Upgrading to a faster plane

I tried it. Once the word 'Wayne' was out of my mouth - here's the TSA guy with the anal probe. Never -- again...
 
;) I'm no fan-boy for the carriers, but when I can walk out of the house at 0830 with a 1212 tee time in PSP, you can bet that no avgas will be bought or sold for that trip. About 5 years ago a friend owed my some trade-out time in his Citation 650 on an interchange deal, but even that didn't work because I was staying for a month.

A few of us who travel together have discussed buying a 20-25 hour frac card, but have pretty much decided we don't really want to go that bad.

weilke said:
But what the hell would you know, you have only flown anything from a Champ to a G5 :rofl: .
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Was it the like the one they use at the sale barn?

docmirror said:
I tried it. Once the word 'Wayne' was out of my mouth - here's the TSA guy with the anal probe. Never -- again...
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Last trip I did was to Gulf Shores, AL and it was a last minute, "hey lets go."

Well, the last minute "hey lets go" on the airlines today would run me $824 per person, and I have to leave at 6:00am. So I've got to be at the airport at like 4:30am, which means I gotta get up at 3:30am.

I went with my Mom, so we split the cost of fuel ~ around $700 total, and I didn't have to get up at 3:30am to get Pensacola. I still have to mess with getting a rental car to Gulf Shores. I can get up 4 hours later, and still get to my destination earlier. So how is the airlines better for me departing GRR again? I'm failing to see it.
 
EdFred said:
So how is the airlines better for me departing GRR again? I'm failing to see it.
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Your mom may have explosives hidden in her shoes. Unless you've had one of the TSA agents do one of their thorough and completely fool proof inspections on them, you run the risk of a mid-air explosion.
 
EdFred said:
I can get up 4 hours later, and still get to my destination earlier. So how is the airlines better for me departing GRR again? I'm failing to see it.
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The key is not living at a carrier hub. In Denver, it's hard to justify GA when flying to somewhere with nonstop service (which is a LOT of places from Denver).

But if you live somewhere other than the 37 Class Bravo airports (which is more than half the US population, the situation changes.

There are 19,000 airports in the US, 5100 public airports, 500 with airline service. Do the math.
 
PilotAlan said:
The key is not living at a carrier hub. In Denver, it's hard to justify GA when flying to somewhere with nonstop service (which is a LOT of places from Denver).

But if you live somewhere other than the 37 Class Bravo airports (which is more than half the US population, the situation changes.

There are 19,000 airports in the US, 5100 public airports, 500 with airline service. Do the math.
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Exactly. If Wayne lived in San Angelo, or San Antonio I guarantee he's not getting up at 8am to make a noon tee time in Palm Springs with the airlines.
 
EdFred said:
Exactly. If Wayne lived in San Angelo, or San Antonio I guarantee he's not getting up at 8am to make a noon tee time in Palm Springs with the airlines.
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Or Booker, TX, with a 1.5hr drive to Liberal KS, the nearest carrier airport, with turboprop service to Denver at 0500, 1305 (and that flight has a stopover via Dodge City), and 1700.
If you're going to Tampa, the turboprop gets to Denver 3.5hrs before the departure to Tampa.

So, drive 1.5hrs to LBL, get there 1hr before departure, fly 1.5hr to Denver, layover 3.5hr, 3.5hr to Tampa. That's 11 hours total.

9.5hrs in a Cherokee. 7.25 in a Bonanza. And that's about as far as you can get from Booker and still be in the lower US.

Change it to St Louis, and it's about 9hrs by airlines, 4.25 by Cherokee, 3.5 by Bonanza. That looks pretty competitive to me.

(I bought my Mom a United Club membership for those long layovers in Denver. )
 
Going westbound makes the numbers work because of the two-hour time zone gain. Dang sure couldn't do it coming home.
EdFred said:
Exactly. If Wayne lived in San Angelo, or San Antonio I guarantee he's not getting up at 8am to make a noon tee time in Palm Springs with the airlines.
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PilotAlan said:
The key is not living at a carrier hub. In Denver, it's hard to justify GA when flying to somewhere with nonstop service (which is a LOT of places from Denver).
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Exactly. I always wondered how people could justify owning an airplane to compete with the airlines but I have lived in the Denver area for many years. The problem is multiplied by the fact that you can't reliably go west unless you have a pretty capable airplane.
 
I would get the Bonanza because of the fully enclosed landing gear. The Piper solution is a halfassed, dragtastic design. :)
 
And about as good an illustration of why most pax will opt for the airlines every time. I would.

PilotAlan said:
Or Booker, TX, with a 1.5hr drive to Liberal KS, the nearest carrier airport, with turboprop service to Denver at 0500, 1305 (and that flight has a stopover via Dodge City), and 1700.
If you're going to Tampa, the turboprop gets to Denver 3.5hrs before the departure to Tampa.

So, drive 1.5hrs to LBL, get there 1hr before departure, fly 1.5hr to Denver, layover 3.5hr, 3.5hr to Tampa. That's 11 hours total.

9.5hrs in a Cherokee. 7.25 in a Bonanza. And that's about as far as you can get from Booker and still be in the lower US.

Change it to St Louis, and it's about 9hrs by airlines, 4.25 by Cherokee, 3.5 by Bonanza. That looks pretty competitive to me.

(I bought my Mom a United Club membership for those long layovers in Denver. )
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wabower said:
And about as good an illustration of why most pax will opt for the airlines every time. I would.
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You would do an airline flight to STL for 9hrs rather than a Bonanza at 3.5?
 
Everskyward said:
Exactly. I always wondered how people could justify owning an airplane to compete with the airlines but I have lived in the Denver area for many years. The problem is multiplied by the fact that you can't reliably go west unless you have a pretty capable airplane.
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Keep in mind the stipulation "to an airport with nonstop service".

If you're going somewhere without airline service, or with very limited connection service, the situation changes rapidly
 
PilotAlan said:
Keep in mind the stipulation "to an airport with nonstop service".

If you're going somewhere without airline service, or with very limited connection service, the situation changes rapidly
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Everywhere I have reason to go is a reasonably big city with nonstop service from Denver.
 
Everskyward said:
Everywhere I have reason to go is a reasonably big city with nonstop service from Denver.
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True, but as has been pointed out the value of GA will vary greatly depending on where you live. For me living in a sleepy Class C spoke city (ORF) just about every destination that my family might want to go requires at least 1 connection which which makes most anything this side of the Mississipi considerably quicker to reach by GA than by 121, and as long as it is a family of 4, it is often at least break even on the price if not cheaper. The only thing we can't beat is the dispatch reliability of the airlines from a weather standpoint.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but as has been pointed out the value of GA will vary greatly depending on where you live.
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Right, I wasn't disputing that. It just happens that I live in a hub city, and my travel needs happen to be to big cities. I also travel alone 99.9% of the time unless it's for work so there's no such thing as splitting costs if I were to take a small airplane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but as has been pointed out the value of GA will vary greatly depending on where you live. For me living in a sleepy Class C spoke city (ORF) just about every destination that my family might want to go requires at least 1 connection which which makes most anything this side of the Mississipi considerably quicker to reach by GA than by 121, and as long as it is a family of 4, it is often at least break even on the price if not cheaper. The only thing we can't beat is the dispatch reliability of the airlines from a weather standpoint.
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same here. ATL is 90 minutes to the north. Add 1-2 hrs for luggage and security, it easily adds 3 hrs before the plane moves. If something is within 6-800 miles, my plane will beat it or be very close. Plus I can land at a smaller airport much closer to my destination.

but as has been stated, big city to big city, commercial wins hands down most of the time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but as has been pointed out the value of GA will vary greatly depending on where you live. For me living in a sleepy Class C spoke city (ORF) just about every destination that my family might want to go requires at least 1 connection which which makes most anything this side of the Mississipi considerably quicker to reach by GA than by 121, and as long as it is a family of 4, it is often at least break even on the price if not cheaper. The only thing we can't beat is the dispatch reliability of the airlines from a weather standpoint.
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And comfort, noise level, ability to have a soft drink while onboard with the knowledge you can pee if necessary, packing whatever you want, taking your golf clubs, etc. Other than that, its about the same.
 
wabower said:
And comfort, noise level, ability to have a soft drink while onboard with the knowledge you can pee if necessary, packing whatever you want, taking your golf clubs, etc. Other than that, its about the same.
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That is certainly relative.....while we understand that you have become old and fussy, most of us that fly GA and our families have discovered that we can have our own drink and snack service, carry comparable amounts of luggage (without having to worry about an over 50lb bag fee), and still make potty breaks (I can fly ORF to CHA with a potty stop for the girls and still be faster door to door than Delta). And I haven't seen too many people raving about how comfortable airline seats were unless you are in First/Business class.

It isn't for everyone....but the world of GA isn't as ghetto and gloomy as you like to make it out to be.
 
7 hours (even in a bonanza) is a long time. I'd split up a 7 hour trip into 2 days (Which is, exactly what Im going to do in a few weeks) I like being able to set my own schedule. In theory, the Mooney is a fast as the airlines to SNA (my destination) but throw in 20 knot headwinds for going west and it starts to get slower. It's still cheaper though (if you only factor in gas - which I do for the sake of justifying it)
 
DavidWhite said:
7 hours (even in a bonanza) is a long time. I'd split up a 7 hour trip into 2 days (Which is, exactly what Im going to do in a few weeks) I like being able to set my own schedule. In theory, the Mooney is a fast as the airlines to SNA (my destination) but throw in 20 knot headwinds for going west and it starts to get slower. It's still cheaper though (if you only factor in gas - which I do for the sake of justifying it)
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Dude, split a 7hr flight into 2days? Maybe if there was a female reason to RON I would, but otherwise, that's a half day of flying for me.
 
Why the myopic fixation about door-to-door time difference? Do you always operate under such tight-sphinter time schedules? How many of these hypothetical trips do you fly each year? Don't all of them take part of a day?How much of the trip time are your pax confined to their sumptuous seats compared to the alternative?

You might be able to sell that stuff to somebody that hasn't been doing it for a while, just don't expect those who know better to believe it.



Fearless Tower said:
That is certainly relative.....while we understand that you have become old and fussy, most of us that fly GA and our families have discovered that we can have our own drink and snack service, carry comparable amounts of luggage (without having to worry about an over 50lb bag fee), and still make potty breaks (I can fly ORF to CHA with a potty stop for the girls and still be faster door to door than Delta). And I haven't seen too many people raving about how comfortable airline seats were unless you are in First/Business class.

It isn't for everyone....but the world of GA isn't as ghetto and gloomy as you like to make it out to be.
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Henning said:
Boy didn't get enough beatings growing up, he needs to toughen up his ass.:lol:
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I did 10 in a 172 once. I just get tired flying for a really long time and I can take off after lunch and land right around dinner time in ABQ headed west. I plan my flights around meals.
 
I did New Braunfels to Prescott one day, and New Braunfels to Lakeland one day (with 20 knot headwinds to boot) I just like flying shorter legs. If I had someone to fly with me and keep me from going to sleep it'd be different, but I don't. The 172 wasn't very comfortable but sitting in the Mooney is just so comfortable.....and the engine droning along with some nice music going in the back.........*snorrrrrre* now maybe a weather system or something that actually involves doing pilot stuff would be different, but sucking oxygen at 16k with the autopilot on is pretty boring.
 
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My Travelair was so comfy I'd fly from California to St.Louis and be in shape to party when I got there.
 
I just really enjoy flying it and I get too relaxed and get drowsy. I could fly it 10+ hours because it is so comfortable.
 
DavidWhite said:
I just really enjoy flying it and I get too relaxed and get drowsy. I could fly it 10+ hours because it is so comfortable.
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I remember heading east towards Palm Springs and ATC calls me "traffic 12 o'clock 5 miles opposite direction your altitude." I look and see him "contact traffic" and set up to pass him very close port to port since he's 1000' off altitude in his Mooney and I'd like the experience to be a bit shocking. I look over and the dude is fast asleep. I called ATC "You may wanna send someone to intercept that guy and wake him up or they'll be fishing him out of the ocean."
 
wabower said:
Why the myopic fixation about door-to-door time difference? Do you always operate under such tight-sphinter time schedules? How many of these hypothetical trips do you fly each year? Don't all of them take part of a day?How much of the trip time are your pax confined to their sumptuous seats compared to the alternative?

You might be able to sell that stuff to somebody that hasn't been doing it for a while, just don't expect those who know better to believe it.
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Because I don't want to get up at 3:30am when I can get up at 7:30am and still be there before I would with the 121ers. I understand you like getting up at 3:30 to catch that airline flight. I don't. But I also like GA, and don't hold it in such disdain as you.
 
Henning said:
I remember heading east towards Palm Springs and ATC calls me "traffic 12 o'clock 5 miles opposite direction your altitude." I look and see him "contact traffic" and set up to pass him very close port to port since he's 1000' off altitude in his Mooney and I'd like the experience to be a bit shocking. I look over and the dude is fast asleep. I called ATC "You may wanna send someone to intercept that guy and wake him up or they'll be fishing him out of the ocean."
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I don't wanna be that guy. It's so bad I set an alarm on my iPad every hour to wake me up if I fall asleep. It's never actually happened, but I do worry about it.
 
DavidWhite said:
I don't wanna be that guy. It's so bad I set an alarm on my iPad every hour to wake me up if I fall asleep. It's never actually happened, but I do worry about it.
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Turn your autopilot off, helps keep you awake when you actually have to pay attention to what you're doing.
 
And you're forgetting which one of us was folding his tent and trying to sell his airplane.



EdFred said:
Because I don't want to get up at 3:30am when I can get up at 7:30am and still be there before I would with the 121ers. I understand you like getting up at 3:30 to catch that airline flight. I don't. But I also like GA, and don't hold it in such disdain as you.
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