We did an engine stall

Hey, and guess what!!!! Just a week or two ago, I took my brother flying. We did stalls, steep turns and a simulated engine failure. And he has problems with motion sickness!!!!

When we were done, HE TOLD ME HOW AWESOME IT WAS!!!!!!!!!!!! Then he said next time he was in town with his wife, he wanted her to come out and do all the same stuff.

Everyone is different. Know your passengers. Know what experience they want to have. Make it enjoyable for them. There is no cookie cutter approach to this. All of these people are people I've known for my entire life. I'm talking about my siblings.

Now, other times I've taken acquaintances flying, those flights were completely different. The last flight was a 'grand tour' of the Phoenix metro area with a guy I go to church with and his two sons. During that flight, we never went past 20 degrees of bank and a nice smooth flight the entire time.

All of these flights are tailored to the passengers to help that have the most enjoyable experience possible. Sure, if I'm taking pigpenracing's sister flying, it's going to be a nice easy flight, and I'm going to make sure she is as comfortable as possible. But if I'm taking my sister flying, I'm going to perform a power off stall. Was my sister nervous? Yes, but this is also my sister that went skydiving when she turned 18, really enjoys racing go-karts and riding ATV's and dirt bikes.

Stop making snap judgments about situations for which you have practically no knowledge.
 
hotprops said:
wtf are/were you thinking, stalling a ci72 or any aircraft with guest pax, for what reason? 60 plus years of flying and I am at a loss to understand and you are still trying to redeem yourself thinking they had a good time. well you are a kidding yourself and need some remedial training on how to entertain people who entrusted there well being on YOUR skills and judgments. try sightseeing next time .show them some things the have seen from the ground and are now seeing from above for the first time and the flight will always be a success . you owe your sister a apology.
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HA ha ha!!!! You crack me up. You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Maybe my family is just weird. We grew up riding dirt bikes, jumping on trampolines, camping and shooting. The older two of my four sisters both shot elk when they were 12 and 13 years old on hunting trips with my dad. Nearly all of us kids went skydiving for our 18th birthday. I know my family, none of you do. Why don't you all back up and realize I've known them for my entire life, and you've all read about them on a forum on the internet and seen a picture.
 
op this is not going to go well for you . you started this thread why ? another moment of poor judgment I believe.why not tell some more stupid story's
 
hotprops said:
op this is not going to go well for you . you started this thread why ? another moment of poor judgment I believe.why not tell some more stupid story's
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Well at least you said one thing right.

I started the thread because I wanted to share a funny story about something that happened when I was flying an airplane. You see that's why I come here. To share my love of aviation with people that love aviation. I thought that was one of the points of a forum like this. But hey, maybe if I write I start mocking "AoA" people will laugh some more.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I'd just accept it as constructive criticism, lots of people have died ('cause **** happens) doing stunts.
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That's a great point. I need to do better at accepting constructive criticism that isn't provided in the most constructive manner.

Thanks for your help.
 
What I want to know is if you had done a power on stall whether she would still have called it an "engine stall".
 
azpilot said:
Well... Either that, or just get a kick out of scaring the snot our of your sister. That's fun too! ;)
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azpilot said:
Maybe my family is just weird. We grew up riding dirt bikes, jumping on trampolines, camping and shooting. The older two of my four sisters both shot elk when they were 12 and 13 years old on hunting trips with my dad. Nearly all of us kids went skydiving for our 18th birthday. I know my family, none of you do. Why don't you all back up and realize I've known them for my entire life, and you've all read about them on a forum on the internet and seen a picture.
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Your family is certainly not weird, but what were you expecting when you posted? I'll make two points and move on since you are hellbent on defending this to the death it seems.

1. We had a HS rifle team member die in January during winter break. She was just short of her 18th birthday and out trail riding on her ATV (just like she had been for the past 10 years) with friends. She was a passenger on the lead ATV when the follow on ATV driver (another teenager) thought he would scare them a little and come right up behind them. Well, his little plan back fired when he misjudged the distance, skidded and rammed the ATV hard enough to shove them off the hill. She was thrown from the ATV and was killed instantly when she impacted the rocks below (helmet didn't do much to help in this case). S*** happens right....

2. Ever seen someone totally freak out and put a death grip on a yoke because of fear? I don't care how well you think you know someone, flying is a different world and everyone's reactions are unknown until they happen. Fear is a funny thing and can turn an average 100 pound woman into a giant block of cement that the pilot now has to deal with to save everyone's backside. What happens if they grab the yoke and either push or pull with a force so strong you can't break the grip? S*** happens right....

Forums are hard to have rational conversations, but if we were having this same conversation in a hangar face-to-face, I'd have asked the same question - Do you really think this was a good idea? I'd have recommended saving it for a second or third flight after you know for sure what someone's reaction is going to be.

As someone earlier accused me of being on a high horse, well, if it's a common sense approach that I'm riding on in order to avoid becoming another statistic, then...yea, I'm guilty....

Brian
 
This is all much ado about nothing. Stalls at altitude are not a big deal. If the passengers were okay with it... what's the big deal.

A long time ago, I did spins with a student on his FIRST lesson. It was his request. Now I suppose I'm a bad CFI.

At the time, I told him, someday some CFI is going to read my description of your first lesson & think you had an Instructor that was totally nuts.

He later became a successful attorney, has owned a slug of airplanes, & is a good pilot.
 
saddletramp said:
This is all much ado about nothing. Stalls at altitude are not a big deal. If the passengers were okay with it... what's the big deal.

A long time ago, I did spins with a student on his FIRST lesson. It was his request. Now I suppose I'm a bad CFI.

At the time, I told him, someday some CFI is going to read my description of your first lesson & think you had an Instructor that was totally nuts.

He later became a successful attorney, has owned a slug of airplanes, & is a good pilot.
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I certainly wouldn't call you a bad CFI since you are trained to teach those maneuvers, but it was still a risk. How did you know what the students reaction was going to be on his very first flight? What if he thought he was perfectly capable of handling it, but then got in the air and was not? Not sure I would have done that until I was comfortable knowing the student could handle the first few flights, but it was your risk assessment and you determined it was fine. I know, worst case scenarios, but aren't we supposed to look at all angles like that?

Something else to chew on. There were other factors involved in this accident, but my point is still you never really know until you know and then it may be to late.....

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-s...cidents/death-grip-spin-training-turns-tragic

Cheers,
Brian
 
asicer said:
No, because I tell people this during my passenger briefing:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/passenger-brief.102034/page-2#post-2250491
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If that works for you, great. Scare someone bad enough and that pre-flight goes out the window like it never happened, that's just human nature. I had a friend who took up a young man for his first flight (he was maybe 13) about 6 years ago and distinctly remember the pre-flight went something very close to yours. Not 15 minutes into the flight and they hit a pocket of light turbulence that was unforecasted. Guess what the first thing he reached for was. Fortunately, my friend was ready for it and blocked his move.

I love that my Beech has the single yoke option for this very reason, although I don't use one (still have the dual yoke) because I stopped taking passengers outside my known crew (aka family). Something about cleaning up puke in the cabin that I will never forget even after I specifically showed them where the bags where and how to use them during the pre-flight briefing. That was a bad day... :rolleyes: :(

Brian
 
I generally avoid anything odd with first timers. I've found one thing (and to us it sounds silly but to them it's a big deal) that the more adventurous like almost to a T, and it's really simple.

Explain that airplanes glide and don't fall out of the sky when engine power is lost. Let them know you're pulling the engine power to idle and trim for best glide. Show them the very thing the news media says isn't possible.

We are still flying with very little thrust. See? I won't turn the engine all the way off, but I could. The airplane must descend slowly to maintain speed, but you can see how this is a perfectly controllable and manageable situation. Often the TV news will say silly things that make this seem impossible. They'll say that the engine quit and the airplane crashed. Airplanes don't crash because the engine quit.

Anyway. Then just push the power back up and trim for level.

It actually impresses a whole lot of people, perhaps sadly, but it's a lot nicer introduction to basic aerodynamics than a stall.

For the rare few who want the G forces and the adrenaline junkies, you can do other stuff. Just keep an eye on them for turning green. Even those that like it often aren't aware that they are starting to have vestibular system reactions to the delta between their eyes and their balance system.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I'd just accept it as constructive criticism, lots of people have died ('cause **** happens) doing stunts.
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Are you defining a stall as a "stunt"?

I define it as a routine maneuver that any pilot should be comfortable demonstrating safely on any flight...
 
azpilot said:
Did you really just compare a power off stall in a 172 to a snap roll in a pitts? Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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But, I think to someone that has never flown, a stall may SEEM as adventurous as a snap roll...

Although I wouldn't "jump on you" for doing it (to each their own), I wouldn't dream of doing stalls for a new passenger either...
 
flight2000 said:
Which begs the question, why the hell would you stall an airplane with non-pilot's onboard, especially those on their first trip?????
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denverpilot said:
I generally avoid anything odd with first timers.
Click to expand...

First time I try to give them as close to an "airline" ride as I can muster. If they want to go up again, we can then get more interesting if they're interested.
 
hotprops said:
wtf are/were you thinking, stalling a ci72 or any aircraft with guest pax, for what reason? 60 plus years of flying and I am at a loss to understand and you are still trying to redeem yourself thinking they had a good time. well you are a kidding yourself and need some remedial training on how to entertain people who entrusted there well being on YOUR skills and judgments. try sightseeing next time .show them some things the have seen from the ground and are now seeing from above for the first time and the flight will always be a success . you owe your sister a apology.
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Well.

The first time I took my non-pilot niece up for a ride, I not only stalled the plane, I kicked in full right rudder as well. Had her count the turns in the resulting spin. We also turned the dirty side up for a while, did some rolls and a few loops.

For what reason? She wanted to experience aerobatics.

BTW, I followed up the flight with my niece with a similar one with my nephew. Both had a great time. I'd never do an aerobatic flight with my wife. A couple months later, my nephew, who when younger was extremely afraid of heights, jumped out of a perfectly good airplane at 12,000 feet. Now that's nuts!

The point I'm making is that maybe, just maybe, the OP knows more about his passengers than the somewhat judgemental folks here. If the OP says his sister had a good time, I suspect she did, in fact, have a good time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
MAKG1 said:
No, you do not stall the aircraft. You set off the stall warning. BIG difference.
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Explain why a 3 point landing is called a "full-stall" landing, if you are asserting this. Some Cessnas do have the third wheel in the back where it belongs, you know....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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azpilot said:
Sigh.... This is why I love this board so much. (sarcasm) I must be a mascochist for wanting to come here and post about a fun experience I had. Pilots really are some of the most arrogant know it all's you'll ever come across. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I can't believe anyone wants to associate with us.

There is absolutely nothing dangerous about demonstrating a simple power off stall in the practice area at 2,000' AGL on a Arizona VFR day with no clouds for 100 miles and visibility over 20 miles. Clearing turns were performed. Radio calls were made.
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Hey, I got it. To summarize your original post: Funny that a passenger called an aerodynamic stall an engine stall. Passengers fully briefed before flight. Great fun was had by all. Right?

I agree with you that all first flights don't have to be airliner-like, gentle turn, sightseeing flights only. The key is to, as you said, know your audience.

I recently took three women (One from Tunisia, one from Kazakhstan, and one from South Africa) that my wife was mentoring as part of a technical women's event, for their very first ride in a small plane. We not only landed off airport, we landed in the water! They had a great time, and the one from Kazakhstan wanted to then go up in a Decathlon with me, which we did. She was dissapointed that we didn't do any aerobatics. The main purpose of the Decathlon flight was to see if we could spot any whales in Monterey Bay, so we weren't wearing chutes, but I'm quite sure she would have had a great time doing some simple aerobatics if we had been wearing chutes.

All three said that their flight was a highlight of their trip.

Know your audience.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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azpilot said:
Sigh.... This is why I love this board so much. (sarcasm) I must be a mascochist for wanting to come here and post about a fun experience I had. Pilots really are some of the most arrogant know it all's you'll ever come across. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I can't believe anyone wants to associate with us.

There is absolutely nothing dangerous about demonstrating a simple power off stall in the practice area at 2,000' AGL on a Arizona VFR day with no clouds for 100 miles and visibility over 20 miles. Clearing turns were performed. Radio calls were made.
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Ignore the negative comments. As long as your family had fun, and everyone walked away without any bent metal, it was a great flight. I'm sure they're looking forward to the next one!
 
jimhorner said:
Explain why a 3 point landing is called a "full-stall" landing, if you are asserting this. Some Cessnas do have the third wheel in the back where it belongs, you know....


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This doesn't involve a conventional geared aircraft, so that has no bearing.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Where I'm from, a stall is part of a test flight, fcf, whatever you want to call it, not a routine maneuver.
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The great thing about aviation is the diversity of experiences that can be had. For some, where they come from, a stall is not a routine maneuver. For others, in the tailwheel world, a stall is a routine manuever. For some, landing on water or snow is an emergency, for others, it's routine. For some, bank angles greater than 30 degrees or so is non-routine, for others, spending time upside down is par for the course.

Some folks want to fly like mini airliners, and that's fine. Others like to use their planes for sightseeing and $100 hamburger runs, and that's okay too. Others want to use their planes to get in touch with their spiritual selves, and that's great. Some like to use the plane to take full advantage of the third dimension. No worries there.

The point is that one person's non-routine, test flight only maneuver is another person's routine fun thing to do.


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GlennAB1 said:
You know.... real airplanes have landing gear components with no wheel at all, back there. ;)
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According to one definition I read (can't remember where) a real plane has two wings, a round engine, and a tail skid. Funny, and I can appreciate those sentiments.

Seriously though, aren't we lucky there exist such a great diversity of flying machines to appreciate and enjoy? I have a Bellanca Viking, which is a great traveling machine to get from point A to point B quickly. I also have access to a Super Decathlon, which isn't so great for traveling, but it sure is fun to go turn upside down with when the urge strikes. I can also rent a Lake Amphibian on those nice summer weekends when playing on the water seems to be the thing to do.

Never flown a jet, but I sure can appreciate how quickly an airliner can get me all the way across the country in just a few hours. And I was absolutely green with envy a couple of weeks ago sitting in the lounge of the Sheraton Anchorage watching some F-22s take off from Elmendorf, go vertical and accelerate straight up! Wow. But that took nothing away from the fun we had renting a 172, which has got a red line speed at my Vike's cruise speed, and sightseeing around the glaciers..

To bring it back to this thread's topic, just as there is great diversity of flying machines, there is great diversity of people too. While some first time passengers should only be given airliner type, sightseeing flights, there are others who are more adventuresome and appreciate a little more, shall we say, energetic, 3d flights. It is the pilot's responsibility to determine in consultation with the passenger, what they are looking for...

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jimhorner said:
Explain why a 3 point landing is called a "full-stall" landing, if you are asserting this. Some Cessnas do have the third wheel in the back where it belongs, you know....


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Having inspected the results of a full stall on a Cessna, it's a garden-variety misnomer.

That full stall landing totaled the aircraft. It only takes a drop from several feet to do that.
 
MAKG1 said:
Having inspected the results of a full stall on a Cessna, it's a garden-variety misnomer.

That full stall landing totaled the aircraft. It only takes a drop from several feet to do that.
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What kind of Cessna? People who 3-point 170's, 180's, 185's, 140's, and L-19's (all Cessnas) regularly do full stall landings. When I fly a Decathlon or Citabria, I regularly do full stall landings. The trick is to stall just a few inches above the runway and have the wing stop flying at the same time as it reaches the runway. The stick is all the way back in my lap at touchdown.




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jimhorner said:
What kind of Cessna? People who 3-point 170's, 180's, 185's, 140's, and L-19's (all Cessnas) regularly do full stall landings. When I fly a Decathlon or Citabria, I regularly do full stall landings. The trick is to stall just a few inches above the runway and have the wing stop flying at the same time as it reaches the runway. The stick is all the way back in my lap.




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That the stick in your lap doesn't matter. You're close to stall, and the warning is going off, but a stall break is not going to happen. You'll mush it onto the ground first.

I land 182s with the yoke in my lap, too. With the nose up.

The affected aircraft was a 172, and the carnage was jaw dropping. Had the third wheel been in back, it would have been even worse. Probably would have flipped over his prop strike.

It's just a misnomer, nothing more. People just don't want to call it "landing with the stall warning sounding" 'cause that's a mouthful.
 
MAKG1 said:
That the stick in your lap doesn't matter. You're close to stall, and the warning is going off, but a stall break is not going to happen. You'll mush it onto the ground first.

I land 182s with the yoke in my lap, too. With the nose up.

The affected aircraft was a 172, and the carnage was jaw dropping. Had the third wheel been in back, it would have been even worse. Probably would have flipped over his prop strike.

It's just a misnomer, nothing more. People just don't want to call it "landing with the stall warning sounding" 'cause that's a mouthful.
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Tell you what. Take a ride in a tailwheel plane, note the airspeed, attitude, vertical speed, and control position at touchdown in a three point landing. Then replicate those same conditions at altitude. You'll find that you are, in fact, stalled. The nose will drop.

And, they were calling it full stall landings before stall warning horns existed.

Now, I agree that full stall landings are not a good thing in trike geared planes, my point is that your general statement to the effect that planes are not ever stalled at touchdown isn't, in fact, correct.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Hey didn't you read you the forum rules????

RULE #1: Never argue with THE MAKG!
 
I don't want to pile on because plenty of people have given you grief but let me just say that IMO, first GA flights are a very unique and important opportunity to share the amazing experience of private flight. As such, I really try to make them as positive as possible for the passenger - that means using their personality and motivations as the guide for what to do rather than what you find fun.

You know your sister better than we do and perhaps stalls were exactly the right way to demonstrate GA flight to her but for 99% of people an easy, painless, comfortable trip to somewhere they would like to go but where ground or airline transportation is impractical is typically a better first demo of GA flying. I really like to take someone for a meal or overnight to somewhere reasonably far away that is very different and a little exotic. In my experience, passengers are much more impressed with a smooth, comfortable, easy flight to Charleston without having to go through security and the hassle of the airlines than they are of being shown cool flight maneuvers.
 
I'm firmly in the "know your passenger" camp.

I've done a stall with 1 first time passenger. I know him well. He was contemplating Air Force academy and pilot training and he wanted to do it. We did 1 power off stall in a C-172 C which has some of the gentlest stall characteristics I've ever experienced. He loved it. I also let him fly the plane around for a while at altitude. I'd do it again in a heartbeat given the same conditions.

I've also taken a number of children and adults on their first rides and been entirely gentle and careful and I will NEVER take a smaller child (say 12 or under) on their first ride without another adult along. I want somebody else to deal with a freaked out child if it becomes necessary.

So, I guess some here would consider me a menace. But none of my passengers have. Nor have any of the instructors I've worked with over the years. I'll take their judgement over anybody who hasn't even met me.

John
 
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