Upgrading to a faster plane

Alexb2000 said:
Not a show stopper as far as I know. Get it inspected as part of the pre-buy.
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Nope, it just costs money to inspect, and remediate if needed. My old plane doesn't have the AD, and I'm glad.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Whats the true speed of a Comanche and useful?
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Standard 250/260 Comanche, the book calls out 1300 lbs but I think most have about 1100-1200 lbs, 155-157 knots before speed mods or new paint job on 14 gph.

If its a duel Rajay turbo than you can expect 175 knots at 11500.' The stc says 199 knots at 20,000' but I have never had it up that high so I don't know how realistic that is. My highest true speed was 187 knots at a DA of 15,000'.

Comanche AD's include:

There is a 1000 hr 10 year gear inspection which costs from nothing if you have help from an A&P or $500-2000 when you replace the push pull rods at the same time (once in a lifetime). Bungees are $28 so some replace them every 3 years other do it every other year.

There can be a 1000 hr prop AD on the original 2 blade hartzel but that can be the same on the 210/182/Bonanzi as well. Figure $2k for that or some just buy a 3 blade prop and are done with it.

The latest AD is a tail horn Ad inspection every 500 hrs or if you replace it with a new one every 1000 hrs. The tail disassemble is 2+ hrs if you are inclined, then the horn die penatrant inspection and reassembly. I have my scheduled for April and expect it to be free, so I will let you know but I suspect worse case could be $400.

Some Comanches have one more AD which is a bendex fuel pump check to see that the nut is tight, takes a moment to do each annual.

From what I read and hear this is not a lot of AD's for a HP/Complex plane. One good thing about Lycoming 540's is that the Jugs seem to last much better than the Conti factory jugs.
 
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12-15 gph? Thousands of dollars in annuals?:(
That's awful.
Sure those suggested planes may fit the stated criteria but if the op will consider for a moment...
Are 4 seats really needed? Can he do with a useful load around 4-500 lb less than stated?
How does 180 kts on 6.5 gph above 10k msl sound?
How about a solo climb rate better than 2000 fpm at sea level and still close to 1000 fpm at 10,000 msl?
I have a Lancair 235/320 and these numbers are what I see. Some of these may be found less than the op's stated price.
ps: It's my first post so please be gentle.
 
FORANE said:
12-15 gph? Thousands of dollars in annuals?:(
That's awful.
Sure those suggested planes may fit the stated criteria but if the op will consider for a moment...
Are 4 seats really needed? Can he do with a useful load around 4-500 lb less than stated?
How does 180 kts on 6.5 gph above 10k msl sound?
How about a solo climb rate better than 2000 fpm at sea level and still close to 1000 fpm at 10,000 msl?
I have a Lancair 235/320 and these numbers are what I see. Some of these may be found less than the op's stated price.
ps: It's my first post so please be gentle.
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Welcome. The performance of the Lancair is not all free as one would seem. It has a nasty accident record, and being amateur built has all the potential issues associated with that.

I wouldn't advise against the exp world, nor the Lancair in particular but consider this: The OP is a 50 hour student, who to date has flown an overpowered, rather sluggish Cherokee which if I'm not mistaken has the rather high drag Hershey bar wing. He specifically asked about the Bonanza, Deb, and Comanche. No mention was made of any EXP plane much less a dragon like the Lancair.

I for one, would not feel good about putting him in any complex EXP high speed plane until he has about 2-300 hours behind a Bo, or Comanche, or something similar.
 
docmirror said:
Welcome. The performance of the Lancair is not all free as one would seem. It has a nasty accident record, and being amateur built has all the potential issues associated with that.

I wouldn't advise against the exp world, nor the Lancair in particular but consider this: The OP is a 50 hour student, who to date has flown an overpowered, rather sluggish Cherokee which if I'm not mistaken has the rather high drag Hershey bar wing. He specifically asked about the Bonanza, Deb, and Comanche. No mention was made of any EXP plane much less a dragon like the Lancair.

I for one, would not feel good about putting him in any complex EXP high speed plane until he has about 2-300 hours behind a Bo, or Comanche, or something similar.
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I will stay with certified planes right now.

I prefer to get to my destination faster, which is my primary goal. And like others have stated 5kts won't matter much. My primary mission is a 350SM trip to work. The drive is 7 hours and the flight is currently 2.5hrs with my Cherokee. I'm trying to get below 2 hours. And the occasional trip where all seats are filled and traveling 800SM. So I figure these planes are my best bet.

I suppose I could go to a 210, if the transition isn't really difficult. But since I'm acclimated to a the low wing I figured I'd stay, but will the 210 fit my mission and wallet?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I will stay with certified planes right now.

I prefer to get to my destination faster, which is my primary goal. And like others have stated 5kts won't matter much. My primary mission is a 350SM trip to work. The drive is 7 hours and the flight is currently 2.5hrs with my Cherokee. I'm trying to get below 2 hours. And the occasional trip where all seats are filled and traveling 800SM. So I figure these planes are my best bet.

I suppose I could go to a 210, if the transition isn't really difficult. But since I'm acclimated to a the low wing I figured I'd stay, but will the 210 fit my mission and wallet?
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Oh brother. You're doing it wrong my man. A 300NM trip @ 2.5hrs 120KTS. You should be able to get 130 out of your 235. I recognize it ain't no Dakota, seeing how it's got the crappy wheel pants and hershey wing, but you're dialing it back way too much or you're grossly out of rig.

For your mission, a short body Mooney is the ticket. But let's get one thing clarified before we look at the relative merits of a short body Mooney. First of all, the distance of your mission is not of consequence wrt retractable gear airplane costs, so you're essentially quibbling about 30 minutes. Second of all, pushing the throttle up on your 235 will shave 15 minutes off that number and still be cheaper than any retractable cost, not to mention your added insurance cost for being low time in the gear swing department.

I'd say re-read your power setting table on the 235, clean up the airframe with some late model wheel pants, and go fly to work on it. Otherwise a Mooney 20 C or E for you at the expense of a cramped cockpit. Other than that you're not getting good value for your money by trying to use a Bo, Deb, Comanche or even 210 for a 300NM hop. IMHO.
 
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Well, my take on this given the mission is that you are not going to see the gains in speed you like for the added cost in maint. I would stick with the 235 which is a fine aircraft, maybe spend some money on speed mods and live with the extra 30-40 min enroute.

I'm not a Cessna 210 expert by far, but they are very capable planes. Somewhat slower than the Bo for the same fuel burn, but unless you're gonna fill the seats on your mission, the Bo would do the job fine, but I think the Cher 235 with some flap and gap seals, maybe a fancy nose fairing might give you a few knots rather than moving up to the complex stuff.
 
Guy, you're gonna need an instrument rating. Stay with the 235 through that. Then you can let your self professed "real money" checkbook from being a safety guy, get you a capable bird. Not that the 235 isn't.

Get it rigged, You can get 132 knots out of it at 8,000. I can see if you're getting 120....it's not quite right.
 
docmirror said:
Well, my take on this given the mission is that you are not going to see the gains in speed you like for the added cost in maint. I would stick with the 235 which is a fine aircraft, maybe spend some money on speed mods and live with the extra 30-40 min enroute.

I'm not a Cessna 210 expert by far, but they are very capable planes. Somewhat slower than the Bo for the same fuel burn, but unless you're gonna fill the seats on your mission, the Bo would do the job fine, but I think the Cher 235 with some flap and gap seals, maybe a fancy nose fairing might give you a few knots rather than moving up to the complex stuff.
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Bingo. :yes:
 
hindsight2020 said:
Oh brother. You're doing it wrong my man. A 300NM trip @ 2.5hrs 120KTS. You should be able to get 130 out of your 235. I recognize it ain't no Dakota, seeing how it's got the crappy wheel pants and hershey wing, but you're dialing it back way too much or you're grossly out of rig.

For your mission, a short body Mooney is the ticket. But let's get one thing clarified before we look at the relative merits of a short body Mooney. First of all, the distance of your mission is not of consequence wrt retractable gear airplane costs, so you're essentially quibbling about 30 minutes. Second of all, pushing the throttle up on your 235 will shave 15 minutes off that number and still be cheaper than any retractable cost, not to mention your added insurance cost for being low time in the gear swing department.

I'd say re-read your power setting table on the 235, clean up the airframe with some late model wheel pants, and go fly to work on it. Otherwise a Mooney 20 C or E for you at the expense of a cramped cockpit. Other than that you're not getting good value for your money by trying to use a Bo, Deb, Comanche or even 210 for a 300NM hop. IMHO.
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Very possible! Im getting 120-125kts on average. It has good pants on it though?

I prefer to switch because my work takes me different regions, 300nms this year.... maybe 600nm next year.

The 30-45minutes it may save me in time is worth it to me. I just want to be safe and not buy a plane that is too much right now. I feel a 30kt increase in speed and retract is within my abilities. I dont think a twin is for me just yet......
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I will stay with certified planes right now.

I prefer to get to my destination faster, which is my primary goal. And like others have stated 5kts won't matter much. My primary mission is a 350SM trip to work. The drive is 7 hours and the flight is currently 2.5hrs with my Cherokee. I'm trying to get below 2 hours. And the occasional trip where all seats are filled and traveling 800SM. So I figure these planes are my best bet.

I suppose I could go to a 210, if the transition isn't really difficult. But since I'm acclimated to a the low wing I figured I'd stay, but will the 210 fit my mission and wallet?
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Unless you get a smokin' deal on a faster plane, I'd keep what you have. If you get a plane that does 150-160 knots in your price range, it will have less useable load and only get you there 30 minutes faster. If you were doing 800-1000+miles, I'd agree that you may want a faster plane. If your plane is relatively squawk free and you're happy with it overall, I wouldn't change.

I'm in the opposite situation as you. I have a plane that does 155 knots, but only carries 2 adults plus luggage or 3 people with nothing. I looked into renting a 182, but it's $185/hr (ouch). If friends want to vacation, they drive separately instead of flying with us. I was using a cherokee 180 that cruised at 105-110 knots. If I had a plane doing 125-130 knots, I don't know if I would have changed.
 
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rbridges said:
Unless you get a smokin' deal on a faster plane, I'd keep what you have. If you get a plane that does 150-160 knots in your price range, it will have less useable load and only get you there 30 minutes faster. If you were doing 800-1000+miles, I'd agree that you may want a faster plane. If your plane is relatively squawk free and you're happy with it overall, I wouldn't change.
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The deb im after is a pretty good deal with 430waas. Im happy, its just slow. And I just want a new plane. 13-14gph for 125kts is not good.....
 
Go here:

http://www.knots2u.net/pa-28-140-150-160-180-235/

then here:

http://www.loprestiaviation.com/pa28-list.htm

Then here:

http://www.laminarflowsystems.com/

and see what you can do with ~$5000. Don't forget, many of these mods will reduce fuel burn OR translate into some speed. Rigging and checking your tach and your prop are also good advice.

The 235 is a true hauler, and easy as snot to maintain. Spend a little on it, and save the upgrade for something like the Lancair, or if you need the dispatch reliability you might need, then a Twin Comanche(PA-30).

<edit, forgot laminar flow>
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
The deb im after is a pretty good deal with 430waas. Im happy, its just slow. And I just want a new plane. 13-14gph for 125kts is not good.....
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I know. In a perfect world, we'd all have 3 planes--a fast one, one for pokin' around the airport and one for utility.
 
tried to ask about that last year..... the response i got was "if you want to make a 235 faster you need to buy a faster plane"....lol
 
hindsight2020 said:
Oh brother. You're doing it wrong my man. A 300NM trip @ 2.5hrs 120KTS. You should be able to get 130 out of your 235. I recognize it ain't no Dakota, seeing how it's got the crappy wheel pants and hershey wing, but you're dialing it back way too much or you're grossly out of rig.

For your mission, a short body Mooney is the ticket. But let's get one thing clarified before we look at the relative merits of a short body Mooney. First of all, the distance of your mission is not of consequence wrt retractable gear airplane costs, so you're essentially quibbling about 30 minutes. Second of all, pushing the throttle up on your 235 will shave 15 minutes off that number and still be cheaper than any retractable cost, not to mention your added insurance cost for being low time in the gear swing department.

I'd say re-read your power setting table on the 235, clean up the airframe with some late model wheel pants, and go fly to work on it. Otherwise a Mooney 20 C or E for you at the expense of a cramped cockpit. Other than that you're not getting good value for your money by trying to use a Bo, Deb, Comanche or even 210 for a 300NM hop. IMHO.
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I disagree, throwing 7,000 bucks at wheel pants is money that could be spent on upgrading to a faster plane. If he flys anywhere with snow, he will want to remove them in the winter and that's 7Gs sitting on a shelf in the hangar. If you think you take a hit on resell with avionics,try speed mods. With avgas between 5 and 7 bucks a gallon, I'm not sure the retract mechanism is going to cost more in MX than it saves in, if it only shaves half an hour off one way, he's saved 40 bucks on that one leg in fuel burn, make that trip 5 times a year round trip and youre at 800 bucks or so on 5 trips alone. I take that many trips in a three month span. Insurance on a 70K hull retract isn't going to be that bad, they make require double digit hours of dual before solo, then a few more before PAX. That pain should only be his first year premium if he flys with any regularity. To me, 162 is a lot nicer than 130, even more so when you're fighting headwinds.

Well, at least that's the reAsonong I came up with when I bought my Bonanza.
 
bartmc said:
I disagree, throwing 7,000 bucks at wheel pants is money that could be spent on upgrading to a faster plane. If he flys anywhere with snow, he will want to remove them in the winter and that's 7Gs sitting on a shelf in the hangar. If you think you take a hit on resell with avionics,try speed mods. With avgas between 5 and 7 bucks a gallon, I'm not sure the retract mechanism is going to cost more in MX than it saves in, if it only shaves half an hour off one way, he's saved 40 bucks on that one leg in fuel burn, make that trip 5 times a year round trip and youre at 800 bucks or so on 5 trips alone. I take that many trips in a three month span. Insurance on a 70K hull retract isn't going to be that bad, they make require double digit hours of dual before solo, then a few more before PAX. That pain should only be his first year premium if he flys with any regularity. To me, 162 is a lot nicer than 130, even more so when you're fighting headwinds.

Well, at least that's the reAsonong I came up with when I bought my Bonanza.
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The trip, weather permitting will be made 24 times a year or 12 round trips.
 
docmirror said:
Welcome. The performance of the Lancair is not all free as one would seem. It has a nasty accident record, and being amateur built has all the potential issues associated with that.

I wouldn't advise against the exp world, nor the Lancair in particular but consider this: The OP is a 50 hour student, who to date has flown an overpowered, rather sluggish Cherokee which if I'm not mistaken has the rather high drag Hershey bar wing. He specifically asked about the Bonanza, Deb, and Comanche. No mention was made of any EXP plane much less a dragon like the Lancair.

I for one, would not feel good about putting him in any complex EXP high speed plane until he has about 2-300 hours behind a Bo, or Comanche, or something similar.
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Thanks for the welcome. Cannot argue with this.

Jhernandez04 said:
I will stay with certified planes right now.

get to my destination faster is my primary goal.

My primary mission is a 350SM trip to work.

And the occasional trip where all seats are filled and traveling 800SM.
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Sounds like me and my missions. Around 1-2% of my total hours I find I would like to have a bigger plane. Those 2 extra seats will cost you in fuel burn, purchase cost, maintenance cost, etc. but it sounds like you have made that decision. Cannot say it is a bad decision. Just thought I would mention something other than a certified (not just the model I fly) as it may fit your mission profile well. Really, defining your mission is important in deciding on what plane will suit your needs and which one you will be happy with in the long term.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
tried to ask about that last year..... the response i got was "if you want to make a 235 faster you need to buy a faster plane"....lol
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Speed mods are money wasted if you ask me. I kept pouring money into my Cherokee 150 and finally realized, it want ever going to be a Bonanza :)
 
You're looking at the wrong numbers. Fuel economy is a relatively small part of the equation. Prepare an annual all-in budget with realistic leg times for the trips you plan to fly, then calculate the total hours/year and fuel $/yr for both planes. Then you'll know.

Jhernandez04 said:
The deb im after is a pretty good deal with 430waas. Im happy, its just slow. And I just want a new plane. 13-14gph for 125kts is not good.....
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wabower said:
You're looking at the wrong numbers. Fuel economy is a relatively small part of the equation. Prepare an annual all-in budget with realistic leg times for the trips you plan to fly, then calculate the total hours/year and fuel $/yr for both planes. Then you'll know.
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I make my decisions based on a % of desired/undesired results.

I buy a low time plane and the % that I will have to rebuild an engine is low (I know anything can happen)

So what im getting at is that aside from a major overhaul my wallet may get lightened a little more than the cherokee lightens it, but tne trade off is worth it. Besides, aren't we basically talking about a 1k annual average vs about a 2k annual (235vsBonanza)?

Im only guessing about a Bo annual, so I cant be certain.
 
I am in similar boat but finishing PPL so not in a rush to buy a plane yet. Flew in a Bonanza liked it. Sat in a Socata TB20 love the design very much like an exotic car with the gull wing doors very nice. Like the Commanders as well but hard to find the high performance 115 model and very expensive.
 
bbchien said:
Guy, you're gonna need an instrument rating. Stay with the 235 through that. Then you can let your self professed "real money" checkbook from being a safety guy, get you a capable bird. Not that the 235 isn't.

Get it rigged, You can get 132 knots out of it at 8,000. I can see if you're getting 120....it's not quite right.
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What the doctor said.

My friend and fellow board member Jay Honeck gets 142 knots out of his Cherokee 235.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
tried to ask about that last year..... the response i got was "if you want to make a 235 faster you need to buy a faster plane"....lol
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The least efficient way to gain speed is to spend a lot of money on speed-mods only to find that most of the pireps were lies and that you gain 5 knots at the most. Then you grow frustrated and try to sell the 235 losing all the money you spent on the mods before you moving up to a Comanche. Once you have the comanche, you wonder why yours is 5 kts slower than the one some guy on the internet told you about. In the quest to speed up the Comanche, you will again spend money on speed-mods only to find out that they dont do what the seller promises......

It's called '10 kts moreitis'.

You will take the insurance hit when upgrading to a complex aircraft no matter how many hours you put on the 235. Going fast and going far is not the mission for the 235. Lifting 4 fat guys with bricks in their briefcases over short distances is what the 235 is good at.
 
Mooney is the most efficient and least expensive to fly of the bunch. 9.5gph and 160kts is a real world number for the M20J
 
DavidWhite said:
What the doctor said.

My friend and fellow board member Jay Honeck gets 142 knots out of his Cherokee 235.
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Pics or it didn't happen. Not sure I've ever seen a speed claim on the internet that I believe, fuel burn either.
 
If OP is dead-set on upgrading to a faster plane I think it'd be hard to go wrong with a nice Bo. The Mooney is most certainly not the plane for his mission.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
The trip, weather permitting will be made 24 times a year or 12 round trips.
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Without an instrument rating, you are not going to come close to doing those trips. My recommendation would be the put your money into the instrument rating, first, then worry about the faster plane. A 125kt plane is still faster than driving which is what you will be doing w/o the rating.
 
alang said:
Without an instrument rating, you are not going to come close to doing those trips. My recommendation would be the put your money into the instrument rating, first, then worry about the faster plane. A 125kt plane is still faster than driving which is what you will be doing w/o the rating.
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AMEN. Or we'll be reading about him. 24 planned trips a year and no IR. Yeah, right.

"safety engineer"

:(
 
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I did 1 trip before I got my IR. 2 weeks later I was in Lincoln working on my instrument rating. I flew my 172 530 hours in the 18 months I owned it and flew to 22 states - I can only think of 1 trip where the IR didn't make life easier, or enable the flight to happen altogether.
 
Now when I bought the mooney.......well if I didn't have an instrument rating I would probably still be stuck in Fargo, ND waiting for summer to come around and the ceilings to lift.
 
alang said:
Without an instrument rating, you are not going to come close to doing those trips. My recommendation would be the put your money into the instrument rating, first, then worry about the faster plane. A 125kt plane is still faster than driving which is what you will be doing w/o the rating.
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My training cost have no effect on the price of the plane I acquire. The 60k cap is the price my boss (wife) set. TrAining is just that... Instrument is happening as soon as possible in the new plane I purchase.

I'm thinking the Bo is the way to go!
 
DavidWhite said:
Now when I bought the mooney.......well if I didn't have an instrument rating I would probably still be stuck in Fargo, ND waiting for summer to come around and the ceilings to lift.
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I was out there last week, ceiling hasn't lifted yet. IR alone didn't cut it this winter either, IR and FIKI is what it would have taken for some of the weeks.
 
Where are you located OP? Let's get you some Bonanza rides before these chuckleheads pimp out your Piper or shoehorn you into a mooney. :)
 
Your budget puts a crimp on your wants. I'd say. Comanche, 210 or early Bo are about the only choices. I started with a slow airplane (172) and worked my way up. Little faster every time. Kept most of them on way up though. I have a fast airplane now and like it very much. Have had the retracts. They really raise the cost of owning. Annual, insurance and maintenance. I prefer a fast welded down gear airplane. My fast airplane is great but still love the stationair.
 
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