Upgrading to a faster plane

Jhernandez04

Jhernandez04

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TheHulk
I'll be doing my checkride within the month (50.1hrs) so im excited about that but I'm going to sell my cherokee 235 and will be searching for a plane that has better efficiency and speed. So this means complex/retract. Im fine with that.

My question is about the Beechcraft 35 aircraft and its v-tail. Are they as dangerous as everyone (locals) acting like? So far none of the naysayers have been owners. I want as close to 170kts as possible with around 1100lbs of useful with a fuel burn less than 15p/h.

So, is it debonair, bonanza or Comanche? And why?

Thank you for your time.
 
BIG jump in the cost to keep compared to your 235.
No matter what you buy, just like real estate depending on location, a complex airplane depends on condition.
Get lots of advice.
Comanche will be the least expensive to buy and that will pay for a lot of fuel and mechanic time..
I would stay away from a Vee tail - old, lots to go wrong, throw over yoke a bad idea who's time never came.
So, that leaves the Deb as your choice against the COmanche.

Have fun.
 
Dr. O said:
BIG jump in the cost to keep compared to your 235.
No matter what you buy, just like real estate depending on location, a complex airplane depends on condition.
Get lots of advice.
Comanche will be the least expensive to buy and that will pay for a lot of fuel and mechanic time..
I would stay away from a Vee tail - old, lots to go wrong, throw over yoke a bad idea who's time never came.
So, that leaves the Deb as your choice against the COmanche.

Have fun.
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Whats the true speed of a Comanche and useful?
 
"V-tail doctor killer"

You could always go the 210 route I suppose. I dunno why you want to get rid of the 235 honestly. They're great airplanes. I mean I'd love to go faster but I love my182RG and wouldn't sell it just to gain a few knots and spend more $$$
 
My V-tail is falling off constantly while in flight. It's been a real nuisance. I can't recommend it to anyone.
 
Z06_Mir said:
"V-tail doctor killer"

You could always go the 210 route I suppose. I dunno why you want to get rid of the 235 honestly. They're great airplanes. I mean I'd love to go faster but I love my182RG and wouldn't sell it just to gain a few knots and spend more $$$
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I prefer to stay low wing, personal preference.


I just want a faster plane, 130kts isnt enough anymore.
 
There is nothing dangerous about the V-35. It is a little quicker and it is more slick than many light singles out there, but it comes down to knowing how it flies and not being an idiot and exceeding Vne. It kills "doctors" when they try to fly it like a more draggy airplane, and exceed the limits of the airframe. It really isn't a high performance airplane by anything other than the FAA's definition. You still climb out with about 100 ft/min climb rate on a hot morning in the mile high city. You still cruise at like 140 kts. It isn't anything earth shattering to fly as long as you don't grossly exceed the performance envelope by being a moron.
 
35 AoA said:
There is nothing dangerous about the V-35. It is a little quicker and it is more slick than many light singles out there, but it comes down to knowing how it flies and not being an idiot and exceeding Vne. It kills "doctors" when they try to fly it like a more draggy airplane, and exceed the limits of the airframe. It really isn't a high performance airplane by anything other than the FAA's definition. You still climb out with about 100 ft/min climb rate on a hot morning in the mile high city. You still cruise at like 140 kts. It isn't anything earth shattering to fly as long as you don't grossly exceed the performance envelope by being a moron.
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140kt? Is that at 55%? I only have info from whattofly and that says 150-170 depending on model.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I want as close to 170kts as possible with around 1100lbs of useful with a fuel burn less than 15p/h. . .
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This is one of the nicest Bellanca Super Vikings on the market right now for $89,000, if 160kts meets your requirements. This one in particular is very nice. Nice ones can be had for less.

.watermarked_cac85582558be0b2e7a78584f046f554.jpg


.watermarked_5d3a6f3f728ec5586446f58cef3dc0ec.jpg
 
My V-tail only falls off a few times per flight, so no prob.

There's a study from more than a decade ago from Av Consumer, or AOPA that compared the safety of the V35 fleet against the equivalent Piper and Cessna. The V35 showed to be safer overall(I'm not going to hunt it down).

For the speed, you'll be looking at the N35 and later. The sweetest in the fleet is S35. Goes around 170-ish on 12-13GPH. It will waggle the tail in moderate turbulence, it will not haul a moose carcass like the 210(at lower speeds). If you want to go higher and cruise around 200 kts you can get a turbo Bonanza, but prepare to open the checkbook.

I have one of the very early light birds, and I like to cruise around 140kts at just under 9GPH depending on load. I can turn the wick up and go 160 plus, but it just wastes gas for me. Most Bonanza owners run their planes hard, and live with the fuel burn.

There are two things that need to be looked at on most all Bonanzas. First, they have all been highly modified in many, many ways. A careful check of the logs, and what's installed in the plane, and a W&B is pretty important. Next, there is pretty serious spar web AD that needs to be complied with carefully. I would spend plenty of time and energy having the carry through carefully inspected. Some have been found with small cracks starting in the webbing near the corners of the fuselage, and remediation is about $4-5k for doubler plates and some other stuff. Once the doubler plates are installed, the AD us no longer a factor. The planes gained a lot of weight over the decades as HP increased. This is no place for a short-cut. So far, no failures have been recorded, but that's due to the careful inspection profile.

The type club can be found at www.bonanza.org.
 
Have you thought about a Mooney? I find that some of the models from the 90s cruise right around 160-170 easy, have modern avionics, and burn about 10-12GPH in cruise depending on model. It's a little more cramped than a bonanza will be, but may be a significant alternate to Comanche. Just a thought.
 
Great info guys, looking to stay around 60k +- a little.

The viking looks great, just out of my range .
 
Jhernandez04 said:
140kt? Is that at 55%? I only have info from whattofly and that says 150-170 depending on model.
Click to expand...

You can get to those speeds in an early model -35, but Vne is not much greater (something like 180-190 IIRC....its been a while). Either way, max range is not anywhere near 2 bills. Maybe so for newer Bo's though, not sure. At 140 indicated with any kind of tailwind, that's a pretty decent traveler though compared to a lot of light singles out there. My main point is that it isn't like it is some rocket ship.....it just doesn't slow down well in a descent.
 
V-tail Bos are hardly dangerous. They became known as the Doctor killer back in the day largely because they were relatively expensive airplanes when new and the folks with deep pockets bought them....problem with that is similar to what you see now with Cirrus airplanes. The folks who make enough to buy them are not the ones who have alot of free time to be proficient in them and consequently they tend to get themselves into situations where a proficient pilot might not.

That said, I did my HP/Complex training in a P35 around 50-60 hrs TT...shortly after I got my PPL. It was actually a fairly easy airplane to fly and typical with most Beechraft planes, it was very easy to land. Only challenge I had at 50 hrs was trying to stay ahead of the airplane while doing instrument training. Compared to a Piper Warrior, the speed in the approach requires you to think much further ahead.....but that was good training.

I'd go for a Bo or Debbie. Personally, I like the look of traditional tail better, but I found that flying the V-tail, I really didn't notice it.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
V-tail Bos are hardly dangerous. They became known as the Doctor killer back in the day largely because they were relatively expensive airplanes when new and the folks with deep pockets bought them....problem with that is similar to what you see now with Cirrus airplanes. The folks who make enough to buy them are not the ones who have alot of free time to be proficient in them and consequently they tend to get themselves into situations where a proficient pilot might not.

That said, I did my HP/Complex training in a P35 around 50-60 hrs TT...shortly after I got my PPL. It was actually a fairly easy airplane to fly and typical with most Beechraft planes, it was very easy to land. Only challenge I had at 50 hrs was trying to stay ahead of the airplane while doing instrument training. Compared to a Piper Warrior, the speed in the approach requires you to think much further ahead.....but that was good training.

I'd go for a Bo or Debbie. Personally, I like the look of traditional tail better, but I found that flying the V-tail, I really didn't notice it.
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There's a Debonaire I'm eyeballing with 430waas that trues 160kt, old interior but new paint and 300smoh.
 
It will only make that speed with a bigger engine than the original 225.

Jhernandez04 said:
There's a Debonaire I'm eyeballing with 430waas that trues 160kt, old interior but new paint and 300smoh.
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The Deb is a few knots slower on the same HP generally, and a few pounds less useful, but it's not a big deal. The Deb(later) has the same AD insp on the spar carry-through. I find the Deb to be 'overpriced' due to it's tail and the old wives tales about the V35, just as we've seen on this forum from time to time.
 
v-tail or straight tail, either is fine. The throwover yoke and fold-down right-side rudder pedals are some of the plane's best features, it makes the right front seat wide open like a car. The only things you need to avoid are E-engines and beech props.
 
That's just a bit over $60k chief!

Looks like a well set up Bo. The engine is getting a little long in the tooth at 1300SMOH. The good news is the cases and crank will prolly go over 2000 hours, but you'll be buying cylinders from time to time.

I can't go more than 4 hours at a time, so the extra fuel load would do me no good unless I want to tanker cheap fuel around. Depends on the corrosion, spar AD, and overall condition.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I've been looking at this 35 bonanza but it's a little over my range.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...ston/1967/Beechcraft/V35+Bonanza/1630809.html
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Might be worth making an offer that you can afford and see if they bite. That does indeed look like a nice airplane. Only thing I don't like about it is the price vs engine time. They are probably trying to recover the money they spent on avionics. If you like it and you are serious, I'd at least try to see if they would accept a lower offer based on the time on the engine.
 
wabower said:
It will only make that speed with a bigger engine than the original 225.
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The E35 I used to own would make close to 160 KTAS if you pushed the power up to 75% and were flying at the highest altitude where 75% was available. FF was up around 13.5 gph (ROP). I normally flight planned 145 KTAS and usually cruised at 145-150 KTAS with FF in the 10-10.5 gph range.
 
Good luck in your search. A couple of tips for you.

Do you really need a new plane? Run sample flight plans of your typical flights and some dream trips too. You'll find that there is less difference than you think. Assuming your current plane is in good condition, you have passed an expensive milestone. Breaking in a new to you plane, is expensive.

Keep in mind that once you leave the realitive simplicity of the 172, 182 and Cherokee world, you are looking at specialized maintenance. Finding someone who is current in your type of plane will be a must. It may even factor into your purchasing decision.

Type clubs and the internet can be your friend. One point is don't ask if their plane (i.e. Bonanza) if it's a better plane than another. Everyone is loyal to their brand. It's worth every penny to join for a year if your thinking of purchasing.

Beg, borrow or steal a ride in each type you're looking at. There's a reason why there are different planes. Since you won't find many or any for rent, most type clubs have some kind of fly along program for potentional owners. Better yet, try to take your spouse or SO along, if you value their input. Some planes are great in front and others are better in back.

Ignore small differences. 5 kts won't make a bit of difference in the long run. All 300hp motors will burn the same amount of gas.

For Beechcraft Bonanza's www.beechtalk.com www.bonanza.org

For Mooney's www.mooneyspace.com www.mooneypilots.com

For Piper Comanche's www.comanchepilot.com

For Socata TB20/21 www.socata.org

For Cirrus www.cirruspilots.org
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
I'll be doing my checkride within the month (50.1hrs) so im excited about that but I'm going to sell my cherokee 235 and will be searching for a plane that has better efficiency and speed. So this means complex/retract. Im fine with that.

My question is about the Beechcraft 35 aircraft and its v-tail. Are they as dangerous as everyone (locals) acting like? So far none of the naysayers have been owners. I want as close to 170kts as possible with around 1100lbs of useful with a fuel burn less than 15p/h.

So, is it debonair, bonanza or Comanche? And why?

Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...

I hope you mean 15g/h, otherwise, we're getting into micro plane territory.

The S-35 Bonanza with a turbo normalizing kit is going to be the best bang for the buck and speed you're going to get without going to a considerably more expensive Mooney. You'll be able to take it to altitude and do 180TAS for your 15-16gph. The Debonair is a Bonanza for *******.:D:rolleyes: There are however the E & F 33C models that are aerobatic, these are a prize if you can find a good one, but be prepared to pay $200k+ for it. The later model 33s don't have the spar AD. There are also the 36s and you get the back door.

Too bad Mooney didn't hang a 260hp IO-470 way back, that would make a good 180kt cruiser. At this point to make traveling plane speed the one that's gonna do the speed for the fuel on the <$100k budget is gonna be the 35 Bo with a turbo.
 
I spent the morning at the NTSB training center for a wings seminar. In addition to the reconstructed TWA800 fuselage, one of the exhibits they have for the course is a V-tail that someone managed to pull the tailfeathers off. IT had the cuffs and all ADs complied with, but an abrupt pull-up above Va is all it took for both stabilators to come off. Operate the plane within POH limitations and dont fly into thunderstorms and your risk of structural failure is going to be low. Still, the Debonair and A36 have a structural failure rate that is a fraction of the V-tails.

Comanches have their share of tail issues. A couple of ADs that need to be kept up to date. A sufficiently motivated pilot will be able to pull the wings and or the tail off a Comanche as well.

Make sure you fly a Bonanza left seat before you committ. Just spent the afternoon boring some holes in the sky in mine. Plane flies like a dream, light control forces, well coordinated, fast, carries a good load (tip-tanks), super easy to land. The ergonomics and sight-lines in the cockpit are however atrocious. Can't see the gear selector, can't see the gear lights, can't see the flap handle, have to crane my neck over to see the fuel selector, can't see the AP annunciator etc. etc. Some stuff just takes getting used to, others potentially contribute to the spotty safety record of the type.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I'll be doing my checkride within the month (50.1hrs) so im excited about that but I'm going to sell my cherokee 235 and will be searching for a plane that has better efficiency and speed. So this means complex/retract. Im fine with that.

My question is about the Beechcraft 35 aircraft and its v-tail. Are they as dangerous as everyone (locals) acting like? So far none of the naysayers have been owners. I want as close to 170kts as possible with around 1100lbs of useful with a fuel burn less than 15p/h.

So, is it debonair, bonanza or Comanche? And why?

Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...

My 61 N model bonanza trues out around 162 knots, that's the number pretty much everyone agrees on.

Bonanza's can be tail heavy and easily loaded aft of CG, put your fat folks up front. Mine has the 260HP IO-470-N in in it, the IO-520 or if you can find one an STCed IO-550 are more desirable IMHO if you want to spend the money.

S Model's are one of my favorite, how true the book numbers are :dunno: but it's supposed to be "The Fast One" I like the V35's also.
 
weilke said:
The ergonomics and sight-lines in the cockpit are however atrocious. Can't see the gear selector, can't see the gear lights, can't see the flap handle, have to crane my neck over to see the fuel selector, can't see the AP annunciator etc. etc. Some stuff just takes getting used to, others potentially contribute to the spotty safety record of the type.
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Good point about the older Beeches...I remember my early days of complez training in the Bo....I kept pulling back the prop thinking I was leaning the mixture.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Good point about the older Beeches...I remember my early days of complez training in the Bo....I kept pulling back the prop thinking I was leaning the mixture.
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Took them until 84 to figure out that it was not a case of the world being wrong and them being right but rather the other way around.
 
weilke said:
Took them until 84 to figure out that it was not a case of the world being wrong and them being right but rather the other way around.
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doesn't matter. It's a plane you own not one that you rent. It'll take about 30 minutes for whichever flavor you get to become your new normal.
 
JHW said:
doesn't matter. It's a plane you own not one that you rent. It'll take about 30 minutes for whichever flavor you get to become your new normal.
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My prop is exactly where my mixture was in the cherokee, non issue. The only thing I really dislike about the arrangement is that stupid flap switch with the safety slide in it. I much preferred the Johnson bar in my Cherokee over fighting with that switch.
 
back to cost. make sure you can afford the cost of the plane and maybe an additional 20% or so. things come up, including major squawks. you don't want your plane grounded b/c you can't afford a repair. just don't let the new plane have you so stretched that you can't absorb an issue.
 
bartmc said:
My prop is exactly where my mixture was in the cherokee, non issue. The only thing I really dislike about the arrangement is that stupid flap switch with the safety slide in it. I much preferred the Johnson bar in my Cherokee over fighting with that switch.
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just a tip, take it or leave it. You might want to return the flap switch to the neutral "middle" position after raising the flaps. That way if you were to get an intermittent "up" microswitch the motor will not be trying to drive the flaps up into the bumpers.
 
JHW said:
just a tip, take it or leave it. You might want to return the flap switch to the neutral "middle" position after raising the flaps. That way if you were to get an intermittent "up" microswitch the motor will not be trying to drive the flaps up into the bumpers.
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I do.
 
Pretty sure all the 33s are covered by the spar AD. The only one's that aren't are the very early model 35-G35. These are the light weight models with no spar issues(except the early 35s which had a steel trellis carry-through, limited to 2550#).

95-04-03 BEECH AIRCRAFT CORPORATION: Amendment 39-9155; Docket No. 94-CE- 12-AD. Supersedes AD 92-08-07, Amendment 39-8218.

Applicability: The following model and serial number airplanes, certificated in any category:

Models Serial Numbers
35-33, 35-A33, 35-B33,
35-C33, E33, F33, and G33 CD-1 through CD-1304
35-C33A, E33A, and F33A CE-1 through CE-1192
E33C and F33C CJ-1 through CJ-179
H35, J35, K35, M35
N35, P35, S35, V35,
V35A, and V35B D-4866 through D-10403
36 and A36 E-1 through E-2397
A36TC and B36TC EA-1 through EA-471
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nice looking Deb with the three bladed prop.
 
Maybe, maybe not. Old Bo's (and some others as well) are just strange.

JHW said:
doesn't matter. It's a plane you own not one that you rent. It'll take about 30 minutes for whichever flavor you get to become your new normal.
Click to expand...
 
docmirror said:
Pretty sure all the 33s are covered by the spar AD. The only one's that aren't are the very early model 35-G35. These are the light weight models with no spar issues(except the early 35s which had a steel trellis carry-through, limited to 2550#).

95-04-03 BEECH AIRCRAFT CORPORATION: Amendment 39-9155; Docket No. 94-CE- 12-AD. Supersedes AD 92-08-07, Amendment 39-8218.

Applicability: The following model and serial number airplanes, certificated in any category:

Models Serial Numbers
35-33, 35-A33, 35-B33,
35-C33, E33, F33, and G33 CD-1 through CD-1304
35-C33A, E33A, and F33A CE-1 through CE-1192
E33C and F33C CJ-1 through CJ-179
H35, J35, K35, M35
N35, P35, S35, V35,
V35A, and V35B D-4866 through D-10403
36 and A36 E-1 through E-2397
A36TC and B36TC EA-1 through EA-471
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nice looking Deb with the three bladed prop.
Click to expand...

Not a show stopper as far as I know. Get it inspected as part of the pre-buy.
 
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