What can i do to help you?

avgeek11

avgeek11

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avgeek11
As a controller, I have one question which I hope many of you chime in with answers to. In the event of an emergency, what can I do to best help you? Provide me with some of your possible or actual in flight emergencies.

I bring this up because I have to say this...a lot of controllers are not pilots. I've put some hours toward my PPL and come from an aviation background so for the most part, I know what goes on in the cockpit, whether it be in a Cherokee or B737. I know this will come up so I'll just beat you to it, but yes controllers can "fam flight" with an airline or GA company but it's not a requirement. I'd like to create some good discussion at the facility and hopefully have a monthly training meeting, reviewing emergencies and how we can best serve our flying public.
 
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Don't distract me from the emergency with talk. I will tell you what I need. Just clear airspace/runways for me please.
 
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I'm only going based on audio I've heard from other people's emergencies (thankfully I don't have experience here) but sometimes I hear too much distracting 'babble'. I know you need souls on board and fuel, but it's more important for the pilot to focus and sort things out than to divert attention to questions that aren't helping resolve the matter. I know it's not difficult to count the amount of people on board, but every second counts in an emergency. y'all should have a pretty good idea of seat counts in your typical GA plane, so I'm not sure how 'no pax on board' is much different than 1 or 2. let that discussion happen when it's time for it to happen, not at a critical time right after the pilot declares an emergency.

my guess is you guys are trained to have calm conversation with the pilot so as not to stir up more stress for everyone involved, but I think emergency time is the best time for 'short and sweet'. like I heard one emergency where the controller was describing every detail about weather that was ahead of the pilot...."looks like the cell is 12 miles wide and 3 miles deep with some light precip reported and also there's another cell at your 2 o'clock and that one is blah blah blah..." how about just "weather at your 12 and 2". boom.
 
Distance/bearing to nearest SUITABLE field, then be quiet. It's distracting to have questions asked during an emergency. The pilots will talk to you when they need something. Military controllers seem to be worse about that than on the civilian side.

On the topic of suitable, I had an emergency once and wanted to put it down fairly quickly but had a little time. I opened up the chart and saw that I was right over a 12,000 ft runway and assumed it had to be a big airport. So notified ATC, dropped down and on final I was looking around and noticed there wasn't much around. I went ahead and put it down and as I taxied around, couldn't find anything. The ramp had knee high grass in places, it reminded me of a twilight zone episode.

After shutting down wondering where in the world I was, and old man came walking out of a hangar to meet me. I found out no cell service, no hotels, no rental car, pretty much nothing was available. Some nice lady from the nearby town gave me a ride to OKC to start working the maintenance. The plane ended up needing an engine swap, but it would have been a lot easier from OKC or Tinker. Clinton Sherman is where I had landed by the way. In that case a quick word from ATC could have helped me recognize I was diverting into essentially a wasteland. Not their responsibility, but a quick word could have helped.
 
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eman1200 said:
I'm only going based on audio I've heard from other people's emergencies (thankfully I don't have experience here) but sometimes I hear too much distracting 'babble'. I know you need souls on board and fuel, but it's more important for the pilot to focus and sort things out than to divert attention to questions that aren't helping resolve the matter. I know it's not difficult to count the amount of people on board, but every second counts in an emergency. y'all should have a pretty good idea of seat counts in your typical GA plane, so I'm not sure how 'no pax on board' is much different than 1 or 2. let that discussion happen when it's time for it to happen, not at a critical time right after the pilot declares an emergency.

my guess is you guys are trained to have calm conversation with the pilot so as not to stir up more stress for everyone involved, but I think emergency time is the best time for 'short and sweet'. like I heard one emergency where the controller was describing every detail about weather that was ahead of the pilot...."looks like the cell is 12 miles wide and 3 miles deep with some light precip reported and also there's another cell at your 2 o'clock and that one is blah blah blah..." how about just "weather at your 12 and 2". boom.
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I can understand what you're saying but in reference to the end of your post, the tough part is knowing in the back of our minds, it all comes down to liability. I have worked emergency aircraft but I have not worked one that has resulted in a crash or fatality. the problem comes when the investigators grill you and ask you why you didn't do this or why didn't you tell him about that precip. we want to keep the info short and sweet to the pilot but not giving it the correct way doesn't help when it's time to CYA.
 
I appreciate the question.

A few years ago I had an emergency - flying IFR, I had a loss of power in the clouds over the Rockies. I declared an emergency and ATC did its best to help out without being (too) distracting. Helped me select diversion destination, when I fell below communications contact, asked another aircraft flying by to relay for us. Even grabbed one of the controllers who knew something about airplanes and relayed a troubleshooting suggestion (which turned out to be the right one, although I had already taken care of it).

The only real distraction was a bit ironic. At some point, they gave me a number to call. I had my wife take it down, which gave her something to do (a good thing), but would not be something I would want to deal with during the emergency. The irony? When I ultimately spoke with them (they called the FBO where we landed), in addition to making sure we were OK, the call was primarily to ask about whether they were helpful or distracting :D
 
Listen to the first report from the pilot,see what is needed ,and then give assistance,atc is doing a fine job?
 
Only ever had one emergency, total electrical failure on a VOR-A approach just below the clouds. While following the river home, slow with (electric) gear and flaps down the radios eventually came back on. I told ATC what had happened and that I was following the river back. He helpfully gave me a vector for Direct, but I wasn't confident going over the mountains for a half hour, there was ZERO flat land that way, and I didn't know if something else might give out, too. So I stayed along the river, where there were some flat spots on the banks.
 
I look at assistance based on essentially two types of emergencies; land as soon as possible and land as soon as practical.

If I'm in a situation of land as soon as possible, I'm coming down. All I care about is where is the nearest airport and if I'm IMC, weather and MIA below me. While I'd say most of us have "nearest" function on the GPS, probably know our MIA, and may know the weather below, we might be tied up with the emergency to get that stuff. Obviously you're going to clear the way with other aircraft, so that's a given.

If I'm a land as soon as practical, I may go to my destination or may chose the closest USABLE airport. FAA wants us to no pass up airports along the way. In that case, I have time to trouble shoot, don't really care about moving aircraft out of my way and crash crew usually not required. Really minimal assistance needed. This is the only type I've declared with ATC. Had a gear leg failure to extend. Finally came down but with no cockpit indication. Declared, had crash crew standing by and landed without incident.

How to tell the difference between the two? Most likely the pilot on land as soon possible will be "mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" and as soon as practical will be a calm "N12345 declaring an emergency at this time."
 
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I was thinking about this actually on a XC this week. For me, if I declare immediately getting distance and a heading to to the closest field would be the most beneficial to me. I have foreflight with moving map and a 430 with "nearest" function, but in an early stage of an emergency getting fed that information would be most helpful in executing "aviate, navigate, communicate" while I am processing the situation in the plane.
 
One of the first thing one learns in firefighter (and I would hope in controller) training is don't get rattled. It is not your emergency, and if you get rattled you will be of no help whatever. Listen closely and offer all the help you can in a calm and cool voice. That helps the pilot keep his cool too. Speed talking should be reserved for tracon or tower at a busy Bravo, not in an emergency.
 
Cooter143 said:
Distance/bearing to nearest SUITABLE field, then be quiet. It's distracting to have questions asked during an emergency. The pilots will talk to you when they need something. Military controllers seem to be worse about that than on the civilian side.

On the topic of suitable, I had an emergency once and wanted to put it down fairly quickly but had a little time. I opened up the chart and saw that I was right over a 12,000 ft runway and assumed it had to be a big airport. So notified ATC, dropped down and on final I was looking around and noticed there wasn't much around. I went ahead and put it down and as I taxied around, couldn't find anything. The ramp had knee high grass in places, it reminded me of a twilight zone episode.

After shutting down wondering where in the world I was, and old man came walking out of a hangar to meet me. I found out no cell service, no hotels, no rental car, pretty much nothing was available. Some nice lady from the nearby town gave me a ride to OKC to start working the maintenance. The plane ended up needing an engine swap, but it would have been a lot easier from OKC or Tinker. Clinton Sherman is where I had landed by the way. In that case a quick word from ATC could have helped me recognize I was diverting into essentially a wasteland. Not their responsibility, but a quick word could have helped.
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This parallels an experience I had. I lost a mag. It started off as a slight miss so I told ATC Inwas diverting to a class D where I figured maintenance would be available. Enroute the mag failed completely and the engine was not happy so I figured land now. Looking out the window there is an airfield under me so down I went. About 5,000 AGL I figure out it is abandoned. Shipping containers on one of the runways is a good clue. I talk to ATC again and go to an airfield 8 miles away...

Anyway as far as what controllers should do? Don't declare for me unless you need to do so to move traffic. Bothering me with questions while I'm trying to figure out what to do is pure distraction. In the future I'll just tell you to stand by. If you are concerned ask the pilot if they need priority then be quiet.
 
When I tell you I've lost my HSI in the clouds and the mag compass won't hold still due to turbulence, and ask for a fix rather than a vector, give me the damn fix. NorCal left me fighting the mag compass for 15+ minutes over SFO. That's exhausting.
 
MAKG1 said:
When I tell you I've lost my HSI in the clouds and the mag compass won't hold still due to turbulence, and ask for a fix rather than a vector, give me the damn fix. NorCal left me fighting the mag compass for 15+ minutes over SFO. That's exhausting.
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I can understand your frustration there when you're working with a busy approach control. I wish I knew the circumstances behind that. it's tough to move a heavy volume of airplanes around when you're near SFO & OAK. you come down to a Class Charlie (not saying it's a definite) and you may get direct to XXXXX when you ask for it. glad all is well
 
avgeek11 said:
I can understand your frustration there when you're working with a busy approach control. I wish I knew the circumstances behind that. it's tough to move a heavy volume of airplanes around when you're near SFO & OAK. you come down to a Class Charlie (not saying it's a definite) and you may get direct to XXXXX when you ask for it. glad all is well
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I didn't care what fix it was. Eventually they gave me direct OSI, and I think they waited for a hole in traffic to get to THAT fix. I'd have been happy with "fly course XXX" as I could read that off the GPS. But a heading was tough under the circumstances.

Flying partial panel in the clouds is a lot more difficult than full panel, and real failures aren't like training.

The frequencies I was on weren't that busy, though of course I didn't hear all the traffic in the B.
 
Shawn said:
I was thinking about this actually on a XC this week. For me, if I declare immediately getting distance and a heading to to the closest field would be the most beneficial to me. I have foreflight with moving map and a 430 with "nearest" function, but in an early stage of an emergency getting fed that information would be most helpful in executing "aviate, navigate, communicate" while I am processing the situation in the plane.
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I guess my question here would be is..depending on the nature of the emergency (as in what is going to require nearly all of your attention on flying the aircraft), how much time when you're flying solo are you going to have to look at your foreflight app? For those that are not receiving flight following how many pilots monitor/tune into the appropriate approach frequency when flying through the airspace?
 
avgeek11 said:
I guess my question here would be is..depending on the nature of the emergency (as in what is going to require nearly all of your attention on flying the aircraft), how much time when you're flying solo are you going to have to look at your foreflight app?
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Not much time at all in a true emergency. If I had an engine failure mid flight there is a lot that needs to happen all at once. First is fly the airplane, get to best glide and start looking for suitable landing, then start emergency checklists to see if the dang thing will fire back up....THEN I may be able to look at foreflight or "nearest" and process that information...having that information right off the back ATC could get me turning that direction immediately while focusing on the issues in the cockpit. Depending on altitude, those can be valuable seconds when it comes to glide distance and making it to a field or not.
 
This isn't emergency related but for you tower controllers, don't talk to me when I am still on the runway after landing. My focus is supposed to be on controlling the aircraft until clear of the runway. NOT answering questions.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
This isn't emergency related but for you tower controllers, don't talk to me when I am still on the runway after landing. My focus is supposed to be on controlling the aircraft until clear of the runway. NOT answering questions.
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I'll be quite honest with you, if you can't "control" your aircraft while I say N12345 turn right at Foxtrot, contact ground 121.9 i don't know what to tell you..multi tasking is what most of us in aviation do. surely I'm not going to ask you what your first and last name is and what your favorite hobby is, but if it's reference to traffic on a short final behind you and I need you to keep your speed up, then you can bet us "Tower" controllers are going to be on top of you. simple as that.
 
avgeek11 said:
I'll be quite honest with you, if you can't "control" your aircraft while I say N12345 turn right at Foxtrot, contact ground 121.9 i don't know what to tell you..multi tasking is what most of us in aviation do. surely I'm not going to ask you what your first and last name is and what your favorite hobby is, but if it's reference to traffic on a short final behind you and I need you to keep your speed up, then you can bet us "Tower" controllers are going to be on top of you. simple as that.
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I'm frequently asked to "say parking" while still on the runway. I've come to expect it so it's normally no longer a big deal, but I agree with Greg that I'd rather not have to answer questions until clear, especially if conditions are gusty and controlling the plane takes some concentration. For that matter, if it's seriously gusty I may wait until clear and stopped to hit the PTT at all. Aviate, navigate, communicate.
 
azure said:
I'm frequently asked to "say parking" while still on the runway. I've come to expect it so it's normally no longer a big deal, but I agree with Greg that I'd rather not have to answer questions until clear, especially if conditions are gusty and controlling the plane takes some concentration. For that matter, if it's seriously gusty I may wait until clear and stopped to hit the PTT at all. Aviate, navigate, communicate.
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And that's what it comes down to. If you don't want to press that transmit button until you're ready, that's perfectly fine. we understand that sometimes there's only one of you in the cockpit. I believe a lot of times we get a vision that there are two crew members up front. most of the time we speak with the airliners and corporate aircraft that have the so called flying pilot while the other works the comms. I believe the main thing this could come down to which the FAA has put an ATSAP briefing out on is when should controllers speak to aircraft during the "roll out phase"
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Be ready to give me the relevant local frequencies when I am diverting to an airport. Tower or CTAF. And let me know if the tower is closed at a towered airport. And the wind direction at the surface there.

I'm torn between recommending that you give this information automatically, or wait until asked. I think you should tell me if the tower is closed, and maybe just ask if I want the airport's frequency and winds.
 
Nothing to add as I've done both jobs (ATC & pilot) and had emergencies as a GA and airline pilot. Pretty much covered by everyone above. Great to see a controller asking for feedback and suggestions though.
 
avgeek11 said:
I'll be quite honest with you, if you can't "control" your aircraft while I say N12345 turn right at Foxtrot, contact ground 121.9 i don't know what to tell you..multi tasking is what most of us in aviation do. surely I'm not going to ask you what your first and last name is and what your favorite hobby is, but if it's reference to traffic on a short final behind you and I need you to keep your speed up, then you can bet us "Tower" controllers are going to be on top of you. simple as that.
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I don't have a problem with operationally necessary communications. But I reserve the right to not respond until I am good and ready to do so. Problem is, a lot of controllers are asking questions of me on roll out and that is an inappropriate time to do so. Operationally necessary, go ahead and let me know, otherwise STFU and let me get off the runway.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I don't have a problem with operationally necessary communications. But I reserve the right to not respond until I am good and ready to do so. Problem is, a lot of controllers are asking questions of me on roll out and that is an inappropriate time to do so. Operationally necessary, go ahead and let me know, otherwise STFU and let me get off the runway.
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that's the whole point of speaking with you..for "operational" purposes..safe flying bro
 
MAKG1 said:
When I tell you I've lost my HSI in the clouds and the mag compass won't hold still due to turbulence, and ask for a fix rather than a vector, give me the damn fix. NorCal left me fighting the mag compass for 15+ minutes over SFO. That's exhausting.
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Just curious, I am not sure what you mean by "give you a fix"? Maybe the controller didn't either?
Why not just ask for "No Gyro vectors"?

Brian
 
brcase said:
Just curious, I am not sure what you mean by "give you a fix"? Maybe the controller didn't either?
Why not just ask for "No Gyro vectors"?

Brian
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He was asking to be instructed to fly direct to a fix instead of flying a heading.
 
brcase said:
Just curious, I am not sure what you mean by "give you a fix"? Maybe the controller didn't either?
Why not just ask for "No Gyro vectors"?

Brian
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A fix is a navaid or intersection. It's in the PC/G, so a controller should be expected to know it.

FIX− A geographical position determined by visual reference to the surface, by reference to one or more radio NAVAIDs, by celestial plotting, or by another navigational device.

Basically, I wanted something I could put in the GPS. Anything.

They were not happy with flying course instead of heading, as there was a lot of wind.

I suppose no gyro vectors were an option, though I had all my gyros. The problem was an incorrect heading input to the HSI, probably the magnetometer, as it screwed up some of the GPS pages as well.
 
Good answers all.

I like the airport distance and heading.

I also like what some of the controllers have done in the annual NATCA awards over the years. They used to publish all of the recordings on their website but they seem to have removed them, which I think is a mistake.

Some examples include:

Moving a crapton of bigger iron out of the way to climb a Cirrus up to be on top, that had a flight control problem, probably caused by ice, that freaked out an autopilot, in IMC... As one great example.

Another was simply asking the pilot who was obviously panicking, in a very friendly and calm voice, "NXXXXX, so, uh, how you doing?" after a long transmission from the pilot about someone else who'd become incapacitated in the cockpit, like it was just any other day... And to focus the pilot on themselves not the medical victim. On the very next transmission you could hear at least half of the pilot's panic level was gone, just like that. Pilot knew they had to fly and land the plane now, freak out about the family member later, once they're safely on the ground.

Other examples have been controllers helping medevac aircraft or others communicate with someone on the far end, when their comms busted for that stuff.

All sorts of ways controllers can be helpful. Best way to find out how is to go flying with some pilots and toss a hypothetical emergency at them and ask them to show everything they have to do if that occurs... You'd see how busy it gets.

I'll also agree with the whole, "Quit asking me where I park while I'm still rolling out" sentiment, it's supposed to be something Ground asks after you're off the runway, and you've called THEM, not before. It's a side effect of combining the positions during quiet times, more than anything, I feel. Because usually the next thing said is, "Taxi to parking via Alpha, monitor Ground".

It's one of those things where folks on both sides of the mic are speeding up the process and removing a bit of safety, and it's dumb. Finish landing. Exit the runway. Do final cleanup checklist, flaps up, pumps off, lights off, blah blah... There's stuff to do at the runway exit, that shouldn't be done before then. THEN call Ground and request to taxi. "Say parking" while still rolling fast on the runway is starting to get on my nerves enough to make me think I'm soon going to start answering that with "stand by" or just ignore it. In a gusty crosswind landing it is annoying as hell.
 
avgeek11 said:
I'll be quite honest with you, if you can't "control" your aircraft while I say N12345 turn right at Foxtrot, contact ground 121.9 i don't know what to tell you..multi tasking is what most of us in aviation do. surely I'm not going to ask you what your first and last name is and what your favorite hobby is, but if it's reference to traffic on a short final behind you and I need you to keep your speed up, then you can bet us "Tower" controllers are going to be on top of you. simple as that.
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Nah... Often the crew (if the FO's leg) is right in the middle of transferring control, and that also involves communication. The controller issuing instructions at that point is EXTREMELY distracting, especially since I prefer to write down taxi instructions.

Greg is right. Always been my pet peeve.
 
Instructions during roll out are in the .65 so that isn't going to change anytime soon. If you don't want to be asked where you are parked on roll out, then tell tower while you're airborne. Local is trying to coordinate with ground so they can work their ground movements around your exit taxiway. Knowing where your exiting is kinda important for that.
 
(When I remember) I try to tell local where I'm parking on first check-in; 'Morning tower, N123 ils 17L, we're going to signature today' to avoid the distraction we've often gotten in the past which Greg notes.
In fact, sometimes it is a discussion with approach, in order to get a more appropriate runway.
 
avgeek11 said:
As a controller, I have one question which I hope many of you chime in with answers to. In the event of an emergency, what can I do to best help you? Provide me with some of your possible or actual in flight emergencies.

I bring this up because I have to say this...a lot of controllers are not pilots. I've put some hours toward my PPL and come from an aviation background so for the most part, I know what goes on in the cockpit, whether it be in a Cherokee or B737. I know this will come up so I'll just beat you to it, but yes controllers can "fam flight" with an airline or GA company but it's not a requirement. I'd like to create some good discussion at the facility and hopefully have a monthly training meeting, reviewing emergencies and how we can best serve our flying public.
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I concur with pretty much just about all that's been said. I was a controller for 30 years, a pilot for about 24 of those and still am. There are different kinds of emergencies. Different levels of experience of both pilots and controllers. There are no "pat answers" on just exactly what a controller should do. Keeping calm and not starting to sound panicky apply to all emergencies. Keeping the radio chatter to a minimum is usually good. A lost student pilot however can benefit from lots of reassuring chatter. I have literally said "ok, just fly the airplane, we're going to help you." I have asked pilots their name and given them mine and heard an immediate change in their voice from panic to calm.
With the internet nowadays with Liveatc and YouTube there are so many examples to "Monday morning quarterback." I would use those a lot in the training meetings you are wanting to do. Play them and pick them apart.
 
Getting souls and fuel on board was mentioned above as distracting and granted it can be when you're having a "the sheet just hit the fan" emergency but you can expect to get asked it. Souls on board is about how many persons to be looking for if you go down. They don't want to be wasting time looking for more after everyone is accounted for. Fuel on board in time isn't really necessary in a "we're going down now" situation but your going to get asked it. The Crash Crew likes to know how much fuel might be lighting off. You may as well just give souls and fuel when you declare.
 
Velocity173 said:
Instructions during roll out are in the .65 so that isn't going to change anytime soon. If you don't want to be asked where you are parked on roll out, then tell tower while you're airborne. Local is trying to coordinate with ground so they can work their ground movements around your exit taxiway. Knowing where your exiting is kinda important for that.
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I could see that if routing to parking might depend on the exit taxiway, but this has happened to me repeatedly at KASH, where the parallel taxiway extends the length of the runway. It just doesn't matter, tell me to exit at the first taxiway and contact ground, or ask about parking after I'm off the runway. As I said, I can prioritize and won't answer until I'm stopped if conditions and safety dictate, but in general I wish they'd wait with the question.
 
MAKG1 said:
A fix is a navaid or intersection. It's in the PC/G, so a controller should be expected to know it.

FIX− A geographical position determined by visual reference to the surface, by reference to one or more radio NAVAIDs, by celestial plotting, or by another navigational device.

Basically, I wanted something I could put in the GPS. Anything.

They were not happy with flying course instead of heading, as there was a lot of wind.

I suppose no gyro vectors were an option, though I had all my gyros. The problem was an incorrect heading input to the HSI, probably the magnetometer, as it screwed up some of the GPS pages as well.
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Thanks for the clarification, I suspected that was what you were looking for, but I didn't want to assume to much in my initial question. (Didn't know for sure if you even had a GPS available)
IMO if the DG/HSI isn't providing good information you have a Gyro Failure.
This is also one of the reasons I prefer to configure or know how to display my Ground Track with the GPS. Not exactly the same information as Heading but usually close enough.

Brian
 
Controller and pilot here. One thing that controllers have to deal with is pilots who are having a problem, they convey said problem to the controller and then are quiet. Pilots need to realize that if they don't declare an emergency then they've left the controller wondering what your intentions are, which begs those "annoying" questions from the controllers. All that time deciding if you are going to declare an emergency before you actually declare is wasted when controllers need to coordinate rescue operations. You're not going to get into trouble if you declare an emergency and it turns out you fixed the problem before you landed. On the other hand, if you decide to declare an emergency at the last minute, it is going to take rescue a lot longer to get to you after you land/crash. Controllers and rescue personnel are there to help you. Help them help you.
 
If you are talking to an aircraft with a instrument failure, get someone to look up weather in a wide radius to find a field that doesn't require an approach. Often, GA aircraft have hours of extra fuel, it can make sense to send him an hour west or east to get into better weather.

Ask first: how can I help you? Then start your game of 10 questions as per your manual.

With a mechanical failure, see if you can find someone in your facility who is an experienced pilot. The controller who talked the gentleman in the King Air down after his pilot died had someone who could help the pilot to operate the unfamiliar systems.
 
BTW....I won't play the game of 20 questions till I'm done trying everything in the cockpit....check lists...engine restart...yada, yada. You may get silence from me....till I need something.
 
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