Upgrading to a faster plane

DavidWhite said:
To have a new panel fabricated, painted, and installed? We didn't just swap them around.
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yep, it's just a sheet of aluminum. Take a closer look at the left half of the panel in the photo. Maybe a hundred $$ and a few weekends.
 
JHW said:
In the deb though it's even easier, you can fit the floating left-side panel section from a newer bo
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Actually, no. Look at the panel in the Deb. It's fixed in place. Note how the center engine inst stick out on the pod? The rest is flush fixed mounting. It gets pretty hard to do over, and rather pricey. The inst panel in the Bo is floating, and relatively easy to mod, but the Deb requires a full cut, and refit.
 
docmirror said:
OK, here ya go. The good: Solid airframe, standard tail, shoulder harnesses(I won't fly without). The bad: It's a Deb, so fixed cowl flaps, a bit heavier and slower than the same Bo. The in between: Tip tanks. I can't use them, my bladder range is ~ 4 hours. More than that in any GA piston is waterboarding. Also slows down the plane. E-225 engine, somewhat harder to service, but will burn auto fuel. High TT means a lot of cycle on the gear stuff. Things do wear out. I would check the nose scissor bushings if they haven't been replaced. Non-standard panel, which will make a difference when you start IFR. Non-standard radio location, again makes a difference later. Prolly has a generator not an alternator. limits elec load eventually.

If the paint and int are as good in person, will last a long time. No A/P, although I have one in a box I'll sell you pretty cheap for that plane.
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Paint is great in person, interior is about a 4/10....
 
docmirror said:
Actually, no. Look at the panel in the Deb. It's fixed in place. Note how the center engine inst stick out on the pod? The rest is flush fixed mounting. It gets pretty hard to do over, and rather pricey. The inst panel in the Bo is floating, and relatively easy to mod, but the Deb requires a full cut, and refit.
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all of which can be found in a salvage yard
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My guess is that he does. And his name is JHW.



Confirmed.
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That explains it.

I haven't the tools, know-how, or experience to attempt to do something like that myself.

I can change the oil, and put air in the tires. I can screw and unscrew stuff. I'm really good at that - but otherwise that's about the extent of my airplane maintenance abilities.
 
DavidWhite said:
Here's what it looked like before I bought it

oldpanel.jpg
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Did you have an amp and woofers in there?
 
Harlem hood wheels, nice mod if you wanna put her down on that skinny patch of pavement in the bronx, or trade em for some avgas.
 
JHW said:
all of which can be found in a salvage yard
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Materials aren't a problem. A 1/4 sheet of T-2024 isn't much. Now, when you start working it, and cutting, boring, lighting, positioning, fitting, connecting, trays, supports, etc things add up. The est to redo my old scatter panel Bo which is floating was about $7k with me doing a fair amount of work. The radio tray is many hours of laborous detail work.
 
Here's another option to redo a beech shotgun panel. This is my travel air, somebody did this before I got it. If you just hard-mount things and don't go to the floating panel it is pretty simple. This is not exactly how I'd do it myself, but it's close enough that I haven't found the motivation to rip it out and start over.
 

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JHW said:
Here's another option to redo a beech shotgun panel. This is my travel air, somebody did this before I got it. If you just hard-mount things and don't go to the floating panel it is pretty simple. This is not exactly how I'd do it myself, but it's close enough that I haven't found the motivation to rip it out and start over.
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You got a 337 for that pencil? Looks nice, I have the floating panel, but the plane came that way. What's the pro/con of the hard mount vs floating?
 
When I did mine, I concluded that the only discernable difference was whether I used the mounting screws with the rubber insert. Since I did, mine floats.

bartmc said:
You got a 337 for that pencil? Looks nice, I have the floating panel, but the plane came that way. What's the pro/con of the hard mount vs floating?
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Jhernandez04 said:
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...ton/1960/Beechcraft/C33+Debonair/1572180.html

What do you guys think?
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I was gonna say but doc and Bart said everything I would have sad below.

docmirror said:
OK, here ya go. The good: Solid airframe, standard tail, shoulder harnesses(I won't fly without). The bad: It's a Deb, so fixed cowl flaps, a bit heavier and slower than the same Bo. The in between: Tip tanks. I can't use them, my bladder range is ~ 4 hours. More than that in any GA piston is waterboarding. Also slows down the plane. E-225 engine, somewhat harder to service, but will burn auto fuel. High TT means a lot of cycles on the gear stuff. Things do wear out. I would check the nose scissor bushings if they haven't been replaced. Non-standard panel, which will make a difference when you start IFR. Non-standard radio location, again makes a difference later. Prolly has a generator not an alternator. limits elec load eventually.

If the paint and int are as good in person, will last a long time. No A/P, although I have one in a box I'll sell you pretty cheap for that plane.
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bartmc said:
Yeah, but, look at the radio stack in that Debbie, or rather that "radio debris field".
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DavidWhite said:
That explains it.

I haven't the tools, know-how, or experience to attempt to do something like that myself.

I can change the oil, and put air in the tires. I can screw and unscrew stuff. I'm really good at that - but otherwise that's about the extent of my airplane maintenance abilities.
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Also explains the install of the old IFR GPS. If you're doing the labor yourself, it makes more sense. But if you're paying $4k for install anyway...
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Very possible! Im getting 120-125kts on average. It has good pants on it though?

I prefer to switch because my work takes me different regions, 300nms this year.... maybe 600nm next year.

The 30-45minutes it may save me in time is worth it to me. I just want to be safe and not buy a plane that is too much right now. I feel a 30kt increase in speed and retract is within my abilities. I dont think a twin is for me just yet......
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UNTIL YOU GET A 60 knot headwind. Those true airs peeds are marginally useful at best. The bottom end of a real travelling machine would be at about 170-180 knots and even that I still consider more of joyride than a tool. Even if you do 2.5 hours on a 300 nm trip, take into account going to the airport, setting up the airplane, then parking the plane, renting a car and your time savings door to door will be negligible. Then take into account the huge risk you incur in being low time and weather flying. I would still drive or hire a driver and let him drive while I relax on the highway. Cheaper. This is why piston GA is pretty much dead.
 
Required TAS to be useful also depends on typical altitudes. 170+ is good in the low altitudes. If your plane does flight levels, then 250+ is better since the headwinds get worse with altitude in most cases.
 
bartmc said:
Yeah, but, look at the radio stack in that Debbie, or rather that "radio debris field".
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About spit out the coffee :goofy:

I remember window shopping planes before I had my instrument rating and I didn't give a hoot what the panel looked like. Now when I am snooping through trade a plane I go straight to the panel shots :lol:

I don't really care so much that a plane has a 430 or other gps as I flew a lot of places IFR in a plane lacking these, and did just fine. At least in my neck of the woods an airport with a full ILS is never far away. But I would tell you that at a minimum get something with an orderly six pack, and dual nav/com. An ADF will greatly add to your number of approaches available. (lots of ILS approaches use NDBs as a required fix)
 
cirrusmx said:
UNTIL YOU GET A 60 knot headwind. Those true airs peeds are marginally useful at best. The bottom end of a real travelling machine would be at about 170-180 knots and even that I still consider more of joyride than a tool.
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I've only had a 60 kt headwind once, and it was for about 45 minutes of my trip when I was at 10,500 crossing the mountains. I had to climb that high to get out of some serious wave action. After I crossed the mountains I went back to 4000 feet and was down to a 20kt headwind.

This was on my semi-regular trip to Nashville to visit my brother. About 360nm. I used to do that trip in a Warrior and I would plan on 110 kts and 11 gph. (it was more like 9-10). Going there, I almost always had to make a fuel stop. (usually KDKX, cool airport) This added about an extra 30 minutes. With a typical 20kt headwind, going from Raleigh to Nashville was typically 4.5 hours from wheels up in Raleigh to the ramp in Nashville.

Now I'm flying mooney 201's and planning the Nashville run this weekend. With the typical 20kt headwind i'm seeing about a 2.5 hour trip. Planning on carrying 50gal fuel and from last weekend I know I can flight plan on 155 TAS and 11 GPH. So even a 40 knot headwind that I would consider strong would keep the trip to around 3 hours with 1.5 hours in the tanks on touchdown.

The difference for me is that on my typical trip - I could consider a 150 or 160 knot airplane to be a good traveling machine. Working on Friday and getting to my destination by 8:30-9PM is doable. Getting there at 10:30-11 makes for a really long day.
 
There are lots of choices to go 150-160kts. It is a sweet spot. The cost to go faster than 160 goes up exponentially and the time saved is marginal for most of us.
 
cirrusmx said:
UNTIL YOU GET A 60 knot headwind. Those true airs peeds are marginally useful at best. The bottom end of a real travelling machine would be at about 170-180 knots and even that I still consider more of joyride than a tool. Even if you do 2.5 hours on a 300 nm trip, take into account going to the airport, setting up the airplane, then parking the plane, renting a car and your time savings door to door will be negligible. Then take into account the huge risk you incur in being low time and weather flying. I would still drive or hire a driver and let him drive while I relax on the highway. Cheaper. This is why piston GA is pretty much dead.
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:confused:
...Don't let the fact you can't afford a Beech Premier jade you into believing GA has zero transportation value. There's several iterations of mission sets where a piston single engine is a substantial time and money saver for the individual that puts a dollar sign to the idea of not getting to one's destination fatigued as hell.

I did it for a year in a warrior II. The block time for me was 4.5 hours. Driving would have been 9-10 hours (and that's solo driving, wearing diapers and not eating on the way) depending on traffic and weather. That's a non-starter for every other weekend. Airline was 8 hours (no direct flight) of which 3 were driving to the nearest class C commercial airport. More expensive than flying the piper per round trip by double and couldn't be price matched for deciding to travel on a whim.

I rather fly for 4.0 in a warrior than drive a car for 10 hours every weekend. No contest, not even close. And I did that right after work. If I had pulled that stunt driving 10 hours right after work for a year, I would be dead somewhere on an East Texas country road today, no question about it. If you need the same level of active attention and control manipulation in cruise flight in a piston aircraft as is normally required while driving in highway traffic, you need a xanax prescription and a rubber helmet, not a faster airplane.

As to headwinds, I flew over west Texas going west all the time, never encountered 60 knots headwind. I had all Sunday to get back. Winds looked stiff? I departed a little later, presto problem solved. I have an IFR rating and no aversion to flying over the Edwards Plateau and TX Hill Country at night. My wx dispatch rate was 100%. Meh.

300NM is a joke. The OP already has too much airplane for that mission. The only mistake he made was not getting a C182 or Dakota instead of the 235. Both 10 knots faster for one less GPH and no gear mx. Even then, he's ahead versus driving, unless they built a direct route concrete road for just him ;)
 
I guess "travel" is relative. I flew to Destin in my 150 knot plane from my home base, and it took 1.5 hrs. That same distance by car is 5.5 hrs. Being conservative, I blew 1 hr driving to my airport and preflighting. I still saved 6 hours round trip over a weekend. That is substantial to me. It may just be me, but flying time is much more relaxing than driving time, so that's another perk.
 
Yeah my wx dispatch reliability is pretty much 100% here. If I REALLY wanted to go somewhere I could always find a way to go, it may not be the quickest but safe is better than quick. Most of the time I just really don't want to go that bad and it turns into "meh, maybe later." The only time I'm hesitant about planning is with a convective outlook.
 
yep. I go from home in central IL to central KS twice a month and only have the weekend to do it. It's a 13 hour drive, no trains, no airline service. There is no other way to make that trip. Same for home to north Texas. Sure, someone from one coast or the other will chime in here and say that's going from the middle of nowhere to outer noplace. That's true, and that is the value of GA. It's the only way to connect lesser-populated areas in a reasonable time. If you live in a big city and only go places that the herd goes, then you are better off riding in a cattle car.
 
Since we've turned philosophical a bit, here's my take on the go by air issue. When the Bonanza hit the market, there were about 400 miles of interstate in the country. Route 66 was the predominant way of getting across much of the country, and a trip from somewhere to somewhere took planning, and time. I would estimate the average block auto speed in the late 40s was about 35-40MPH on a long trip. Direct routes were not always common, and when they were many went though small towns meaning some stop and go.

Along comes the Bonanza, going 160-170MPH, and using just a bit more gas and things were really different. The block speeds for a 300 mile trip were haved by 2/3rds or so and it did about the same fuel economy as a V8 Buick. Heady stuff back then.

FF to today, and in the central and western states now travel block times are 60-70MPH, which includes a few brief stops for gas along the interstate. Cars often get 20+MPG, and many now get in the +30 range, which is almost double the same basic plane of before. The price differential just doesn't make as much sense. Of course, you can get into the 180 and up knot planes, but the cost escalates real quick.

There are few trips that can be done with real efficiency by GA anymore. I use my plane from TX to CO, and also around the state, but in winter I can't do CO all the time unless I want to worry about IR and icing(I don't, I'm too old/wrong plane).
 
In the buyer rep business I get to hear many of the stories and review much of the travel. From a major market like Dallas with both SWA and most all the big carriers for domestic and international, GA benefits aren't as dramatic as to folks in Wichita, Wichita Falls, Little Rock, Tulsa, OKC, and many other mid-small market burgs (perhaps even Peoria) from which non-stop service several times per day is a pipe-dream. For these people the benefits remain viable, especially when life-style is part of the equation.

JHW said:
yep. I go from home in central IL to central KS twice a month and only have the weekend to do it. It's a 13 hour drive, no trains, no airline service. There is no other way to make that trip. Same for home to north Texas. Sure, someone from one coast or the other will chime in here and say that's going from the middle of nowhere to outer noplace. That's true, and that is the value of GA. It's the only way to connect lesser-populated areas in a reasonable time. If you live in a big city and only go places that the herd goes, then you are better off riding in a cattle car.
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Its an 7 hour drive and a 3.5 hour trip from house to work in the plane.

I have encountered a 25kt headwind and that made me relize my airplane is too slow if conditions aren't in my favor.

I need 155-165kts to offset anypotential headwind like what I encountered before.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Its an 7 hour drive and a 3.5 hour trip from house to work in the plane.

I have encountered a 25kt headwind and that made me relize my airplane is too slow if conditions aren't in my favor.

I need 155-165kts to offset anypotential headwind like what I encountered before.
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I had the same epiphany flying back from hilton head. It must have been a 35 knot headwind b/c the cherokee 180 was registering 68 knots ground speed. :mad2:
 
rbridges said:
I had the same epiphany flying back from hilton head. It must have been a 35 knot headwind b/c the cherokee 180 was registering 68 knots ground speed. :mad2:
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Exactly, call me silly but if im only able to fly 100mph I might as well drive. 170 mph is purrrrfect ;)
 
I did Wiscasset, Maine to Hastings, MI with 80kt groundspeeds in my Cherokee the entire way home. (all in US airspace)
 
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