can get all the medical attention that arrives in time:yes:. OTOH, if they bleed out 2 hours later- lot of good that does you.

If you have a gun, be prepared to use it or not use it as the situation requires. However, if that gun ever does get drawn for real understand rule #1: you and yours live to see another sunrise- everything else is optional.
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In my great State of Texas, anybody who breaks into my house while I am inside it, is ending up deader that dirt and no jail for me. In the unlikely event I get asked "why did you shoot him 8 times" my answer will be "because I ran out of ammo"

I will likely get a Chamber of Commerce luncheon with an "Making the Community Safer" award a week later.

Come on down to the Lone Star State. Enjoy California, looks like your Governor supports free education to illegals, wants to save sharks, and other important things. Enjoy.
 
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B350ATP said:
In my great State of Texas, anybody who breaks into my house while I am inside it, is ending up deader that dirt and no jail for me. In the unlikely event I get asked "why did you shoot him 8 times" my answer will be "because I ran out of ammo"

I will likely get a Chamber of Commerce luncheon with an "Making the Community Safer" award a week later.

Come on down to the Lone Star State. Enjoy California, looks like your Governor supports free education to illegals, wants to save sharks, and other important things. Enjoy.
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Agreed. This is one reason I liked Colorado's "Make My Day" law, because it also shields from civil liability if the scumbag's next of kin tries to sue for wrongful death, or some other such BS.

I'd never shoot to scare somebody, or just stop them. If you're ever in a situation where you have to pull a gun on another human being and pull the trigger, you shoot to kill them. Period.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
A shotgun is going to spread, on average 1 inch per yard. So, in your typical home defense engagement distances, you're going to have a group of probably 3-5 inches. Not huge, but not small either. That said, anyone in this thread that is advocating using non-lethal rounds (such as birdshot) in a shotgun for a home defense load, is doing a major disservice. If you shoot, you shoot to kill. Load up with 00 buck and use that.
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Except when that first shot hits your kid sneaking back into the house at 02:30, then it's a damned lucky thing the first load was light. It's not an infrequent occurrence.
 
Shepherd said:
A quick search turned up a number of gunfights with multiple shooters during home invasions, including this one http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...-invasion-leads-to-fatal-gunfight-2469880.php

It's a dangerous world out there.
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This case is a good illustration that the 12Ga shotty is not the 'instant death stick' that some here seem to believe it is. You still have to hit vitals, if you dont, your opponent may well drive himself to the hospital. I see plenty of x-rays from people with remote shotgun injuries, they all must have survived somehow.

And no, its not a dangerous world. I cant speak to your neighborhood, but where I live violent crime against innocent victims is pretty rare (if two gang bangers in SE DC off each other I dont consider it a crime).
 
LoneAspen said:
Agreed. This is one reason I liked Colorado's "Make My Day" law, because it also shields from civil liability if the scumbag's next of kin tries to sue for wrongful death, or some other such BS.

I'd never shoot to scare somebody, or just stop them. If you're ever in a situation where you have to pull a gun on another human being and pull the trigger, you shoot to kill them. Period.
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And you and the other poster will likely find yourself behind bars if that ever happens.

Even in the free states, there is a limit. Ersland's idiocy shows that.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/aaron-jossie/self-defense-tip-stfu-2/#more-45161

Validate and Shoot to Stop- Now. If it is a perp, and he dies- oh well. If he lives, he can get stitched up on the way to jail. BUT, if they are down and out, you cannot execute them and expect "Stand Your Ground" to justify it or protect you.

Not even in my native state of TX, where seeing somebody brandish a gun at a cop is justification for using a 30-06 on them.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/aaron-jossie/self-defense-tip-stfu-2/#more-45161
 
warthog1984 said:
And you and the other poster will likely find yourself behind bars if that ever happens.

Even in the free states, there is a limit. Ersland's idiocy shows that.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/aaron-jossie/self-defense-tip-stfu-2/#more-45161

Validate and Shoot to Stop- Now. If it is a perp, and he dies- oh well. If he lives, he can get stitched up on the way to jail. BUT, if they are down and out, you cannot execute them and expect "Stand Your Ground" to justify it or protect you.
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The law gives you a right to use 'force including deadly force' to stop someone from committing a limited list of felonies in your home. Once they are not in a position to comitt that felony (burglary of an occupied dwelling, robbery, aggravated assault, kidnapping), the justification ends. It does not give a right to kill someone just because they have entered your home. Even the TX law includes qualifiers like 'reasonably believes' and 'immediately necessary'. The provision that allows force to stop an unlawful entry into a home is a 'presumption of' which depending on the circumstances can be overcome.

It is remarkable how many people dont understand what rights those laws give you. Stupid monikers like 'make my day law', 'stand your ground' or 'warning shot law' just aggravate that problem.
 
warthog1984 said:
:rolleyes2:. "Shooting to kill" is a great way to end up in jail afterwards. You "shoot to stop"- Now, not 30 minutes or a day later. If you have a validated and verified intruder, they need to be on the ground and bleeding ASAP. Afterward, they can get all the medical attention that arrives in time:yes:. OTOH, if they bleed out 2 hours later- lot of good that does you.

If you have a gun, be prepared to use it or not use it as the situation requires. However, if that gun ever does get drawn for real understand rule #1: you and yours live to see another sunrise- everything else is optional.
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In NC, the house is free fire zone for intruders as in castle doctrine.:yes:
CA apparently like criminals better than the rest.
 
Morgan3820 said:
In NC, the house is free fire zone for intruders as in castle doctrine.:yes:
CA apparently like criminals better than the rest.
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Well, remember that since NC is a free fire zone, the opposition will take that into account in their deliberation on when and whether they pull their trigger as well. Nothing good comes of any of this until they start using human remains for pet food.
 
weilke said:
The law gives you a right to use 'force including deadly force' to stop someone from committing a limited list of felonies in your home. Once they are not in a position to comitt that felony (burglary of an occupied dwelling, robbery, aggravated assault, kidnapping), the justification ends. It does not give a right to kill someone just because they have entered your home. Even the TX law includes qualifiers like 'reasonably believes' and 'immediately necessary'. The provision that allows force to stop an unlawful entry into a home is a 'presumption of' which depending on the circumstances can be overcome.

It is remarkable how many people dont understand what rights those laws give you. Stupid monikers like 'make my day law', 'stand your ground' or 'warning shot law' just aggravate that problem.
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"Warning shot law?" There is such a thing? Or is that just in Joe Biden's little mind?
 
Henning said:
Except when that first shot hits your kid sneaking back into the house at 02:30, then it's a damned lucky thing the first load was light. It's not an infrequent occurrence.
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Which is why many of the home invasion defense courses train you to verbally and very loudly explain to the intruder that you are armed and you will fire. Yes it's a tactical disadvantage but you have home field advantage. The benefits of hopefully the person retreating which they likely will do since it's probably some stupid teenager anyhow are worth the trade off to me.
 
jesse said:
Which is why many of the home invasion defense courses train you to verbally and very loudly explain to the intruder that you are armed and you will fire. Yes it's a tactical disadvantage but you have home field advantage. The benefits of hopefully the person retreating which they likely will do since it's probably some stupid teenager anyhow are worth the trade off to me.
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Exactly. Anyone who loads anything intended to be "less than lethal" or shoot to not kill, might as well not even have a damn firearm. If you aren't willing to go all the way, don't waste your time.
 
Morgan3820 said:
In NC, the house is free fire zone for intruders as in castle doctrine.:yes:
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You need to read your state law. The citations are GS_14-51.2 and GS_14-51.3 .

If you dont understand what some of it means, pay for an hour of a criminal defense attorneys time to explain it to you.
 
nddons said:
"Warning shot law?" There is such a thing? Or is that just in Joe Biden's little mind?
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It is a new FL law that extends the same protections that you have if you USE deadly force for situations where you would be justified to use it but end up not doing so (draw a gun but stop short of firing, shoot and miss). Before this clarification of the law, you were better off killing someone than just pointing a gun at them.
 
FastEddieB said:
Bersa in an Argentinian manufacturer that seems to make quality firearms which are modestly priced.

In 9mm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersa_Thunder_9

411551116.jpg
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I have (as noted earlier) the Bersa Thunder 380 cc. A bit smaller, .380 ACP with most protrusions reduced to ease drawing. The sights are a joke, but for the intended purpose you won't likely be using them anyway. The lifetime warranty for the original purchaser is good, too.

Went to the range yesterday. Put 100 rounds through the Bersa, 18 rounds through the Kahr CW40 (that was enough, I've decided I don't like that pistol - the trigger pull is insanely heavy and when using two hands my wedding ring rips up a knuckle on the little finger of my right hand). Then put 80+ rounds through my 1911. I like that pistol, just not for concealed carry. A nice time punching holes in paper.
 
California Penal Code section 198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.
------------------
So, basically, California does have a castle law, and it's been in place for many years.
 
ateamer said:
So, basically, California does have a castle law, and it's been in place for many years.
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Correct, and the case I cited was from OK, where the shooter was sent away for life by a jury of his peers. It's great to know that legally you can engage, but at some point you have to know when you've disengaged and the normal rules apply again.

To keep it on topic:

OP, I have only really found 2 handguns that fit me well- a Beretta 92 and double-stack 1911 oddly enough- neither of which are good carry guns. Are you looking for a home carry piece, or an out-and-about concealed carry? You'll get different answers, depending. I know the S&W Shield has gotten good reviews as a carry gun, and others are partial to the baby Glocks (hate them, myself).

There are pros and cons for each gun, but whichever gun ergonomically fits you the best, with recoil you can handle comfortably, and can afford to shoot enough to stay proficient is the best gun for you. Maybe its a Glock, a 1911, or even a Buckmark or Hi-Point in .22lr; whichever it is, the gun you can handle comfortably and have with you >> the hand cannon in the safe.
 
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