Unairworthy Annual Sign off.

brien23

brien23

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So I signed off the Annual as unairworthy with a list of discrepancies or one, flap track worn out below limits. This was done to have another shop do the repair and I would not have to reinspect the aircraft after the repair was done. Now just about every CFI, DPE and student, and Pilot have no idea what I just did and question if I have to sign the aircraft airworthy after the repair station does the repair and a A&P signs the repair off. I had no idea so many people would be in the dark about a Annual sign off as Unairworthy and what happens next.
 
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You've already signed off the annual. You're job is done. The owner has an unairworthy condition that has to be rectified. Who ever fixes the unairworthy condition has to sign the return to service. Nothing has to be said about the annual. The owner is responsible to see that every unairworthy condition is addressed and signed off by the person qualified to fix the problem and authorized to sign the return to service for the work accomplished.
 
Serious question. And yes I can ask any number of A&P/IA, but for this thread …. In curiosity, in this example, how does the mechanic show the one element needed repair? Is it just separately noted allowing the owner to get a ferry permit, and subsequent sign off? What would the OPs noted DPE or owner look for?
 
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Initial Fix said:
how does the mechanic show the one element needed repair?
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The IA gives the owner a signed list of the discrepancies. And once the discrepancies are corrected that signed list can be discarded if the owner so desires.

43.11(b):
(b) Listing of discrepancies and placards. If the person performing any inspection required by part 91 or 125 or § 135.411(a)(1) of this chapter finds that the aircraft is unairworthy or does not meet the applicable type certificate data, airworthiness directives, or other approved data upon which its airworthiness depends, that persons must give the owner or lessee a signed and dated list of those discrepancies. For those items permitted to be inoperative under § 91.213(d)(2) of this chapter, that person shall place a placard, that meets the aircraft's airworthiness certification regulations, on each inoperative instrument and the cockpit control of each item of inoperative equipment, marking it “Inoperative,” and shall add the items to the signed and dated list of discrepancies given to the owner or lessee.

91.417(b)(3):
(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under § 43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.
 
brien23 said:
So I signed off the Annual as unairworthy with a list of discrepancies or one, flap track worn out below limits. This was done to have another shop do the repair and I would not have to reinspect the aircraft after the repair was done. Now just about every CFI, DPE and student, and Pilot have no idea what I just did and question if I have to sign the aircraft airworthy after the repair station does the repair and a A&P signs the repair off. I had no idea so many people would be in the dark about a Annual sign off as Unairworthy and what happens next.
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Yep. In fact, it doesn't even take another shop. If the discrepency is something that falls in the owner PM (changing a tire or something), the owner-pilot himself can sign it back into airworthyness.
 
brien23 said:
So I signed off the Annual as unairworthy with a list of discrepancies or one, flap track worn out below limits. This was done to have another shop do the repair and I would not have to reinspect the aircraft after the repair was done. Now just about every CFI, DPE and student, and Pilot have no idea what I just did and question if I have to sign the aircraft airworthy after the repair station does the repair and a A&P signs the repair off. I had no idea so many people would be in the dark about a Annual sign off as Unairworthy and what happens next.
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Translation? People are stupider than you think, so you can make money and take power from them.

What does that have to do with the OP’s question other than calling them an idiot? I hope no one else comes to this forum to ask a question. All questions are posed by stupid people…unless you also don’t know the answer, then it’s worthy.
 
I have used the unairworthy sign off several times as part of the process of getting the aircraft airworthy. Examples: 1) I did it at when there was a disagreement from a shop that wanted to perform SB that wasn't mandatory. Got an A&P to sign off discrepancy wasn't required to be performed. 2) I did it when my IA who worked for me was going to be on vacation for two weeks, so had him do the inspection and provide the unairworthy sign off before he left. The other A&P mechanics who weren't IA, finished the maintenance discrepancies. 3) I had an out of town IA perform the inspection in my hangar. He could not complete the maintenance work because of parts and it did not make sense to have him return a week later to do so when parts would be available. So I hired an A&P to handle the discrepancies. The list of discrepancies don't have to kept after the work is performed although any maintenance is recorded in the logbook.
 
John Collins said:
I have used the unairworthy sign off several times as part of the process of getting the aircraft airworthy. Examples: 1) I did it at when there was a disagreement from a shop that wanted to perform SB that wasn't mandatory. Got an A&P to sign off discrepancy wasn't required to be performed.
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Curious if the unairworthy sign off rule applies to EAB condition inspection also. There have been times I have run into A&P's who wanted to perform a variety of things that I did not believe were required (or in a few cases of any benefit whatsoever).
 
Does the annual inspection logbook entry have to enumerate the discrepancies?
 
FORANE said:
Curious if the unairworthy sign off rule applies to EAB condition inspection also. There have been times I have run into A&P's who wanted to perform a variety of things that I did not believe were required (or in a few cases of any benefit whatsoever).
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No, that all comes from Part 43 which doesn't apply to experimentals. An experimental has to be inspected and determiend to be "safe." Anything that prohibits that, determination there's no inspection sign off.
 
Not at all surprising, and has nothing to do with stupidity. Nowhere in PPL or CFI training is maintenance paperwork covered. There is no training, test, or certification for "owner". You learn by experience.
 
FORANE said:
Curious if the unairworthy sign off rule applies to EAB condition inspection also.
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Unfortunately, you're at the whim of the A&P's definition of the "scope and detail" of 43 Appendix D for your condition inspection. Part 43.11(b) is not applicable.

iamtheari said:
Does the annual inspection logbook entry have to enumerate the discrepancies?
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No. There are a few guidance documents out that state the list of discrepancies is not required to be part of the logbook entry. Unfortunately, not all mechanics agree or believe that to the case and will press it must be in the logbook as there are a couple LOIs on the matter.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Translation? People are stupider than you think, so you can make money and take power from them.

What does that have to do with the OP’s question other than calling them an idiot? I hope no one else comes to this forum to ask a question. All questions are posed by stupid people…unless you also don’t know the answer, then it’s worthy.
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It was my fault I assumed people knew, I posted this as others might not know.
 
flyingron said:
No, that all comes from Part 43 which doesn't apply to experimentals. An experimental has to be inspected and determiend to be "safe." Anything that prohibits that, determination there's no inspection sign off.
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exactly. i have run in this many times doing condition inspections. I do a logbook check and see signoffs for an annual inspection stating the normal signoff for an annual, "and find this aircaft airworthy....." that's not a legal condition signoff, the op-limits for the plane states what needs to be in the signoff and it alwas states " i have inspected this aircraft and deturmined it to be in a safe condition for flight" airworthy should never be used in describing an experimental aircraft.
 
Was at a 3 day class on 182's given by Cessna Pilots Association. This topic actually came up. The IA can issue a log book entry that "Annual inspection was completed, discrepancies provided to owner". No mention of airworthiness is needed.
 
WDD said:
The IA can issue a log book entry that "Annual inspection was completed, discrepancies provided to owner". No mention of airworthiness is needed.
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No mention of airworthiness is explicitly required for a failed annual but 43.11 does say the log entry must state the airplane is disapproved for return to service.
A successfully completed annual explicitly requires a statement of airworthiness ("...and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”).
None of this is required for my Ex/AB but part 43, particularly the appendices, is a good reference for condition inspections too.

[ETA: first sentence is incorrect]

Nauga,
and his yearly inspection that is not an annual inspection
 
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Actually, without an indication that the airplane is not airworthy (like the statement that the discrepancy list was provided), the signature on ANY maintenance or inspection is a "return to service" statement.
 
All this lack of pilot unstanding of maintenace is ultimately due to our not teaching it to the young CFIs (who of course are not owners and so have no idea) and then who ultimately do not pass whtat they don't know, on.

Thus the "Perils of Pauline", the new and unwitting owner who has to be educated by the IA....
"What? You mean I've paid you all this money and I'm still not "good to go?"
"What is this thing you call a ferry permit?"
and on it goes....
 
nauga said:
No mention of airworthiness is explicitly required for a failed annual but 43.11 does say the log entry must state the airplane is disapproved for return to service.
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Whoops, this only applies to progressive inspections.

Nauga,
slightly comprehensive
 
(5) Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”
 
nauga said:
Whoops, this only applies to progressive inspections.
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Not necessarily. There's nothing that prevents your inclusion of "airplane is disapproved for return to service" in a non-progressive inspection sign off due to the qualifier in the rule: "or a similarly worded statement." However, terminology is important since if you used "unairworthy" in place of "disapproved" then that would not be correct. Same as mentioned above with the use of "airworthy" for an experimental aircraft as such aircraft could never be "airworthy" by definition. If that all makes sense.

flyingron said:
the signature on ANY maintenance or inspection is a "return to service" statement.
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That only applies to non-inspection work as stated in 43.9(a)(4) and only applies to the "approval for" return to service. The actual "return to service" is accomplished the pilot who accepts the aircraft for flight and in some cases that RTS flight may require a separate logbook entry per Part 91.

brien23 said:
It was my fault I assumed people knew, I posted this as others might not know.
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I think it depends on the person whether they know about these regulatory items then just a general assumption of their knowledge. There are still a number of aircraft owners and pilots that do know about those things to include what you mention. And while I'm a big proponent that regulatory knowledge should play a bigger role in pilot and mechanic certifications, that guidance has always been available and accessible to those who want to learn.
 
brien23 said:
So I signed off the Annual as unairworthy with a list of discrepancies or one, flap track worn out below limits. This was done to have another shop do the repair and I would not have to reinspect the aircraft after the repair was done. Now just about every CFI, DPE and student, and Pilot have no idea what I just did and question if I have to sign the aircraft airworthy after the repair station does the repair and a A&P signs the repair off. I had no idea so many people would be in the dark about a Annual sign off as Unairworthy and what happens next.
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I'm curious as to how / why you chose this verbiage. The FAR gives verbiage, but also allows for 'similar worded statement'.

As an owner, I would not accept your statement that the entire aircraft is 'unairworthy'... only the discrepancies you found are. You are legally saying that they failed the entire Part 43 D inspection?

I think the owner in this case also has a valid point.. the entire aircraft is not unairworthy, only the items you listed.

Or are you just paraphrasing the use of unairworthy and have followed the FAR recommended entry?

Did you use the FAR 43.11 a 5
"“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.” "

The owner never need you to reinspect anything. If an AnP signs off the repair of the discrepancy/unairworthy item then the owner is legal.. you are not in the picture at all after the signoff.
 
pfarber said:
I think the owner in this case also has a valid point.. the entire aircraft is not unairworthy, only the items you listed.
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Airworthiness is binary. It either is, or is not, airworthy. It could be 1 thing or 100 things that make it unairworthy.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Airworthiness is binary. It either is, or is not, airworthy. It could be 1 thing or 100 things that make it unairworthy.
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Then why does the FAA never use the term the way you describe? Un-airworthy items is not the same thing as 'this airplane is un-airworthy ' is it?

I think that un/airworthiness is used way to loosely... but that may just be me.
 
pfarber said:
Then why does the FAA never use the term the way you describe? Un-airworthy items is not the same thing as 'this airplane is un-airworthy ' is it?

I think that un/airworthiness is used way to loosely... but that may just be me.
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With very small exception, an unairworthy item makes the plane unairworthy. There's a litmited exception carved out in 91.213.
 
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