Turn Your Trnasponders Off!

Captain said:
Seriously. If you flew straight at the White House at 300kts at 5,000 feet VFR they would track you. The speed would make you stand out sooner. They would call you. As you approached the ADIZ they would call more and by this point probably launche interceptors. Around 20 miles or so you would be intercepted, identified and shot down if'n you did not turn away.
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At 300kts GS you cover 20 miles in 5 minutes, and the 10 miles from the outside of the ADIZ to that point in half that. Unless the interceptors are already in-flight, or have pilots sitting in the cockpit 24x7 they're not going to intercept you.

I guess they could maintain interceptors over DC 24x7, but that seems somewhat unlikely to me. I also have no idea of they'd actually fire on an aircraft or not. However, if they don't, then I'm not quite sure what the point of having a restricted zone is.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Perhaps he wasn't felony stopped only because they had no ground assets nearby. No such thing as harmless gov meddling. Being OK with it makes you a bad American.
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'Perhaps' he wasn't shot because they didn't have a sniper nearby.

Maybe we should focus on what did happen instead of getting worked up over what 'could' of happened.
 
DavidWhite said:
Israel profiles on El Al flights and it seems to work well for them.

The only risk group Larry would be in as a middle aged white guy would be some white collar crime. Flying from Colorado to Nebraska in an RV10 sure does scream fishy to me. :rolleyes:
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It screams drug transportation to the DEA.

If you screen 10,000 middle eastern people, what is the chance you will find even one terrorist? Purd near zero?

Do you really think you if you searched 10,000 aircraft flying cross country for drugs you would come up dry?

Profiling is profiling.
 
Actually profiling done properly is very effective. Some things are just true. Most of America's murders are done by a small population of young black males. Or as the media calls them 'teenagers.'
redtail said:
I'm not the one ranting or having a pity fest, I'm simply pointing out that profiling is stupid and ineffective, and it seems like certain people are ok with it, as long as it's happening to others.

If you can't handle my point of view, that's your problem, not mine.

see ya.
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rich0 said:
At 300kts GS you cover 20 miles in 5 minutes, and the 10 miles from the outside of the ADIZ to that point in half that. Unless the interceptors are already in-flight, or have pilots sitting in the cockpit 24x7 they're not going to intercept you.

I guess they could maintain interceptors over DC 24x7, but that seems somewhat unlikely to me. I also have no idea of they'd actually fire on an aircraft or not. However, if they don't, then I'm not quite sure what the point of having a restricted zone is.
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The ADIZ / Presidential TFR "intercept" won't be from the air, it'll be from the ground (ADA). Besides, the point is early warning and not a shootdown anyway. If you're identifying an aircraft violation 30 miles out, you can easily get the POTUS to a safe area before it's ever a threat.
 
Captain said:
'Perhaps' he wasn't shot because they didn't have a sniper nearby.

Maybe we should focus on what did happen instead of getting worked up over what 'could' of happened.
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It is what will(has and will continue to) happen when you let the gov't be overlord. The horse has left the barn so nothing is going to change, but accepting part of it as reasonable is ignorant. Somewhere in this thread is a post from AOPA saying they now have a form to track these 'incidents.' You can tell yourself gov is good, isolated incident, mistakes were made, etc all day long doesn't change the reality of felony stops for pilots. I find it funny now that the hammer of big state is falling on upper income old white dudes, you smarties didn't notice the country you built throughout your adulthood eh. Bankrupted us and built a fascist police state thanks guys.
 
Captain said:
I guess I missed it. How have you been inconvienanced? You were forced to watch a ramp rat write down your tail number? What else?
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We aren't inconvenienced because the NSA gathers data on our phone & internet either.

At what point do we say the government has gone too far?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
We aren't inconvenienced because the NSA gathers data on our phone & internet either.

At what point do we say the government has gone too far?
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There is no way on God's green earth you can possibly claim a tail number that you paint in big numbers and broadcast on the radio and in flight plans and weather briefings is personal information. You defeat the purpose of opposing a police state when you go overboard. It allows everyone to write us pilots off as wackos.

Writing down a tail number is exactly like writing a license plate down, and very similar to watching who comes and goes in a public place.
 
This wasn't random neighborhood watch looking out for teenagers. You folks are in denial.
MAKG1 said:
There is no way on God's green earth you can possibly claim a tail number that you paint in big numbers and broadcast on the radio and in flight plans and weather briefings is personal information. You defeat the purpose of opposing a police state when you go overboard. It allows everyone to write us pilots off as wackos.

Writing down a tail number is exactly like writing a license plate down, and very similar to watching who comes and goes in a public place.
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ClimbnSink said:
This wasn't random neighborhood watch looking out for teenagers. You folks are in denial.
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Not in denial, it's just that there are far more important things to get riled up about than DHS profiling. Using ATITPPA on initial call up for one.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Actually profiling done properly is very effective. Some things are just true. Most of America's murders are done by a small population of young black males. Or as the media calls them 'teenagers.'
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Done right profiling can not only work but avoids intruding onto your rights. The cops can watch you in public.

Now to truly be done right we need a whole hell of a lot more than skin color, I'm much more concerned with behavior. Circle my block six times and I wouldn't mind seeing you followed by a cruiser, turn down my monochromatic side street while black and you should be left alone.

Twice have I called in suspicios vehicles on my street, based on behavioral profiling. Our street runs to the local elementary school a block away, so when the white guy driving a rape van showed up and started cruising past the kids going to school I called it in, turns out it was the father of one of the kids seeing her off. He actually thanked the cop for the concern.

And when the four black teenagers in the blacked out POS sedan parked a few houses down and ducked down below the windows then pealed out when I walked by with the dogs and made eye contact I called in their plate number:dunno: never heard back about that one but the car break ins stopped...
 
MAKG1 said:
There is no way on God's green earth you can possibly claim a tail number that you paint in big numbers and broadcast on the radio and in flight plans and weather briefings is personal information. You defeat the purpose of opposing a police state when you go overboard. It allows everyone to write us pilots off as wackos.

Writing down a tail number is exactly like writing a license plate down, and very similar to watching who comes and goes in a public place.
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I've met the OP. Geico really doesn't go in for hyperbole. He may not have explained what happened well, but knowing him, this is a bit more than just "what was the tail number of that plane that just landed"
 
Bored government employees looking for something to do, or something to put on their report sheet of their days activities so that they don't appear to be useless in Obama Land.

-John
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Nope. They scan everyone's carry on bags, not search. They search if they think there is something suspicious, you fit a super secret profile, or if they are bored.

Jim
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I've been searched and my bags emptied and turned inside out several times. There's something about having C4 residue in/on your clothing/bags that gets those pesky TSA agents all excited. :goofy:
 
NoHeat said:
This is not like the detention and search of the Kings. If I understand the story, Geico was not detained, not searched, and nobody pointed a gun at him.

If a federal agency wants to needlessly collect publicly available information, that's nothing new.
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So let's let it get that far eh?

It's like having a kid, when he starts acting out you correct him, you don't sit quite and let him run amuck until he shoots up a school or robs a 7/11, then say "Gee maybe we should have a talk with the boy".

Same deal with gov't, the more you let them get away with the further they will push....and history shows that can turn out poorly
 
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Rigged4Flight said:
I've been searched and my bags emptied and turned inside out several times. There's something about having C4 residue in/on your clothing/bags that gets those pesky TSA agents all excited. :goofy:
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I've wondered about that. So they look for gunpowder residue, what if I was just out shooting? Nothing illegal about that and I show up with no gun or ammo, but have the residue on me. Then what?
 
ChrisK said:
A) You sure someone isn't just messing with Mr Geico? Is this really another case of overreaching / profiling, or is it a case of someone with a grudge? Really impossible to say without that FOIA request response. I look forward to seeing it.

B) To me harassing a line guy is about like harassing the guy who brings you food. The line guy was "out of line" (*kneeslap*) but probably fairly harried and concerned.
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Horse pucky. Telling the line guy to mind his own business is perfectly normal anyplace the society isn't a huge group of busybodies. Nobody cares if a line guy is "harried and concerned". That's why we issue badges to people who can show up and do their jobs themselves. Fueler turned mall cop? Give me a break. Let's get him an honorary uniform and a badge.
 
It's kind of like if a guy parks his car in the street in front of your house and starts watching you, taking pictures, etc. Technically, he's not doing anything wrong. Technically he isn't invading your privacy as he's in a public space and your home/property is in full public view.

But nobody is going to be comfortable with that and most of us would try to find out what he's doing and get him to leave.


Now as to actual searches...
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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I think it's pretty clear that without probably cause these are illegal. The constitution trumps all other laws, regulations, etc and I don't think the 4th amendment could be any more clear. There's nothing like..

*unless deemed necessary to fight terrorism, stop drugs, fight crime, etc.

For me the argument ends right there.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've wondered about that. So they look for gunpowder residue, what if I was just out shooting? Nothing illegal about that and I show up with no gun or ammo, but have the residue on me. Then what?
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Ask them if they want to go to the range the next time you're in town? LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
Horse pucky. Telling the line guy to mind his own business is perfectly normal anyplace the society isn't a huge group of busybodies. Nobody cares if a line guy is "harried and concerned". That's why we issue badges to people who can show up and do their jobs themselves. Fueler turned mall cop? Give me a break. Let's get him an honorary uniform and a badge.
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Oh maybe it is. I wasn't there and I have one hell of a temper. This just feels like one of those situations where I come back a week later and wonder if I could have handled it better, especially if I plan on landing there again. It would all depend on how I perceived the guy's attitude.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've wondered about that. So they look for gunpowder residue, what if I was just out shooting? Nothing illegal about that and I show up with no gun or ammo, but have the residue on me. Then what?
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Last time I flew commercial I passed the swab test and had been out shooting the day before
 
ChrisK said:
Oh maybe it is. I wasn't there and I have one hell of a temper. This just feels like one of those situations where I come back a week later and wonder if I could have handled it better, especially if I plan on landing there again. It would all depend on how I perceived the guy's attitude.
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I don't have much of a temper but I do have a very low BS threshold. ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've wondered about that. So they look for gunpowder residue, what if I was just out shooting? Nothing illegal about that and I show up with no gun or ammo, but have the residue on me. Then what?
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This was about 7 years ago when it happened to me, so current tests might be different. I had been handloading one evening and had residue all over my hands, and went to pack up my laptop in its case for a business trip the next day. When I got to the airport they swabbed my case, triggered a full search, sat in a room with some guys asking questions for about 2 hours, finally managed to catch the next flight after the one I missed and still got business taken care of.

Oddly enough, the trip home didn't key up any suspicion at all, so I thought nothing of it. Two weeks later I'm going out again, same swab test, same alert but this time they remembered me and the two hour question-and-answer session was shortened to about 10 minutes and a lecture to get rid of the offending laptop bag, which I did.

Since then I've been very careful to wash thoroughly after loading ammo, and haven't had any issues with commercial air.
 
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I traveled to a couple pharmaceutical/bio-pharma companies every week for about a year. The TSA special treatment swaps and patdowns got REALLY old after the first or second trip.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've wondered about that. So they look for gunpowder residue, what if I was just out shooting? Nothing illegal about that and I show up with no gun or ammo, but have the residue on me. Then what?
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You get searched, and you go on your way.

I've gotten the enhanced screening on several ferry flights, and in one case my bag tripped the sniffer. They searched it, found nothing, and sent me on my way. Took maybe an extra 10 minutes all told. In all cases I was treated courteously and professionally.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Actually profiling done properly is very effective. Some things are just true. Most of America's murders are done by a small population of young black males. Or as the media calls them 'teenagers.'
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I see your point, just like most of America's mall shootings and school massacres are done by a small population of young white males. Or as the media calls them "troubled kids".
However, the disproportionate amount of racial profiling and harassment (stop & frisk), harrassment in stores, etc, isn't geared towards that element of society.

I shouldn't be stopped and harassed because someone thinks I can't afford that expensive watch that I've just purchased, because I'm black. Nor should I be stopped & frisked while walking to work(or hanging on the corner for that matter, unless there's a curfew in effect)...because most murders are committed by black "teenagers".

Racial profiling is wrong...period. Religious profiling is wrong...period. Assuming someone is up to no-good based on a stereotypical "profile" and nothing else that that person has done...is wrong. IMO
 
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cowman said:
It's kind of like if a guy parks his car in the street in front of your house and starts watching you, taking pictures, etc. Technically, he's not doing anything wrong. Technically he isn't invading your privacy as he's in a public space and your home/property is in full public view.

But nobody is going to be comfortable with that and most of us would try to find out what he's doing and get him to leave.


Now as to actual searches...


I think it's pretty clear that without probably cause these are illegal. The constitution trumps all other laws, regulations, etc and I don't think the 4th amendment could be any more clear. There's nothing like..

*unless deemed necessary to fight terrorism, stop drugs, fight crime, etc.

For me the argument ends right there.
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Thank you.
 
Mall and school shootings are insignificant compared to the murdering 'teenagers' do every day. 'Teenagers' is newspeak for African American youths. You may be an exception, that doesn't disprove reality.
redtail said:
I see your point, just like most of America's mall shootings and school massacres are done by a small population of young white males. Or as the media calls them "troubled kids".
However, the disproportionate amount of racial profiling and harassment (stop & frisk), harrassment in stores, etc, isn't geared towards that element of society.

I shouldn't be stopped and harassed because someone thinks I can't afford that expensive watch that I've just purchased, because I'm black. Nor should I be stopped & frisked while walking to work(or hanging on the corner for that matter, unless there's a curfew in effect)...because most murders are committed by black "teenagers".

Racial profiling is wrong...period. Religious profiling is wrong...period. Assuming someone is up to no-good based on a stereotypical "profile" and nothing else that that person has done...is wrong. IMO
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ClimbnSink said:
Mall and school shootings are insignificant compared to the murdering 'teenagers' do every day. 'Teenagers' is newspeak for African American youths. You may be an exception, that doesn't disprove reality.
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So you wanna compare one crime to another to justify racist profiling and harassment (which the majority of the time, is against innocent people).
Got it:rolleyes:
 
By the way, I am the exception and so are the "teenagers" I've raised (which includes two nephews). Still doesn't make racial profiling/harassment right.
 
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redtail said:
By the way, I am the exception and so are the "teenagers" I've raised. Still doesn't make racial profiling/harassment right.
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I'll be honest with you sir. I struggle every day to not make racist, sexist, homophobic, and overtly judgmental statements. I think as I get older I become more like the honey badger and just say things. Statistics are cruel and apply to whole populations WAY better than they apply to individuals. The true true fact is that a statistic just should never be applied to an individual. The math doesn't work.
 
I left the US over a year ago. While I was boarding the airplane with my family we were stopped in the jetway by USCBP "agents" in paramilitary outfits. They asked (demanded) to know where we were going, why we were going there. Then we had to produce all of the cash were were carrying, my wife's purse was dumped out on the floor and searched.

I get boxes shipped to me from the US with various goods in them for our personal use. Each of these boxes are opened by USBPS and searched. Why? Why are they concerned about boxes leaving the US?

My wife and son went to Guam last month. They were detained for 2 hours by Immigration (she and my son are US permanent residence card holders). The questioning went beyond bizarre and amounted to harassment.


You guys live in a police state, plain and simple. You have allowed this to happen and continue to allow this. You, as American citizens have no one to blame but yourselves.

Instead of being more concerned about the upcoming football season or what the Kardashians are doing why don't you go to the polls and start getting theses despots out of office? Instead you all sit back and are waiting for someone else to do it for you. You b!tch and moan about Congress and how they must all go, but then you say "well my guy is Ok".

As long as Americans continue this apathy expect more and more "security" to take place.
 
ChrisK said:
I'll be honest with you sir. I struggle every day to not make racist, sexist, homophobic, and overtly judgmental statements. I think as I get older I become more like the honey badger and just say things. Statistics are cruel and apply to whole populations WAY better than they apply to individuals. The true true fact is that a statistic just should never be applied to an individual. The math doesn't work.
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And you said that to say what?:dunno:
 
RotorAndWing said:
I left the US over a year ago. While I was boarding the airplane with my family we were stopped in the jetway by USCBP "agents" in paramilitary outfits. They asked (demanded) to know where we were going, why we were going there. Then we had to produce all of the cash were were carrying, my wife's purse was dumped out on the floor and searched.

I get boxes shipped to me from the US with various goods in them for our personal use. Each of these boxes are opened by USBPS and searched. Why? Why are they concerned about boxes leaving the US?

My wife and son went to Guam last month. They were detained for 2 hours by Immigration (she and my son are US permanent residence card holders). The questioning went beyond bizarre and amounted to harassment.


You guys live in a police state, plain and simple. You have allowed this to happen and continue to allow this. You, as American citizens have no one to blame but yourselves.

Instead of being more concerned about the upcoming football season or what the Kardashians are doing why don't you go to the polls and start getting theses despots out of office? Instead you all sit back and are waiting for someone else to do it for you. You b!tch and moan about Congress and how they must all go, but then you say "well my guy is Ok".

As long as Americans continue this apathy expect more and more "security" to take place.
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Well said!
 
ChrisK said:
Statistics are cruel and apply to whole populations WAY better than they apply to individuals.
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ChrisK said:
I agree with your position that profiling is wrong but I admit that I am guilty of it.
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I'm an individual not a statistic. If I (as in me, not my race, religion, or people that share my name), haven't committed a crime or displayed any indication that I'm about to...I should have the right to be judged as an individual and not harassed/profiled. Because when we see profiling in this country, it's usually accompanied with harassment.
 
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