Trio vs TruTrak

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Unit74, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    So you are saying , no ACU2 and no EA100 at all? What about if you go E5, then upgrade to Pro MAX? Will you need them at that point? Or in other words, did Aspen pulled it together and put the functionality INSIDE the display instead of compatibility boxes? If that is the case, I will be seriously considering the E5 at this point. My biggest turn off with the Pro 1000 was the fact it took half the price of the glass in converter boxers to get the advertised functionality. Hence, the bait and switch comment above. ....
     
  2. Lynn Dixon

    Lynn Dixon Pre-Flight

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    Yes, thats pretty much what we are saying. With the E5 you WILL NOT NEED an ACU2 or an EA100 to talk and integrate with a TruTrak. The ACU2 is only needed if you plan to get your aspen E5 talking to older. legacy analog-only equipment or radar altimeter, or if you want an ADF to be displayed on the Aspen.

    Likewise if you have the new Aspen E5, and you want to upgrade to a ProMax later on its as simple as swapping out the little Micro SD memory card on the front, and having your A&P / installer do some paperwork in your logs. The Aspen E5 and the ProMax are the EXACT same hardware, this was confirmed to me by Aspen just a week or so ago, and I asked him multiple times to confirm hah. Yeap, I agree with the older Pro 1000 units from years ago, they did need all sorts of converter boxes and the like. BUT, the E5 / ProMax ship with the ability, out of the box, to talk to other devices using Serial (RS-232) or ARINC 429, which are pretty common now-a-days. I mean, if you have an old-ass Narco you need to work with, you'll probably want an ACU for your E5. lol. Check it out...here are the input / outputs supported bu the E5....right out of the box with no special boxes:


    Thats a good number of in-out data to work with other devices. You can see why its such a really tempting deal...Aspen has really gotten their stuff together on these new units, and making just one bit of hardware that can be sold as an E5 and later upgraded to a ProMax with only swapping an SD-Card is spectacular. I was a bit skeptical at first too, thats why I grilled poor Scott Smith at Aspen, several times, about the E5. All of that functionality will ship, right out of the box as advertised, no wonky adapters, converters, etc needed. Its an incredible value proposition for Aspen AND the customer... you get Aspen glass in your cockpit for a low entry cost, and then you an upgrade with essentially zero downtime, and whenever you and your wallet are ready, so theres no HUGE upfront cost like there was with the older Aspen 1000's. Aspen gets a happy customer on that E5 sale and then they have the chance to sell to you again when you are ready to upgrade. I love it to be honest, its great for both the consumer and the vendor.

    Check out this PDF that shows side by side all of the features you'll get out of the box with each unit...they have their old 1000 on the far left, and then the E5. The nice thing looking at this chart is it shows you all the stuff you can upgrade your E5 to have with just a simple memory card swap:
    https://aspenavionics.com/documents/products/evolution/ASPEN_091_00049_001_Feature_Comparison_FA.pdf

    EDIT: Jesse, please correct me if I am wrong on any of this. Jesse is the expert here as he installs Garmin, Aspen, Trutrak, etc on the daily. I am just a nervous buyer that researches as much as I can because its not often I can ask my "accounts payable" department (Mrs. Dixon) for airplane toys... lol.
     
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  3. simtech

    simtech Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    This has been a very very informative thread!
     
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  4. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    That's my issue as well. I'm already getting stink eye after she saw the money movement in the account to hide the new toys. I need to do it right, the first time. So measure twice and cut once, because I only get one shot at it.
     
  5. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Exactly..

    If you want to upgrade the E5 to whatever, and NEED TO INTERFACE WITH ANY OF THESE...

    • Support for various flight director types for common Rockwell Collins and Honeywell autopilots typically found in cabin class twins, turboprops and turbojets
    • Dual ADF sensor input and bearing pointer display
    • Radio Altitude digital height above ground level display and Decision Height annunciation
    • Heading synchro bootstrap output for third party systems needing analog heading stabilization inputs
    • Additional configurations supporting ARINC 429 air data outputs
    • Optional conventional external OAT probe inputs, providing more installation flexibility and options
    • Improved integration support with the Garmin G500/600 system
    THEN.. you will need the ACU2

    If not, the E5 hardware is ready for the software upgrade..

    Now... I have not asked the question about an external Magnetometer. They do not offer one.

    (EDIT - They do not offer one because it IS INCLUDED! (See later posts!)

    Easy to do with modern equipment, "Drive in a circle" to "compensate" is well known magnetic sensor technology.

    As near as I can tell, it is all "inside the box".

    Cap
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  6. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    You guys are about to give the garmin sycophant lurkers on here a coronary....iow, keep up the good work guys!
    :D
     
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  7. Jesse Saint

    Jesse Saint Pre-takeoff checklist

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    How about this for the Avidyne with Trio or TruTrak guys. I asked Avidyne what the chances are that they could turn VLOC information to GPSS commands. The response was something like, “that’s being developed as a paid option for the next major software release.” That could be a game-changer for people who just must have ILS approach coupling.
     
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  8. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Absolutely!

    Analogue signals are passe, all interfaces from now on will be digital. It's the way it is. ARC 429 will become the "universal" digital data link. There is room in the protocol for lots more information if needed.

    Avidyne will be on board, (they BETTER be on board!! ) I expect that in 3 years all players will be "talking to each other", except Garmin will be all alone out there by themselves. That's the problem with building a wall around your technology.(Or your house) True, it keeps others from getting in, but it also prevents you from getting out...

    Cap
     
  9. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

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    Apple chose closed systems, IBM chose open, we saw how that worked out. Even as a Garmin customer, I welcome the competition. There is a rumor that Garmin is going to raise prices on the G5/GFC500 next year, we’ll see. And then there is Dynon.
     
  10. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Is there any significant difference in installing Dual G5s over the E5? Are we talking a panel-ripping-apart session or what? I'm looking for the "I gotcha" somewhere in the Aspen. And has Aspen released what an upgrade to the Pro will be yet?
     
  11. Jesse Saint

    Jesse Saint Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It sounds like the Aspen may be a little easier than the G5’s because of the need to mount a GAD29 and GMU11 for the G5’s. However, Dynon had a magnetometer inside their D10A from the beginning and it never was adequately accurate, IMHO, in a busy panel environment. The remote magnetometer is by far more accurate. Yes, it’s more work to install, but well worth it.
     
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  12. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    I didnt' see where Aspen even made one.....? :dunno::idea:
     
  13. Jesse Saint

    Jesse Saint Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Aspen has their magnetometer built into the screen, I think.
     
  14. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Jesse-

    Your plane, your money, you flying............ Dollars to doughnuts, G5s or the E5 with the Trutrak?
     
  15. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I have a hard time seeing magnetometer in the panel being acceptable.

    I have put a Garmin GMU11 in the wingtip on a 182, with a lone incandescent nav light bulb being the only neighboring electrical component, and the G5 HSI has performed flawlessly, dead on and way better results than the whiskey compass, while on a current surveyed compass rose.

    The GTN screen is correctly oriented on the ground with zero lag. (without and interfaced compass system the GTN uses GPS track to orient the map and taxing on the ground its easy to see the difference with the GMU11 installed)
     
  16. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ----------------------------------------------------

    I did ask that question...

    According to the dealer here (Sells and installs both Aspen and Garmin) The old Aspen is about 10 hours less time comparing the basic units, plus optional interfaces.. One box to mount as opposed to 3 or 4, same pitot static, 4 power connections (or interconnects) as opposed to one etc. Finding space and making brackets etc. can really soak up time.. He suspects the new Aspen may be a bit quicker with all digital connections, but that all of this can be buried into the challenges in an individual installation.

    I fabricated a bracket to mount a new encoder last year (trying to save tech time) - 3.5 hours.. and yes.... I have the tools...

    FWIW

    Cap
     
  17. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would give it a chance...

    The compensating technology as been improved a lot in the last few years, and the panel location above the yokes is not (or should NOT be) magnetically hostile. All equipments in an aircraft panel SHOULD be "compass safe" that close to the compass. The Cherokee is very good in that regard, some have the compass mounted IN the panel. An internal Magnetometer should work in that area with acceptable accuracy, and without the "lead/lag" and oscillation of the whisky compass to deal with, it should be a marked improvement at least. A properly compensated (adjusted) compass of any kind can be made accurate to the limit of the markings. For the rest you need the "card".

    If you hang a chunk of iron near it, all bets are off.

    That said, I agree completely with Jesse, nothing beats a remote compass, away from everything else. I am not sure it is needed in either case unless the installation presents unusual issues...

    EDIT- found out today that the remote compass IS INCLUDED ! See later posts...

    Be aware that, if you put any LED lights in the wingtip near the remote compass, that can mess it up. Had a boat here with the autopilot compass mounted in the bow. They installed a couple if LED docking lights nearby (replacing incandescents) .. it was ugly...

    Cap
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  18. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

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    Sure it’s not in their combo antenna/oat sensor?

    G5 has internal antenna, Aspen requires external, which can be problematic depending on how difficult it is to remove your headliner and how many antennas you already have, I think there has to be something like 18” clear of others.
     
  19. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    OK... Just got off the phone with Aspen and the following notes on the E5:

    • No ACU/EA100 required with Trutrak. Aspen is working closely with TT on the interoperability and TT has their software with the FAA right now for that.
    • Yes, an external RSM magnetometer is required and included in the price. It mounts on the top of the plane, exterior. It is not internal to the glass.
    • E5 to ProMax- Yes, additional wiring is required. I asked about pre-wiring it for Max and he was like... ehh... You might find gremlins wiring it up and not supplying the software/data signal. Cautioned against it.
    • Heading bug will drive the Trutrak same as an analog style- Magnetic heading, not track heading.
    • Estimated 30 hours installation time for the E5
    • Price- $4995 and no discounting for Sun N Fun or the likes. Probably 2020 before they will start promos on the E5.
    • Promax software Upgrade Cost- $8995-$4995 = $4000 plus the minimal shop time to wire up the rest of the unit. No specific estimate on time (I didn't ask).
    • E5 is shipping this week. They have been making them the last two months waiting on certification. Sarasota and Gulf Coast have bought a ton of them, but they will have enough for all customers who pre-purchased and any backorders will be short term if at all. Customers can buy direct, and there is no advantage to the installing shop e.g., they pay what you pay, same same. Price is MSRP locked for all.
     
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  20. Jesse Saint

    Jesse Saint Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have a Dynon D10A and a Garmin G5 in my plane with an Avidyne IFD540. I wouldn’t change it. If I had a different plane and was going to install the G5’s or the Aspen, it would be the G5’s. Some more experience with Aspen May change that, but that would be my decision today.
     
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  21. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thank you!

    I like every bit of this..

    And the external Magnetometer IS INCLUDED? :) Access is easy to the roof of most Cherokees..

    I have a message in to them to clarify the cabling to and the functions of the roof mount antenna..

    Will report here when I hear back.. :)

    Cap
     
  22. Lynn Dixon

    Lynn Dixon Pre-Flight

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    Pretty much what we have all been saying here :) Except for the extra "wiring" for the E5 to ProMax upgrade. From what I was told, the "extra wiring" is the ACU. The E5 does not come with an ACU in the price (its not even needed by most people), whereas the ProMax DOES include an ACU in the price. The ProMax adds the ability for ADS-b weather and traffic from Lynx, FreeFlight, and Garmin sources, so maybe thats the "extra wiring" they were referring to?

    I reserved my E5 the day Aspen started their pre-orders, and we've confirmed that mine will be here hopefully before Christmas. I was going to head down to the shop today and discuss scheduling the airplane and a few other things to get done (fixing a bad strikefinder, etc), but we had to move that out to this Thursday.
     
  23. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OK... got the call.. :)

    The unit can be installed by your AP /AME.. In Canada it MAY have to be signed off by someone in an AMO (avionics)

    External antenna contains a magnetometer, can be installed anywhere on the top of the fuselage. Stay away from the vent blower in front of the vertical fin if you have one. (Pipers)

    There is an optional antenna that contains an emergency GPS. (!!) If the Aspen looses the navigator data, the Emergency GPS takes over and supplies GPS position data and remembers the flight plan you had up. No nav functions, just position. This function comes in the software update to the Pro, E5 hardware is ready for it. If an update is in your future, order the optional antenna in the beginning if you would like the Emerg GPS function. Cable provided with either version, 35 ft..

    The roof antenna is packed with the stock E5, ready for the upgrade. But it only contains the Magnetometer. Pack it away until you need it for the upgrade to the HSI.

    There is a BOTTOM MOUNT antenna available for difficult installations.. (!!!!)

    TruTrak functions, - mostly up to TT to listen to if they decide.. (they have)

    Heading - from the Navigator (GPS TRACK) or the Remote Compass. (MAG)
    Altitude Bug
    Baro Sync
    Left - Right - Up - Down deviation, - from whatever you select, VOR, ILS, LOC,GS, GPS Displays it, outputs data.. (passes it on) to whatever may listen.

    Whatever is displayed, is output in the data sentence with standard generic flags.

    Installation manual is now on the Website as of yesterday.

    Garmin who???

    Cappy
     
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  24. Lynn Dixon

    Lynn Dixon Pre-Flight

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    Wow.. got to say this is pretty exciting! I wish I had known about the "emergency GPS" antenna. My unit has already shipped supposedly. I'll ask my shop to get a price on what that thing costs, and just go ahead and have it installed. So I am guessing that the optional GPS antenna is JUST a GPS antenna? It probably doesn't have the magnetometer built in to it? If thats the case, you'd need two antennas on the top of the plane...the magnetometer and the emergency GPS. Wonder what the price will be on that thing?

    I fired off an email to TruTrak at about 10am ET this morning asking a lot of questions about their planned integration and software update. I'll relay whatever their answers are once I get them.

    I looked, but I could not find the installation manual for the E5 :-( . It must be available to the dealers only. I would REALLY like to get my hands on that manual so I can start planning out the integrations I want to do. I also couldn't find the Pilot Guide either.
     
  25. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    I hate all you effing clowns.... Seriously. Get your friggin hands outa my checkbook! :incazzato::incazzato::cryin::cryin::rollercoaster::rollercoaster::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::blowingkisses::blowingkisses::blowingkisses::blowingkisses:
     
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  26. Lynn Dixon

    Lynn Dixon Pre-Flight

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  27. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Manual is up...

    Go to …. Products/General Aviation/E5/resources/left side of page.. ALL manuals / pilot guides are there. :)

    The optional antenna is COMBO GPS and Magnetometer. They will trade it.. (your dealer should have been aware of that option... )

    Preferred location is behind the hat shelf 12"minimum. NOT over the pax cabin. There is am overhead speaker there and some headsets can upset compasses. (magnets in the earpieces) It can be mounted inside an aluminum aircraft on a shelf behind the baggage bulkhead.

    The E5 can also be tested and calibrated as a legal approved alt Encoder as well!

    The install manual is a couple hundred pages of light reading… :) But the details are all there..

    Also.. IF you have an OLD ALALOGUE VOR/ ILS, you will need the ACU2 to connect them! But if you have digital radios , its ready...

    Some radios output both..

    Cap ( Ruh Roh !… one pocket is smouldering… )
     
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  28. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ohhh... More...

    The E5 has a SLIP/SKID indicator..

    So if you would like to keep the old AI as a back up, it can go in the TC hole ( STC allows this.. ) Be aware that no AI backup is needed for the A5, but if you upgrade to the Pro, a backup AI is needed. (it's a TSO thingy)

    The "book of words" (install manual) is a great read!

    Cap
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  29. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Be nice if the AC-30 would be authorized for that job.....
     
  30. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    With the E5, is vacuum removal an option if the AI is replaced with an electronic one? If so, what AI would be "legal" with the Aspen MAX? Forward, thinking and all....
     
  31. Cherokee Lover

    Cherokee Lover Filing Flight Plan

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    Can anybody give me a reference for a good shop in middle Georgia or mid-Florida area that has solid experience with installing a TT?

    Looking for one for my Cherokee 180.
     
  32. Jesse Saint

    Jesse Saint Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I do a couple of them a month at X35 in north FL.
     
  33. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Do an internet search of this guy and you will find quit a bit of chatter on his shop. The RV guys are in love with him. :blowingkisses:
     
  34. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    With the E5 no backup AI is needed under the STC. It DOES have an approved T&B under the STC, so you can remove the original T&B and move the original AI to that hole.

    If you upgrade to the Pro, the STC/TSO REQUIRES the AI backup. I expect an approved electric AI would be OK, but bears checking out.

    I'm not sure what a Aspen Max is.. :( Older model? Does not seem to be in the current model lineup...

    Cap
     
  35. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I suspect Jesse Saint has more experience installing TruTrak Autopilots than anybody else. He and his shop have many excellent reviews from his customers..

    Cap
     
  36. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    I am wondering what is actually legal with the back up AI...... like seriously. Is the AC-30 legal or not? Where do I find this info?

    If it is, the Trutrak, Aspen and the AC 30 as a back up sounds Uber sweet....
     
  37. Jesse Saint

    Jesse Saint Pre-takeoff checklist

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    From the E5 manual!
    Back Up Nav Indicator
    For certification reasons a backup navigation indicator is required for at least one type of operation for which the aircraft is certificated. This means that in any installation in an aircraft certified for IFR where the EFD1000 E5 is the only display of navigation information in the cockpit, a backup navigation indicator is required. This will ensure that a failure of the EFD1000 E5 system does not result in a complete loss of all navigation data to the flight crew.
    Thus, for example, an installation that includes a panel mount GPS with an integral LCD display that includes a CDI indicator approved for navigation would not require a backup NAV indicator. However, a GPS with legacy VLOC radio that does not include an integral display with CDI indications approved for navigation will require a backup NAV indicator.
    If there is already a dedicated indicator wired to an existing NAV Receiver or GPS then it can be paralleled to the ACU as shown in Section 9.

    Who knows how many of the current GNS/GTN/IFD’s have the adequate internal Nav Indicator?
     
  38. cappy48

    cappy48 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    Trying to find the AC 30. Perhaps The AeroVonics AV-30 ?

    Cap
     
  39. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    Yup.... that’s what I meant.
     
  40. Unit74

    Unit74 Final Approach

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    I know the GTN has it on the default NAV page. I usually fly with it, not the moving map.