video of 737 pilot during difficult short final

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by NoHeat, Mar 18, 2017.

  1. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route PoA Supporter

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    A Polish pilot of a 737, Artur Kielak, recorded a video showing himself during a difficult short final. The camera is placed behind the controls, so that you see the control movement, which to me looks extreme.

    I'd like to hear from 737 drivers -- is this unusual, to make such large control movements?

    https://www.cnet.com/news/watch-how-hard-a-pilot-works-to-land-a-737-in-high-winds/

    What might be even more interesting, that page also shows a different video of Kielak, doing acrobatics in an Extra. More of those acrobatics videos are on his Youtube channel.

    edit - hyperlink fixed, I hope.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  2. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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  3. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He's a yoke pumping extraordinaire.

    Pilots like that are why the F-18 Hornet was built.
     
  4. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    we know the aircraft is airborne, yes?
     
  5. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Perhaps our 737 pilots will chime in on what they think.
     
  6. Ryanb

    Ryanb En-Route PoA Supporter

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  7. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    During challenging approaches, there can be a lot of movement. I would say it is legit. I try not to get that "active" on the controls but you do what you have to do.

    8 years and about 6,000 hours flying the airplane.
     
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  8. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Don't know if Greg ever flew the 737. I'm pretty sure he flys the 777 now however.

    I've never flown a 737, but have a fair amount of time in the A320 family. In the Bus you could never control to that point and get away with it.
    Again, the Boeing product may be different.
     
  9. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Sorry... didn't see your post when I responded.
     
  10. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    No problem. I flew the 737 for 5 years early in my career. The 777 for 17. Now back on the 737 for the last 2 years.
     
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  11. jbDC9

    jbDC9 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yep. Watching that almost made me airsick.

    But hey, I only have 18 years and 15000+ hours in the 737, so maybe I just haven't seen everything yet...
     
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  12. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    Not a 73 guy, but plenty of time in other large transport category stuff. Like Greg said above, during a windy, gusty approach and landing there will be quite a bit of control movement. The frequency of his inputs seem about right, the amplitude of elevator input seems pretty extreme. I think it may be more of a field of view issue with the camera making the pumping of the yoke look worse than it really was.
     
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  13. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you try that in the Bus, won't the computer simply say "F U" and cancel out half the inputs?
     
  14. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Ahhh yes, the yoke pumpers. You don't just see it in the heavier stuff - I've seen it in Warriors, Citations, Gulfstreams, you name it.

    I guess if it gets the job done, then whatever, but it strikes me as a whole lot of unnecessary effort.
     
  15. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    It depends just how much input you put in.

    For example (assuming Normal Law), you can roll in up to 67° of bank. The flight computers will not let you go any further. Let go of the stick and it will roll back to 33° and stay there until you give further input.
    Also in Normal Law it will do its best to maintain as close to 1G as possible, so pitch & roll rates may be reduced.
     
  16. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Our passengers in the corporate airplanes could tell the difference between real turbulence and pilot-induced turbulence. We had one captain that I'd get complaints about every time he flew. :(
     
  17. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer En-Route

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    The 145 needed a bit of aggressive control movements depending on the conditions. However, guard your loins after landing. The elevator will nut check you blue in windy conditions.

    Call me back in a few months and I'll let you know how the three CRJ models are. The sim makes me think the 200 is a 145 sibling and the 7/9 kinda slowly moan to where you want it.
     
  18. catmandu

    catmandu Line Up and Wait

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    FTFY, shoe bastid! :p
     
  19. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    But you can break a Beech 18 acting like the guy in the video!

    To be fair, my comment wasn't meant as a slam on brown shoes. I apologize if it was taken that way.

    I was more referring to the way the computer in the Hornet will ignore (or dampen) crazy control inputs that might break the aircraft.
     
  20. Salty

    Salty Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'm gonna call bravo sierra. Looks to me like stuff hanging in the background that doesn't move a bit during that ridiculous dance.
     
  21. Art VanDelay

    Art VanDelay Pattern Altitude

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    Boeing product is different - controls are actually hooked up to something !
     
  22. catmandu

    catmandu Line Up and Wait

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    Totally understood, no slam taken. Just some intra-service joviality. Was an EOOW and OOD before I let computers decide what I wanted to do with an airplane, so I am truly the bastid!

    (Layman translation: I drove ships before I flew onto boats)
     
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  23. LT4247

    LT4247 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Watched the video. Man that is some bronco billy stuff going right there! He did seem pretty pleased with himself after.
     
  24. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    I don't see anything in the background that CAN move.
     
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  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Truly LOLing here at that one. Trying to imagine the first day of working the line on a windy day, some old codger Captain handing the FO a cup and telling him to go find a restroom and put it on...
     
  26. Hawker800

    Hawker800 Line Up and Wait

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    Captain Yank and Bank.
     
  27. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He appears to be rocking out to Metallica.
     
  28. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think the preload on the air-ride needs adjusted. Maybe Ted could help with that?
     
  29. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer En-Route

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    My first day I unlocked the elevator and proceeded to put my hands in my lap. The captain about coughed up his coffee yelling for me to keep hold of it. Most windy flights the last thing we did crossing the line was unlock the elevator. It kept your arms from getting tired holding that thing full forward while it tried to buck.

    During my first sim session here as "acting" captain I told my sim partner I got the bottoms you have tops. Even the sim instructor let out a WTF. It took a minute to explain the saying. LOL
     
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  30. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Wow, the ERJ doesn't have some damper system on the elevator or aileron. The CRJ flutter dampers work great. The controls don't move.
     
  31. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I'm surprised an airplane with hydraulic flight controls would move so easily in the wind.

    That said, I used to fly the Citation 680 and on a windy day we taxied with the controls locked. The 680 did not have hydraulic controls.
     
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  32. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer En-Route

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    The elevator on the 145 is all direct cable and pulleys with no damper system. It's basically a Cessna elevator just bigger.

    If it was the captain's leg I wouldn't hand off controls until I saw a firm grip. On landing I'd take the yoke when I heard "you have tops" and I'd normally try to lock the controls ASAP.
     
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  33. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    ...so next time there's an inexplicable delay right before lineup or after landing on a 145, we know what the real reason is. The pilot just joined the Bee Gees...
     
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  34. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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  35. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Looked to me like he had the nose going up and down pretty good with the yoke pumping. Not sure the wind had anything to do with it. PIO anyone?
     
  36. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    No. I think what everyone loses sight of is that these planes have quite a bit on momentum behind them. In gusty crosswinds, inputs have to be rather quick and in some cases, extreme. Once you see the nose start to rise or fall, you're already late. You need a rather significant input in the opposite direction to stop the trend, then back off to what you think is normal. That's why you're seeing what looks like "pulsing" of the yoke/wheel. The input you're seeing is more than likely a movement to stop an unwanted trend before it gets worse, then the input is taken out and repeated as necessary. This is more prevalent in older, cable-pully aircraft. When I flew the 707, this is what it would look like in the on a gusty crosswind day. It was like driving a truck with no power steering. Inputs needed to be rapid and aggressive to keep the nose pointed where you wanted to. In the MD-11 and 777, you needed less amplitude to your corrections, but the same "impulse" type corrections. These are big airplanes and little tiny corrections aren't going to cut it when the nose is tracking all over the sky.

    Here's a couple more examples.




     
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  37. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    No. Normal for transport aircraft in those conditions. Also, the MD80s (and the rest of the DC9 series) do not have powered ailerons or elevators. They are flown by control-tabs which don't give the instant response of a powered control surface.
     
  38. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Interesting. I need to do a bit of research on that.
    Are you saying the yoke is controlling "trim tabs" so to speak??
     
  39. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    Control tabs, not trim tabs. Also called a servo-tab. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_tab

    On DC9s (all the way through the MD80s, MD90s, and the B717) the only powered control surface is the rudder (though there is a powered actuator used to move the elevator toward nose-down when it doesn't respond in a deep stall condition). Even the much larger DC8 had an unpowered elevator with basically the same control-tab system.

    See the information released recently on the UofM basketball team's charter accident in YIP. One elevator on the MD83 was jammed so the airplane didn't rotate and the late reject resulted in an overrun. https://go.usa.gov/xXkVK
     
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  40. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    McD did some very interesting and odd things.