The symbol is an open blue square. Check the sectional legend to see what that symbol means, and what the possible symbols are for a VOR, VOR-DME, and VORTAC. Therein lies the answer.
Well, if it were a VOR it would have hexagon symbol and probably compass rose.First time I've seen a VOR on the chart without a compass rose.
It’s a stand alone DME. They have those to accommodate DME/DME/RNAV for the VOR Minimum Operational Network (MON).
Punched in the FAA airport designation for Princeton and GPS was taking us ten miles north of airport. WTF! Did not notice the PNN VOR on the sectional chart until later.
First time I've seen a VOR on the chart without a compass rose.
View attachment 141709.
The chart guys will omit compass roses on VORs if they decide it was too cluttered. It means diddly squat other than that.
Not necessarily. The charting office can and does sometimes omit the compass rose for chart clutter concerns. Note for example the Cowboy and Rangers VORs in the DFW area (CVE and FUZ).Well, if it were a VOR it would have compass rose.
FUZ has a rose on the High Chart. I can’t see it but I’d guess both are on the A-2. CVE is on the TCA chart but not the SectionalNot necessarily. The charting office can and does sometimes omit the compass rose for chart clutter concerns. Note for example the Cowboy and Rangers VORs in the DFW area (CVE and FUZ).
I didn't check those others, just the sectional, but that does kind of prove the point that compass rose are definitely not required on the chart.FUZ has a rose on the High Chart. I can’t see it but I’d guess both are on the A-2. CVE is on the TCA chart but not the Sectional
The whole reason they are kept around as DME-only stations is that they are used, and necessary for, DME/DME RNAV, which is used by airliners and many other turbine aircraft. More or less as a backup to GPS.Seems like a DME without a VOR would be of limited use, especially in today’s MON era.
You're right, if you're receiving only one DME source. But receive 3, 4 or 10 DME sources and now you have a good position. That's DME/DME RNAV, which is essentially a ground-based "GPS".It’s not that a DME only isn’t of no use, rather adding a VOR radial would be much more useful.
I am X miles from a point, but can’t tell you where except that it must be somewhere on a circle from that point with a radius X.
Didn’t know that was a thing, or that there were navigation boxes that could compute that.But receive 3, 4 or 10 DME sources and now you have a good position. That's DME/DME RNAV, which is essentially a ground-based "GPS".
I think that one did use radials to calculate position.In the early 80's King had one that was IFR approved. KNS 80 I believe. Worked great. Most airlines have that built into the FMS as a backup if GPS goes out. And the DME portion of ILS-DME's are used too.
You are x miles from two or more different points. VOR radials are subject to the accuracy within +/- 4 degrees thing.It’s not that a DME only isn’t of no use, rather adding a VOR radial would be much more useful.
I am X miles from a point, but can’t tell you where except that it must be somewhere on a circle from that point with a radius X.
You're thinking about this from a G.A. viewpoint. The National Airspace System (NAS) is designed primarily for commercial aviation with G.A. as an additional user.Seems like a DME without a VOR would be of limited use, especially in today’s MON era.
Does the military still use TACAN?And most (almost all) of the DME-only facilities USED TO be a VOR/DME or VORTAC...
Does the military still use TACAN?
I had assumed that they all had been and they just turned the azimuth off. So there have been some newly commissioned stand alone DME’s ??You're right, if you're receiving only one DME source. But receive 3, 4 or 10 DME sources and now you have a good position. That's DME/DME RNAV, which is essentially a ground-based "GPS".
And most (almost all) of the DME-only facilities USED TO be a VOR/DME or VORTAC, but the VOR portion was decommissioned as part of the MON program. So adding a VOR is not an option, the reverse was already decided, as a VOR is much more costly to maintain than a DME-only facility.
The KNS80 is a course-line computer. Back in the 1980s, we all just called then an "RNAV" because they were pretty much the only type of RNAV that was available to G.A. airplanes. I didn't even learn the name "course-line computer" until many years later.The KNS80 created waypoints by using both VOR and DME information
Supposedly there is a thing where ‘offset’ is used oceanically in RVSM sky. A couple miles left or right of centerline so planes ain’t merged a 1000 feet apart. But ATC doesn’t assign the offsets. The pilots manage that themselves.You're thinking about this from a G.A. viewpoint. The National Airspace System (NAS) is designed primarily for commercial aviation with G.A. as an additional user.
Large airplanes have inertial navigation systems that provide data to their flight management systems. They'll have at least two inertial reference units, many have three. The IRUs can dead reckon, from an initial position when aligned before takeoff, and maintain a fairly accurate position without external input. The IRUs also provide attitude references for the flight instrumentation systems.
The FMS position(s) would drift over time from IRU precession. Various systems have been used to update the position including manually entering a position when flying over a VHF fix. Most commonly, with a system known as DME/DME/IRU. That used DME fixes, from multiple stations, to update the FMS position by tracking the amount of drift in the IRS position. For that to work, the FMS had to have a current database of the area in which it was flying and there must be ground stations with good geometry within range. When you fly out of range of the ground stations, or out of the limits of your onboard database, DME updating wasn't possible and the FMS would dead reckon from the IRS data.
The 767, without GPS for example, could cross an ocean for up to six hours without any position updating other than the IRS. At the end of the crossing, it might be a mile or two off course due to map shift but the separation standards for oceanic airspace, at that time, allowed for that and position updating would resume as VHF ground stations came within range. Today, heavily traveled oceanic airspace require higher accuracy.
When GPS came along it provided a much more accurate and reliable method for updating the FMS(s) position(s). Normally, the GPS updating is the most accurate and that is what the FMS(s) use. When GPS isn't available, DME updating is used. If both are unavailable, the system degrades to dead reckoning.
The accuracy of your position(s) is displaced as an Actual Navigation Performance (ANP) figure. With GPS updating, it might be 0.2 or 0.3. The type of airspace, or type of procedure, you're flying will have a Required Navigation Performance (RNP) requirement. A standard RNAV approach will have an RNP of 0.30. RNAV RNP approaches can go as low as RNP 0.10. Oceanic airspace can be either RNP 10.0 or RNP 4.0. Domestic enroute is RNP 2.0 and terminal (App/Dep) is RNP 1.0. If your ANP falls below your current ANP (a higher number) you'll get an alert similarly to how a bad VOR signal will produce a flag.
You'll see some RNAV procedures with the note "DME/DME/IRU - N/A". That means that even if your non-GPS FMS is achieving an otherwise sufficient RNP for the procedure, you are not authorized to fly it with only DME/DME/IRU.
That is why the DME only stations are valuable in the NAS. They provide a fallback for position updating when reliable GPS is lost.
When I got my instrument rating in 1992, the C172 I flew had 2 VORs and an ADF. Not even DME. Less than a year later after we moved to Colorado, I had access to a rental TR182 with a KNS80. I would get the radial/distance for mountain passes and program them in. I thought comparing it to sliced bread was a gross understatement.The KNS80 is a course-line computer. Back in the 1980s, we all just called then an "RNAV" because they were pretty much the only type of RNAV that was available to G.A. airplanes. I didn't even learn the name "course-line computer" until many years later.
In the mid-1990s, I flew DC8s that had VLF/OMEGA as their only RNAV. The nav units were replaced by a GA-style GPS when the VLF/OMEGA system was shut down in late 1997.
That is called SLOP for Strategic Lateral Offset Procedure.Supposedly there is a thing where ‘offset’ is used oceanically in RVSM sky. A couple miles left or right of centerline so planes ain’t merged a 1000 feet apart. But ATC doesn’t assign the offsets. The pilots manage that themselves.
Only in the planes new enough to have a TACAN receiver. I bet a few of our .mil members can tell stories about that. As one T-38 pilot at a fly-in told me, regarding the avionics, "If you can say 'unable,' you can fly this plane."Does the military still use TACAN?
I intentionally used the ambiguity of "almost all" since I'm sure there is at least one somewhere that was installed directly as a DME-only.I had assumed that they all had been and they just turned the azimuth off. So there have been some newly commissioned stand alone DME’s ??
I think you are correct. -SkipI think that one did use radials to calculate position.
DME/DME navigation is used by airlines now and it is one of the potential replacements for MON and the remaining VORs.Seems like a DME without a VOR would be of limited use, especially in today’s MON era.
There are some that I’m aware of that were installed collocated with NDBs. KSUN used to have an NDB DME approach, as did KULM. I don’t think the approaches are active anymore, but the DMEs might remain.I intentionally used the ambiguity of "almost all" since I'm sure there is at least one somewhere that was installed directly as a DME-only.