What is a good handgun for self/home defense?

weilke said:
It could. In the great majority of cases, the alternative is the loss of a minor piece of property, a wallet, some tools from your garage etc.
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There is no reason to shoot someone for stealing personal possessions, in fact the law is very clear on this. You only can shoot to stop the threat of your life being taken, or from serious bodily harm. Possessions can be replaced, lives can not.
 
Anthony said:
There is no reason to shoot someone for stealing personal possessions, in fact the law is very clear on this. You only can shoot to stop the threat of your life being taken, or from serious bodily harm. Possessions can be replaced, lives can not.
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The difficulty, of course, is knowing which situation you are in at the time.

Somebody rummaging around in my garage while my family & I are in the house? Not gonna mess with them. I will call the cops. Somebody trying to come through the door between? Whole 'nother thing.

And I can't imagine having to deal with having killed somebody, but I believe I would do it given the threat. God willing, I'll never know.

John
 
weilke said:
It could. In the great majority of cases, the alternative is the loss of a minor piece of property, a wallet, some tools from your garage etc.
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The hope that a bad guy "only" wants your wallet or property is of no comfort to me, as bad guys aren't stupid and don't like witnesses. The criminal files are full of robberies gone wrong, with a good guy being killed. Google Milwaukee Miller Executive Killed.

Compliance and hopeful submission may get you killed, unless you have an armed alternative. I choose not to be a victim.
 
Anthony said:
There is no reason to shoot someone for stealing personal possessions, in fact the law is very clear on this. You only can shoot to stop the threat of your life being taken, or from serious bodily harm. Possessions can be replaced, lives can not.
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Correct. As this thread illustrates, many dont understand the different justifications for the use of force (defense of property, defense of habitation, self defense). The problem is that once you stand across from someone with a gun in your hand, all the fine gradations go out the window and for most fear takes over.
 
I am certain my emotional trauma after I kill someone who was threatening the life of my family (or my life), would be easier to deal with than me being killed by them or a family member being killed by them.

I like the "change your life forever" talk on here.

Getting yourself killed by a bad guy probably also falls into that category.

:rolleyes:
 
weilke said:
Correct. As this thread illustrates, many dont understand the different justifications for the use of force (defense of property, defense of habitation, self defense). The problem is that once you stand across from someone with a gun in your hand, all the fine gradations go out the window and for most fear takes over.
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As one who caught a bad guy in my home stealing my stuff, I was not scared but incensed. Got my 38 police special hit him on the back of the head and when he fell down jammed the revolver in his mouth. Told him if he moved I was going to blow the back of his head off. Remained in that position until the police came and they stood at the door and told me to put the gun down and come out. I explained I was the good guy, they cocked their hammers (pre glock) and put the flashlights in the middle of my chest and told me to put the gun down. Put the gun down and told the police the bad guy was coming out first, one flashlight and gun went away the other remained trained in the middle of my chest. Heard some scuffling and the bad guy ran. Note my Wife was on the phone with 911 during this time and relating the whole situation. The police couldn't keep up with the guy and I ran after him on a tangent tackling him for the police. I was so angry I didn't think to be scared which was probably an error on my part. My brother a police chief says the best gun for home protection is a shotgun with a blank up first so you don't shoot your daughter's boyfriend "breaking" in and buckshot from there on out.
 
weilke said:
It could. In the great majority of cases, the alternative is the loss of a minor piece of property, a wallet, some tools from your garage etc.
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These are not appropriate reasons to use deadly force, as anyone who pays any attention to the rules is well-aware.

The wallet maybe is questionable. If it was on you at the time and a mugger demands it, you've probably got a reasonable defense that you could experience significant bodily harm or even death. In most jurisdictions, that's usually the litmus test for charges to be filed and if charges are filed, you'll still have to let a jury decide. Both criminal and civil.

It'll be bankruptcy-inducing expensive to pay the lawyer. But at least they didn't find you stabbed and bled out next to a dumpster somewhere.

I don't know what a "minor piece of property" is, but if tools being stolen and you're not personally threatened in any way, killing the thief would trigger criminal charges by most District Attorneys, in most jurisdictions.

I say most, because there are some inconsistent laws out there which do allow defense of personal property alone, but that's not the typical legal norm in most jurisdictions.

However, throw another monkey-wrench in this detailed train of thought... Get the right jurors in a blue-collar town where someone's tools are their livelihood, and few can afford insurance, versus the suburbs where Bob has a full set of Snap-Ons for hanging picture frames...

Well, you get the idea. The jury of "peers" is also significantly involved.

"If that guy got away with my work trailer I would not be able to feed my family, so I ran out to confront him, knowing it was dangerous, and he charged me with a knife!"...

Totally different thing than, "I shot him in the back as he ran to his car and dropped my toolbox along the way."

The devil is always in the details.

A homeowner went to prison here for shooting someone who held him and his wife captive in their home, and when he somehow got free, got to his firearm, and shot the bad guy as he was running out the front door. The nail in his coffin was the ballistics and coroner agreeing the bad guy was shot from behind, and that the bad guy dropped on the lawn. The jury didn't buy that he was protecting himself and his wife when the bad guy was already running.

Which is why we have juries...
 
denverpilot said:
The devil is always in the details.

A homeowner went to prison here for shooting someone who held him and his wife captive in their home, and when he somehow got free, got to his firearm, and shot the bad guy as he was running out the front door. The nail in his coffin was the ballistics and coroner agreeing the bad guy was shot from behind, and that the bad guy dropped on the lawn. The jury didn't buy that he was protecting himself and his wife when the bad guy was already running.
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Guy in Wisconsin shot a burglar in the back and had no charges filed. Burglar was heading down a hallway towards sleeping family members. Attempts by the burglar to sue the homeowner were dismissed, including an appeal.
 
weilke said:
Guy in Wisconsin shot a burglar in the back and had no charges filed. Burglar was heading down a hallway towards sleeping family members. Attempts by the burglar to sue the homeowner were dismissed, including an appeal.
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The system generally works. It's hellaciously expensive but it does tend to work.

One local attorney jokes, "you'll be alive, completely broke, and still no guarantee the jury will go your way... but you'll be alive".
 
B350ATP said:
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/
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Unless something has changed since I last investigated it, ACN hasn't been involved in enough cases to have any track record of wins (or losses), really.

I think one would be much better off with an attorney with a known win/loss record on speed dial, that you've met in person.

Just my opinion.

There's about four of these pooled resource organizations nationwide now. I know of none with a legal track record large enough to hang a hat on.

As to why, I can't honestly say, but I suspect it's mostly an economics issue. Mainly only concealed carriers even consider such memberships worth the money, and concealed carriers commit so few violent crimes the statistics are off the scale on the low end.

Non-carrying firearms owners typically don't buy pooled legal insurance.

And firearms related crimes continue to fall, as they have since the 1990s.
 
My son says a Beretta 92FS....he wants to go to the range with me, and let me try his Beretta 92FS.
 
Anthony said:
There is no reason to shoot someone for stealing personal possessions, in fact the law is very clear on this. You only can shoot to stop the threat of your life being taken, or from serious bodily harm. Possessions can be replaced, lives can not.
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That depends on where you live. There are certainly jurisdictions that allow you to shoot someone to protect your property.
 
Am I remembering a recent case is Texas, where state law allowed deadly force in defense of property?

edited to add:


§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


I am NOT saying I agree with the above. In fact, I was surprised by the fact that Texas law permits it.
 
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denverpilot said:
The system generally works. It's hellaciously expensive but it does tend to work.

One local attorney jokes, "you'll be alive, completely broke, and still no guarantee the jury will go your way... but you'll be alive".
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Our system doesn't work, our society generally does. The violent crime rates are low because in general people don't want to commit violent crimes. We could have anarchy and I doubt the rates change much at all. Except that we would no longer have drug crime, so right there for much of the Western Hemisphere, you have a large opening for a drastic reduction in violence.
 
FastEddieB said:
Am I remembering a recent case is Texas, where state law allowed deadly force in defense of property?

edited to add:


§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


I am NOT saying I agree with the above. In fact, I was surprised by the fact that Texas law permits it.
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Yep, dude in TX got off killing the repo man.
 
If I was a burglar/home invader, and especially at night, I would pick one of the 49 other states to break into a home in, versus Texas.

The law itself, the juries, law enforcement's mind-set (the investigation, attitude towards bad-guy, etc), just is not in the bad-guy's favor.

In Texas, a hunter in a deer stand (30 years ago), observed via his scope, a traffic stop by I believe DPS (state police) or maybe local Sheriff, the occupants of the car killed the officer and attempted to flee. Deer hunter shoots them and kills them. 500-1000 (don't know) yards away.

No conviction and deer hunter won all sorts of community praise.

Burglar/Home Invader or general purpose criminal? Not welcome in Texas
 
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DavidWhite said:
You can try the Aunt Peggy approach and jingle your keys at them. So skeeeery
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David, can you / do you carry up in AK when flying, in the event you have to put down and encounter some nasty four-legged (or two-legged) critters?
 
nddons said:
David, can you / do you carry up in AK when flying, in the event you have to put down and encounter some nasty four-legged (or two-legged) critters?
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He might not want to answer that question :)
 
B350ATP said:
Burglar/Home Invader or general purpose criminal? Not welcome in Texas
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You should really tell them, as they dont seem to know.

The rate of burglary in for the US is 732/100k, TX is more in the 950/100k bracket. The sissified liberal northeast has a rate 1/2 of that, NYS about 1/3.

You have the laws you have because you need them.
 
weilke said:
You should really tell them, as they dont seem to know.

The rate of burglary in for the US is 732/100k, TX is more in the 950/100k bracket. The sissified liberal northeast has a rate 1/2 of that, NYS about 1/3.

You have the laws you have because you need them.
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Some laws, sure. But many many many laws have no value.
 
B350ATP said:
If I was a burglar/home invader, and especially at night, I would pick one of the 49 other states to break into a home in, versus Texas.

The law itself, the juries, law enforcement's mind-set (the investigation, attitude towards bad-guy, etc), just is not in the bad-guy's favor.

In Texas, a hunter in a deer stand (30 years ago), observed via his scope, a traffic stop by I believe DPS (state police) or maybe local Sheriff, the occupants of the car killed the officer and attempted to flee. Deer hunter shoots them and kills them. 500-1000 (don't know) yards away.

No conviction and deer hunter won all sorts of community praise.

Burglar/Home Invader or general purpose criminal? Not welcome in Texas
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That's why a burglar may as well kill you first on the way in rather than risk you waking up in Texas.
 
.460, 44mag or .454 would do it...
 
Henning said:
That's why a burglar may as well kill you first on the way in rather than risk you waking up in Texas.
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They balance that with the death penalty there. Most petty thieves don't want to face the music on that one.
 
denverpilot said:
They balance that with the death penalty there. Most petty thieves don't want to face the music on that one.
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Well, as was pointed out, considering the comparative rates on burglaries, the TX method of control isn't doing so hot.
 
Henning said:
Well, as was pointed out, considering the comparative rates on burglaries, the TX method of control isn't doing so hot.
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I believe the quoted statistic was burglary rate only, unadjusted for number of dwellings or per capita, wasn't it? Heck, one could just as easily blame it on the weather there.

Doesn't really matter. No way to link causation when even the correlation needs a huge number of variables that are assumed.

Maybe Texans just naturally have lower levels of impulse control because they're taught to by Hollywood. Heh. That's as scientifically accurate as anything presented so far.

Comparing Amarillo, TX to Pocatello, ID and pretending they're supposed to be the same is a weird type of collectivism.
 
denverpilot said:
I believe the quoted statistic was burglary rate only, unadjusted for number of dwellings or per capita, wasn't it? Heck, one could just as easily blame it on the weather there.

Doesn't really matter. No way to link causation when even the correlation needs a huge number of variables that are assumed.

Maybe Texans just naturally have lower levels of impulse control because they're taught to by Hollywood. Heh. That's as scientifically accurate as anything presented so far.

Comparing Amarillo, TX to Pocatello, ID and pretending they're supposed to be the same is a weird type of collectivism.
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Correct. Statistics can be interpreted however you want to.

Yes, Texas has double the murders, burglaries, and DUI's as Rhode Island. What a "horrible" state Texas is...

:rolleyes:
 
Personally I have a Tarus Judge for home defense. It gives me all of the power I need without too much fear of a stray bullet penetrating the walls and ending up in a neighbor's bedroom. If I only had one gun around the house I'd probably opt for some frangible ammunition for the above mentioned reason.
 
denverpilot said:
I believe the quoted statistic was burglary rate only, unadjusted for number of dwellings or per capita, wasn't it? Heck, one could just as easily blame it on the weather there.
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Those numbers are per 100k population. Pretty much any of the numbers you look at, Texas as a whole does poorly. Lots of very safe communities with a couple of extremely dangerous ones in between that drive the data.
 
weilke said:
Those numbers are per 100k population. Pretty much any of the numbers you look at, Texas as a whole does poorly. Lots of very safe communities with a couple of extremely dangerous ones in between that drive the data.
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link to that study so we can all benefit from reading it ?
 
B350ATP said:
link to that study so we can all benefit from reading it ?
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Do your own homework. Just look at the aggregated UCR data. TX and the southeast are a dangerous place.
 
weilke said:
Do your own homework. Just look at the aggregated UCR data. TX and the southeast are a dangerous place.
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Yes, hence my solicitation for the data you mentioned here

weilke said:
You should really tell them, as they dont seem to know.

The rate of burglary in for the US is 732/100k, TX is more in the 950/100k bracket. The sissified liberal northeast has a rate 1/2 of that, NYS about 1/3.

You have the laws you have because you need them.
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In my "do my homework research", I have located the FBI Property Crime Statistics for 2012 (they have not finished the 2013 study). Burglary is part of property crime.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc..._crime_in_the_united_states_by_state_2012.xls

Using the data in this link, the National burglary rate is 670 per 100K, and Texas is 786 per 100K. This differs from your rates above.

Other states (but not all), similar rates of Texas, or higher (based on the 2012 study) are.

Washington: 800 per 100K
Alabama: 984 per 100K
Arizona: 807 per 100K
Ark: 1081 per 100K
Delaware: 803 per 100K
Louisiana: 915 per 100K
NM: 1025 per 100K

Observe that many of these states do not have the population nor physical size of Texas, but do have burglary rates which exceed Texas rate. Many of US largest cities, by population, are in Texas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

Now, Texas does have elevated violent crime rates (in a state with some of USA's biggest cities, you are bound to get some folks who don't see eye to eye on something....) but you quoted burglary statistics and I "did my homework" as you stated. Many states, with lesser population, are much worse than Texas.

Have a wonderful day
 
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nddons said:
It doesn't hurt to ask. :). I'm envisioning a Colt Anaconda in .44 magnum, but that gun might affect the weight and balance of both the 172 and of young David. ;)
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I own one of those, with an 8" barrel!

In fact, my Anaconda got stolen during a home burglary years ago, but it was recently recovered and returned to me. Some guy had bought it from somebody off a Craigslist ad, then subsequently tried to consign it for sale at a pawn shop, they checked the NCIC database, found it had been stolen, and the cops confiscated it and returned it to me. Sucks to be him.

Had to pay about $300 to get my own gun back here in the great state of California, jumping through the paperwork. But to be fair, the FFL I used did a great job navigating the mess for me, so they deserved their fee, which was the bulk of the money.

It was in the same shape it was when it was stolen from me - pristine. I don't think it had even been fired in the 8 years it was out of my possession.

Getting it back was like Christmas coming early :)
 
B350ATP said:
In my "do my homework research", I have located the FBI Property Crime Statistics for 2012 (they have not finished the 2013 study). Burglary is part of property crime.
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Good, if you go back a couple of years ('08-'09), you get to the numbers I quoted. Funny, your numbers further my point that burglary rates in TX are above average. All the texas manly-men shooting burglars doesn't seem to deter burglars from committing burglaries (NYS with very few guns in homes in its largest city is at 329/100k, its all a great mystery).
 
LoneAspen said:
I own one of those, with an 8" barrel!

In fact, my Anaconda got stolen during a home burglary years ago, but it was recently recovered and returned to me. Some guy had bought it from somebody off a Craigslist ad, then subsequently tried to consign it for sale at a pawn shop, they checked the NCIC database, found it had been stolen, and the cops confiscated it and returned it to me. Sucks to be him.

Had to pay about $300 to get my own gun back here in the great state of California, jumping through the paperwork. But to be fair, the FFL I used did a great job navigating the mess for me, so they deserved their fee, which was the bulk of the money.

It was in the same shape it was when it was stolen from me - pristine. I don't think it had even been fired in the 8 years it was out of my possession.

Getting it back was like Christmas coming early :)
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I've only shot a 6" Colt King Cobra in .357. Sweet revolver, with great grips. SO much better than my 2" Ruger SP 101. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it.
 
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