Timbeck2
Final Approach
My advice is to give the controller the minimum they need on your initial call: type aircraft, nature of emergency and pilot's desires. That should prevent the 20 questions game.
What can i do to help you?
- Thread starter avgeek11
- Start date
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
It wasn't good enough. I tried that. Lots of wind that day.
The issue was probably the magnetometer (or more likely it's connection), as the HSI tracked turns, but irregularly changed discretely by 20+ deg. Not your typical vacuum failure.
TRocket
Line Up and Wait
I think this is a great thread. (With the exception of a few "Don't talk to me when I'm landing" posts. Get over it, they are just doing their job). I think it's cool that as a controller you are trying to get our perspective, similar to one of us going up in a tower to see what the other side of the mike is like. I did that a couple of months ago and it really was a great experience. I will probably try to do that again in the future. I think a lot of pilots take for granted what controllers really do, (yes with anything there are a few screw up and D**K heads, but for the most part I see it as they are they to help you out, cut them a break). I think pilots fall into a couple categories, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, there are the "Aviation Enthusiasts" - Friendly people that generally just love flying, (this could be any GA Joe Blow to an A380 captain that putts around in is Cub on his off days for fun), the "This is my job" pilot, spends 99% of his time watching the autopilot as he lugs a plane full of people from point A to point B and probably couldn't get a weather briefing on his own if his life depended on it, and of course the "I'm special and super cool because I know how to fly airplanes"...which one are you?
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Controllers are trained NOT to talk to pilots during critical stages of flight which is short final or any time a pilot would have a high workload. Landing roll on a GA aircraft.... especially when controllers want to know where you're parking so they can plan and coordinate with ground control....isn't a big deal unless you suck as a pilot and can't walk and chew gum at the same time. 
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think some of the people speaking up on the subject fly non-GA aircraft, including airliners....Landing roll on a GA aircraft.... especially when controllers want to know where you're parking so they can plan and coordinate with ground control....isn't a big deal unless you suck as a pilot and can't walk and chew gum at the same time.
Isn't the objective of asking for parking location to minimize taxi traffic (particularly crossing the active runway) by turning landed traffic to the appropriate side of the runway rather than the opposite side (from which they will have to cross back over the runway)? That's what I had presumed.
azure
Final Approach
Don't know if that's true in general, it might be, but at KASH, everything is on the same side of the runway.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,714
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
Pretty derogatory comments toward professional pilots. What's your experience to back that up?
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
One of the benefits of a board like this is that we have an opportunity to learn about problems faced by people involved in different aspects of aviation than ourselves. There are bound to be differences of opinion, because people in different positions may have conflicting responsibilities at times.
TRocket
Line Up and Wait
Not meant to be derogatory at all, if you read my post a little more closely, I was just saying that there are some professional pilots do it because they really enjoy their job and to them it is more than just a job, and some do it just to collect a paycheck. I have met both types. This is true in many professions. Please don't misconstrue my words, because there was no ill will meant there at all, merely a comparison.
Kritchlow
Final Approach
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2014
- Messages
- 7,714
- Display Name
Display name:
Kritchlow
Okay... Perhaps I was over sensitive.
That said, anyone can get a WX briefing reading it is the tougher part. Perhaps you get yours from Foreflight, ours is handed to us... Still in SA/FT/notam form.
The controller talking part on roll out is a problem with a two pilot crew, as it does often interfere with our operations. We have calls to be made and control transfers...
ETD: Lol!! Showing my age there with SA's... Meant metars.
That said, anyone can get a WX briefing reading it is the tougher part. Perhaps you get yours from Foreflight, ours is handed to us... Still in SA/FT/notam form.
The controller talking part on roll out is a problem with a two pilot crew, as it does often interfere with our operations. We have calls to be made and control transfers...
ETD: Lol!! Showing my age there with SA's... Meant metars.
avgeek11
Pre-Flight
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2015
- Messages
- 30
- Display Name
Display name:
avgeek11
You bring up the main point during the roll out phase as to why I'm inquiring about where you're parking. if I know the next taxiway will work best for a squeeze play, I most likely won't ask the aircraft where they are parking but if it's in reference to outbound taxiing aircraft whom sometimes share the same common taxiway (Taxiway A) then I'd like to know where you're parking to best accommodate the ground controller and pilot. In all, I'm sure you've read various opinions so far but I thank you for also providing clarification.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'll give you as much info as I can. I prefer you not ask me a lot of questions during the emergency. I'll give you more information as I complete procedures, checklists, etc.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
The last serious emergency I was climbing through 12,000 when the right engine lost oil pressure. I shut it down and secured it, then notified departure what had happened, declared an emergency and asked to return to the airport.
I think the best help to me was being sent to a remote frequency so that there was not a lot of other chatter to other planes going on. All communications between us were short and to the point. I was with one controller on one frequency all the way to parking.
I think the best help to me was being sent to a remote frequency so that there was not a lot of other chatter to other planes going on. All communications between us were short and to the point. I was with one controller on one frequency all the way to parking.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
BigBadLou
Final Approach
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2014
- Messages
- 5,166
- Location
- TX - the friendliest state
- Display Name
Display name:
Lou
I have not had a real emergency yet and I think when I have one, I will be collected enough to say immediately what help I need.
But listening to some ATC tapes of pilots in distress, I often wonder why they babble about their failure, in great detail. That does not help the controller ... and by extension does not help the pilot either.
I guess what I am trying to say is: when you, as a controller, hear a pilot declare an emergency and then go on into a litany of which of his systems went belly up and how he's trying to reboot them, I believe those pilots would benefit greatly from the controller asking "how can I actually help you from down here?" Some pilots, especially under pressure, might not realize it but the two sides of the frequency operate in vastly different environments.
A second request would be: please be patient with us. When I have a real emergency, I am not sure how I will react and a distant warm voice offering assistance can help tremendously.
Thank you for doing a good job, btw, we appreciate it.
And tell some of your cranky co-workers to go get a donut, do some stretches, tell some jokes and then return to the scope.
But listening to some ATC tapes of pilots in distress, I often wonder why they babble about their failure, in great detail. That does not help the controller ... and by extension does not help the pilot either.
I guess what I am trying to say is: when you, as a controller, hear a pilot declare an emergency and then go on into a litany of which of his systems went belly up and how he's trying to reboot them, I believe those pilots would benefit greatly from the controller asking "how can I actually help you from down here?" Some pilots, especially under pressure, might not realize it but the two sides of the frequency operate in vastly different environments.
A second request would be: please be patient with us. When I have a real emergency, I am not sure how I will react and a distant warm voice offering assistance can help tremendously.
Thank you for doing a good job, btw, we appreciate it.
And tell some of your cranky co-workers to go get a donut, do some stretches, tell some jokes and then return to the scope.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,229
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
MarkZ
En-Route
I saw a post on here requesting that controllers do not declare emergencies for pilots. Sorry, I'm unable that. If there is any situation where I feel the best services delivered will be via declaration of emergency, by all means I will exercise the provisions of the .65 and declare for the PIC. Of course, this is a judgement call: I'm culpable and accountable for my actions, so I don't do this blindly. Neither do any of my colleagues.
When there is an emergency, we (at most radar facilities) coordinate with appropriate facilities regarding your flight. At controlled fields, we call the local tower supervisor and advise the situation. At uncontrolled fields, it is typically the FBO or airport manager. In either case, the information we gather becomes necessary should the unthinkable occur.
When we train new controllers to work the job, we try to instill an understanding that a pilot dealing with an emergency situation may not be able to answer questions immediately, and to be patient when trying to gather information. If you, as the PIC, are unable to answer questions, then by all means advise the controller of such. We can get the information we need after you've dealt with the imminent threat.
Above all else, fly the airplane. IF you are in distress, we will part the seas for you.
When there is an emergency, we (at most radar facilities) coordinate with appropriate facilities regarding your flight. At controlled fields, we call the local tower supervisor and advise the situation. At uncontrolled fields, it is typically the FBO or airport manager. In either case, the information we gather becomes necessary should the unthinkable occur.
When we train new controllers to work the job, we try to instill an understanding that a pilot dealing with an emergency situation may not be able to answer questions immediately, and to be patient when trying to gather information. If you, as the PIC, are unable to answer questions, then by all means advise the controller of such. We can get the information we need after you've dealt with the imminent threat.
Above all else, fly the airplane. IF you are in distress, we will part the seas for you.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,229
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Yeah, had a PA-23 with an engine out once while I was on approach and requested the nearest field. Gave nearest field, runway length, CTAF, etc. Since I had no idea what caused it I went ahead and told the pilot I'd be handling the situation as an emergency just to be safe. The fuel tank in the engine out side was dry and the other side had like 4 gals remaining. Just picked the plane up and ferrying it home. Wrote up a nice letter for my assistance but I never got an award or anything. Just part of the job.
azure
Final Approach
Would you consider it appropriate to declare an emergency for a pilot with a fuel gauge stuck on zero? I can see suspecting a low fuel situation, but what if the pilot insisted they suspected it was a stuck gauge, a precautionary landing only and special handling was not necessary?
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,229
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
I've said before, I wouldn't treat it as an emergency. Would not have sent crash vehicles your way either. FAA FSDO would look at it as a required item inop rendering your aircraft un-airworthy but to treat it as an emergency would be a stretch.
Talk to several controllers on the PL declaration. Haven't heard any of them say a PL is a declaration of an emergency. Only official reference you'll see is under emergency landing in some FAA pilot training guide or Wiki. Nothing on the ATC side saying PL is an emergency. Anytime I had a pilot declare PL I immediately followed with "are you declaring an emergency?" That cuts right through the BS and makes the duties clear on the ATC side of the house.
Last edited:
azure
Final Approach
Thanks. The FSDO inspector apparently let the matter slide after I explained that the the gauge was operative again on landing and that I did a thorough preflight and re-verified that the gauge was working before taking off again.
But yeah, they sent the fire trucks in, whole nine yards. Seemed like a bit of an overreaction to me.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I don't understand the question. Unless a pilot thought a fuel gauge stuck on zero was important enough to tell the controller, how would the controller know? If the pilot insisted or knew that it was a stuck gauge then why would the pilot tell the controller? In any case, we wouldn't declare for you for a suspected stuck fuel gauge.
azure
Final Approach
The situation was, I was on flight following to a field about 60 nm further. I decided to make a precautionary landing at a nearby field and told the controller by way of explanation that I was diverting. I guess I gave him TMI (lol)... told him the reason, my suspicions. He asked if I needed emergency handling, I said no. He rolled the trucks anyway.
I'm pretty sure I've posted this here at least a couple of times before... might have been before you joined though.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2012
- Messages
- 13,411
- Location
- California central coast
- Display Name
Display name:
MAKG
Most airplanes have two fuel gauges. I'd be VERY concerned if both read zero. If one doesn't, a precautionary landing may be called for, but not a forced landing. If I saw the gauge read 1/2 tank at one moment, then zero the next without the engine instantly quitting, it's a false gauge reading, which means reverting to the backup (timing). If it falls over several minutes, it may be a severe fuel leak, which is an emergency. Or it may be a sunk float or somesuch. I'd be getting on the ground fast either way.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
azure
Final Approach
1. It was one fuel gauge.
2. I don't have the fuel gauges in my every-time-around scan, more like every couple of minutes or so. I was in light to moderate chop over the mountains of western NY, the gauge was reading half tank at one point, then the next time I glanced at it, it was reading hard zero. I suspected a false reading, of course.
3. The problem proved impossible to reproduce when my mechanic looked at it, though I suspected (and still suspect) it was a stuck float.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 29,889
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
I've had a few declared emergencies. How you can help me in that situation:
1) Roll the trucks whether I ask or not (because I want them - ingrained from my 135 days)
2) Get everyone else out of my way so I can focus on flying
3) Give me what I ask for
The "suitable" field thing may be difficult to understand. What is suitable? If I have an engine failure in the 414, I want a long runway. How long? Well, the longer the better, but 6,000+ ft would be great.
Honestly, all the controllers I've dealt with when I've declared an emergency have been outstanding. I hope that I don't have to experience it again, but I'm sure I will if I keep flying. Keep up the good work.
1) Roll the trucks whether I ask or not (because I want them - ingrained from my 135 days)
2) Get everyone else out of my way so I can focus on flying
3) Give me what I ask for
The "suitable" field thing may be difficult to understand. What is suitable? If I have an engine failure in the 414, I want a long runway. How long? Well, the longer the better, but 6,000+ ft would be great.
Honestly, all the controllers I've dealt with when I've declared an emergency have been outstanding. I hope that I don't have to experience it again, but I'm sure I will if I keep flying. Keep up the good work.