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Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Unit74, Nov 26, 2018.
Damn.... I suspect no way to trick it into working or anything?
The only way is for some external box to read the VLOC and convert it to GPSS commands. The external box would need to be something like an Aspen, G5, Dynon Skyview, etc.
Hopefully the much rumored and talked about translation from VLOC to GPSS will happen with the new Aspens. Pure rumor and speculation at this point, but I have heard discussions that both Aspen and TruTrak have discussed this, and could theoretically make it happen.
But who knows if and/or when it will ever happen. Would be very nice if it did, and would make a TruTrak/Aspen combo much more enticing to folks.
>>But who knows if and/or when it will ever happen. Would be very nice if it did, and would make a TruTrak/Aspen combo much more enticing to folks.
I believe this is in the works The rapidly growing install base of the TT is not escaping the gaze of others.. and the market attractiveness of this combination is not lost on TT and Aspen. With the TruTrak in hand, and when the Aspen announced at $5K US, a lot of pilots (including me!) got interested real fast... GPS approaches are spreading fast and the vor/locs are fading. One pilot emailed me this week and said his TT flew the approach all the way to the runway, handled reconfig changes et all, (pull the flap handle slowly) until he pulled the last of the power and flared on the centerline.
One commented that the market battle lines are being drawn between TT<>Aspen and the GF-500<>G5. Speed control in climbs/descents (on the GF-500) is very desirable to some Cherokee drivers (Turbo Arrows , Lances and Togas) in the higher altitudes and the VOR/ILS capability of the GF-500 is a winner for some who have the budget. If the Aspen <>TT combination covers the VOR/ILS capability.. well.…
My understanding is that the Aspen is capable of understanding the VOR/Loc/GS data, converting it to ARINC 429 Data and sending it on to the TT which doesn't care what it is following as long as it can understand the data. I have not yet confirmed whether it needs an external device to translate this information or not.
Perhaps Jesse can comment on this... ?
Well now that I was all like, G5 and TT is the hot ticket, are you saying the Aspen E5 will do all that for the same price as a dual G5? I'm so confused......
No, the G5 has HSI, the E5 doesn’t, but it can be upgraded for something like 5 AMUs. The Aspen requires a backup AI, dual G5s don’t. Aspen can handle 2 navigation sources, G5 only 1. Aspen has OAT, it can give you TAS.
I’m sure there are many other differences, those are just off the top of my head.
Still much to be determined for sure... more info coming...
My take is that the Dual G5s need another box to install and hook them together and it is time consuming.. (more $$$) TT will be getting full interoperability with the Aspen, Heading bug only with the G5s (Garmin wants you to use only their stuff. Basically, if the TT and Trio can follow the G5s, you don't have to buy their GF-500. )
Rumour is that Aspen may make an HSI option ONLY (software unlock, it's already in there) available for a couple of grand.
Aspen E5 does NOT need a backup AI, the Pro 1000 does. (?) .. Something to do with the TSO..
Aspen can handle 2 Nav sources, two GPSs or a GPS and a VOR/ILS and can send this to the AP, so your AP can fly an ILS.
Actually , on the Aspen E5, there are 10 inputs, 4 outputs.. But I think you can only have 2 used at one time (switchable)
ARINC 429 Inputs 5 Low Speed
ARINC 429 Outputs 1 Low Speed
RS-232 Inputs 5
RS-232 Outputs 3
Aspen has a high res TFT display, G5 has a backlit LCD (do you wear polarized sunglasses?)
Aspen "provides HSI like" function.. (not sure what that is.. )
TAS (on the Aspen) would be useful… N/A on the Garmins..
If you have the dinero, 5 K gets the Aspen upgrade to (wow) everything, including AOA and synthe vision and on and on...
May be an upgrade path later.. not so with the G5. Dual G5s do not have the screen real estate to do this stuff...
First I ever heard of the TT<>G5 being the "hot ticket", the attention (and expectations) in most forums (for whatever that is worth) is heavily toward the Aspen<>TT combination. Gamin shops are pushing the G5s hard however.
I am getting my list together for a call to Aspen in a few weeks to get the word.
Don't quote this, I am trying to wade through this as well. YMMV!
At this time there is no compatibility between the TT and the G5 or Aspen. The G5 read has been developed by Trutrak, which will follow heading bug, baro sync and GPS lateral deviation. TT was waiting on some software from Aspen to do the same they may ask for approval on the software for the G5 only if Aspen doesn’t get their info to then soon.
There has been talk that Aspen May convert VLOC info to GPSS commands down the road. Dynon may do the same as their PFD will be approved much sooner than auto pilot in future models.
HSI-like info on the E5 basically means CDI. It can do HSI, but you have to pay more than $5k to get that feature, that the G5 already has at $5k.
In a year or two we will know what will do what, but for now it’s all pie in the sky.
Would I like to be able to fly VLOC on Tye auto pilot? Sure. Do I need it? No. I have over 1,000 hrs flying auto pilots that can fly GPS and VLOC approaches. I can probably count the number of couples ILS approaches I’ve done on my hands. I have flown hundreds of GPSS fully coupled approaches. When ATC says to expect the ILS, I ask for the RNAV every time, and get it. It’s more dependable and stable in my experience with Garmin, TruTrak and Dynon auto pilots.
Good info from Jesse.
All our airports around here that you would ever be groping for in the clag are RNAV ready, so a VLOC capability is FAR down our list.
For Jesse... Does the G5 come with a magnetometer for the HSI?
I am prepared to install the Aspen later next year, or sooner if my noisy DG packs it in, for a new DG and AI plus whatever else comes with it. (NOT interested in repairing a 25 yr old DG. It's done it's job... )
If the integration with the TT does come early next year, bonus. Not holding my breath. I am quite fine with they talking to each other. The upgrade path of the Aspen far exceeds what the dual G5's could ever think of doing, and these future possibilities make the deal for me, plus that amazing TFT display...
From all that I have heard, at this time, more integration will be (eventually) available with the Aspen than with any Garmin stuff. Aspen would like this to happen, Garmin does NOT want to happen. Big difference.
Will let this play out...
The G5 DG/HSI requires a remote magnetometer, the GMU11.
I'll be happy to give a pirep once I get mine installed. My avionics guy has said my E5 is supposed to be delivered before Christmas. I already have a TruTrak installed in my Cardinal. However, it might be until mid January or later until the shop is able to start work on installing the Aspen E5, and TruTrak is saying it will be first quarter before they have their new software released which has the Aspen / G5 integration in it. "First Quarter" could mean January, or it could mean end of March. heh.
To Jesse's point though, I wonder if TruTrak was waiting on Aspen to get their units/software approved ? The E5 only got its STC last week, so maybe they're (Aspen) able to send their "official" software to TruTrak now that it has the FAA's blessing? I think I might make some phone calls to TruTrak and Aspen to get the details on Monday.
I will say this, Aspen has been MUCH nicer to work with than Garmin. I came really close to saying "fuhgetaboutit" on waiting on the Aspen and just install the G5's but after talking with Garmin and some of the installers, I decided to just hold off for E5 to get released.
One other issue that hasn’t been discussed is if/when the Aspen decodes VLOC into GPSS format, how much will they charge for that. If free, that would be great. However, we know that unlocking HSI versus the stock CDI costs $1,000 or more, I can’t imagine they would develop software like this for free, and possibly a couple AMU’s. At what price would it be worth it for a feature that most would never NEED, but would like to have? As in my previous post, the need for VLOC coupling in the USA is questionable. As I’ve mentioned before, GPSS coupling, on average, will get you as low or lower than VLOC coupling.
How much to purchase? ...And install, … in a typical Cherokee? I suspect in the wingtip?
This is needed for HSI operation, so the HSI is "available" for the Dual G5s at extra cost, not "included" .
Same with the Aspen, you would need the magnetometer installed plus the software unlock.
Sounds like, for either, you gotta REALLY want an HSI... ($$$)
>> I wonder if TruTrak was waiting on Aspen to get their units/software approved ? The E5 only got its STC last week, so maybe they're (Aspen) able to send their "official" software to TruTrak now that it has the FAA's blessing?
I have noticed that, in this process, legally, with FAA and our Transport Canada, some things absolutely HAVE to come before some others...
>>I will say this, Aspen has been MUCH nicer to work with than Garmin. (snip) but after talking with Garmin and some of the installers, I decided to just hold off for E5 to get released.
Same... I have recently had to use Garmin support for something a bit "different". It became apparent that this issue was not on the support (tech?) trouble flow chart. He didn't know where the answer would be. I pressed (HARD) and got to a senior installation engineer, and he had the answer at hand. In about an hour I had my answer and it worked.. Should have been easier...
In discussions with them about G5 integration with other products, I could tell they could not say much and evaded my questions, especially after I indicated that my new TT autopilot had already been installed...
In contrast, Aspen was up front with what they had and hoped to do...
There is a lot of $$$ involved here. (At least for me it's a lot !) Sometimes you just get this feeling....
Lynn... I for one will be following your install closely!
The GMU11 magnetometer is required for the G5 DG, which is also an HSI. The GAD29(b) is required for hsi from an IFR GPS. The GMU11 and GAD29 are included in the dual G5 $5,000 kit. I typically charge $6,500 out the door for the whole system with installation. A flush-mount bracket costs a little extra.
Do we know if the E5 has a magnetometer Jesse? If it does, I am guessing its remote mount.
I am hoping it does, since its' *supposed* to be able to command the TruTrak to steer by mag heading. The reason I ask, I was wondering if the Aspen could send the heading info out to other devices...like my StrikeFinder or my IFD540 (I think it can take a heading input...). Would be something nice to have and get wired up while the Aspen is getting installed.
In addition, the E5 is supposed to have OAT, and it would be nice to send that OAT to the IFD as well. Right now I have an old Davtron clock/OAT gauge in my plane. It's my only source of OAT at the moment, and it doesnt talk to the IFD.
I don’t know. It says it has an ADAHRS, which means it should have heading, but it doesn’t say if that is internal to the display or an external magnetometer. It will be interesting to see how “dumbed down” it is from the 1000. Just the fact that they removed HSI is a very disappointing feature. It almost seems like a little $5,000 bait-and-switch. They focus their website on the upgradability. We’ll have to see how things roll out as these get installed and see how many people feel they need to add features that they were expecting to be included.
Yea.... I am sorta looking at the E5 like a bait and switch or a time share right now. The low intro price is gonna nail you on the back end IF you upgrade. And I suspect many will upgrade because they want new bells and whistles. So you might as well just do a Evo 1000 and suck it up now. ..........Guess I am back to Dual G5 and Trutrak as an ideal set up. Trade off between total cost and functionality gained.
Jesse.... You have been a "saint" explaining this all.
Actually if you have a GTN and a engine monitor with OAT, it will send the information to the GTN, and if you go to screen where you can manually calculate it, everything will be filled in except your airspeed. Garmin was asked why they can’t get the airspeed from the G5 if connected, they said they would look at it. If they did, then they could display TAS on their map just like they display GS.
When I talked with Aspen a few days ago, the guy was saying the ONLY difference between the E5 and the new top-of-the-line Evolution 1000 ProMax was purely software. They are the exact same hardware, the only differences is what features ship enabled. If you are purchasing a ProMax the price includes the ACU if you need to connect to older analog equipment, but you can buy the ACU for the E5 as well. Supposedly the E5 and the ProMax are the same as far as installation goes, with the exception of the ACU.
Not having a true HSI is sort of lame, but since I am not IFR rated yet, I am not sure an HSI gives me much more information than what Aspen has with the CDI overlayed on the DG on the E5. I still can't find a solid list of what the differences are between the E5 "CDI/DG" versus a normal HSI.
This chart gives a great breakdown of the differences between all the new Aspen models: https://aspenavionics.com/documents/products/evolution/ASPEN_091_00049_001_Feature_Comparison_FA.pdf
I guess it depends on your perspective as a customer. Aspens have always sold for around $10k. For someone like me, thats only VFR right now, thats alot of dough to drop on a unit that has features I won't really use right now. So, it keeps me out of that market. HOWEVER, the E5 is a great step for me. I can spend $5k which is in reach, and get the exact same hardware as their 1000 units, and then only have the features I need right now. Once I am ready to start doing IFR, its another really simple upgrade to get my airplane equipped with all those new features. Its honestly just swapping out the SD card thats in the unit and doing some log book entries by the A&P. Have a look at that comparison chart I posted a few paragraphs above. The "basic" E5 has quite a bit of features that a VFR guy like me uses. I'd like to have TAS in that list for the E5, but meh, it's not a biggie. Essentially, the ProMax upgrade (again, just a software change thats done in an hour), adds Air Data, HSI and AOA. You get ADS-B weather and traffic if you also have a source the Aspen can read from, but I'd rather not clutter up my screen with Weather and Traffic since I have that on my IFD and my iPad.
So, for me I see the E5 as an "entry level" way of getting into Aspen's at an affordable price that also offers an easy way to upgrade to more features when I am ready.
I have ZERO Garmin equipment in my airplane, and I like it that way. My IFD540 can accept inputs for OAT, airspeed, etc. so that its utilities menu can automatically use those datapoints when you want to calculate things. the IFD540 can also accept inputs from fuel monitors / engine monitors (Which I don't have right now). I'm hoping my E5 can send the data that it has, to the IFD which would get a big number of the use cases I want done.
That Max upgrade is not just a software update. The whole thing has to go in for a new board and new screen FYI....
That is ONLY if you are upgrading from a previous generation Aspen 1000 model. The Aspen E5 and the ProMax are the exact same hardware. This is what I was told by Aspen just a few days ago. If you buy an E5, and want to upgrade it later on to a ProMax or the ProMax with synthetic vision, its just a software update. Literally all the A&P does is swap out the Micro SD card on the front of the unit, and make some log book entries and paperwork.
The new Aspen E5 and the ProMax's are hardware identical. The only exception is that if you buy the E5 you don't get an ACU in the price, where as if you buy a ProMax you do get an ACU included in the price, but an ACU is only needed if you need to talk with analog equipment. And it can be added to an E5 if you want. The boards, screens, etc for the E5 is exactly the same as the ProMax. They are substantially different than the older Evolution 1000's that are out there today, and upgrading from an Evolution 1000 to an E5/ProMax is a full rip-and-replace of the unit.
This was one of the things I dug deep on Scott Smith from Aspen as few days ago, and he vehmently stated that the E5 and the ProMax are identical in every way except for the enabled software features, and was proud to tout the upgrade process was a software upgrade that would be less than an hour of labor from an A&P.
EDIT: Their Aspen E5 promo video also shows that upgrading to the Pro is simply changing the Micro SD Card:
At about the 0:45 second mark....
This helps a lot...
My research echo's yours Lynn...
I don't see a "bait and switch" at all, I see a "menu", and I like being able to buy what I can afford now and upgrade (oh so easily) later, or never. With the new consistent form factor Aspens, you take your pick and send your cheque.
I fly VFR, night VFR and OTT. I need an IFR capable aircraft. I have an old noisy DG. The optional additional features come after 1 hour or so with an SD card. HSI is nice, but low on the priority list. Already have OAT on my JPI. I have an AOA indicator. Everything I need and want now is in the Aspen E5 "out of the box". The integration with the TruTrak would be nice, but the TT control head works great. I can wait for that or do without.
Everything I need and want is NOT in two G5s. They are good products, owners are happy with them. But the LCD displays are old tech. I wear polarised glasses, I can see a TFT display easily, LCDs are difficult.. The upgrade path is not there and never will be with G5s..
So.. two years from now if I decide to I can go to a full upgrade to a killer IFR suite for 5K? (I like it!)
Aspen and TT are working together to make this happen, Garmin is not. .. and never will until they see the error of their ways, and I am not waiting...
Garmin has been repeatedly trumped (sorry!) by small companies lately, and has assumed a defensive posture, while others are being aggressively innovative. (Like Garmin used to be)
Look at the AP market now. TT and Trio have flipped it upside down. Dynon and Aspen are being looked at by the OEMs. If your new Archer came with a Dynon suite instead of a Garmin suite for 60,000 dollars less, would you consider it?
The times they are a changing...
So what stops those with the updated SD card from copying them and selling it? Is it matched with a security patch to work only with a specific serial number? Seems odd all it takes is an updated SD card...
Totally agree here Cap. the E5 kind of fits the bill for folks like us. I want to install the hardware ONE TIME. If I can get the hardware installed for 5k and it meets 90% of my mission needs, then thats great! It's right in my budget, and it fits my mission that I fly now. Again, I'm day night VFR pilot, IFR coming in the future. I like the fact that I can take my 5k that I have budgeted this year for upgrades, get the hardware and be done with major panel work and downtime. Then, when I am ready to do IFR, and need those features, It's a smaller pill to swallow for the next $5k or whatever the software upgrade costs a few years down the road, and my airplane isn't down and my panel being ripped apart. I totally see that it doesn't fit everyones use cases, but it really does fit mine. I think Aspen got it right with this design.
Now, I DO think they should offer the options in some sort of A-la-carte style. For example, if I wanted just HSI, I can pay a smaller feed to get that. If I wanted JUST air data, again a smaller fee and I can sort of add things as my budget allows (yearly, bi-yearly, etc). It kind of looks like they are just going to over big "packages" of upgrades, which I can see making sense as there is less FAA paperwork and approvals for doing that, instead of onesy-twosy for each feature. I also think that they are kind of missing the chance to REALLY eat Garmin's lunch on the G5 by NOT offering an HSI. If they would just simply add the HSI and it ONLY to the E5, they would dominate the G5 in my opinion.
Well, there's a bunch of ways to make this happen. It's done all the time in aviation, and even other industries. Could be linked to the serial of the unit, or via some "activation key" that is a hash of the units serial, or even that the Micro SD card is ordered from Aspen and the A&P (or customer?) gives them info like tail number, Aspen serial, install date, etc and Aspen builds a config on the SD Card (probably encrypted) and ships that to the shop to do the "install".
I mean think about it, we already do similar when we update our Jepp databases in our Avidynes. The Jepp charts I use on my Cardinal (copied off my thumbdrive) can't be used for my buddies 172. Theres literally hundreds of ways of preventing this sort of piracy, all are pretty easy to accomplish.
If it were me, I would do a public/private encryption where Aspen and the hardware were the only ones that had the keys. Super simple to do, the card couldn't be read (it could, but the data on it would be all encrypted), and would be super robust.
Not stated yet, but I would certainly hope so.. Easily done. I would expect at least an imbedded recognition code..
I would like this also... but I suspect the approvals required for the individual items and the various combinations available might be daunting..
I did hear that Aspen is considering adding JUST the HSI for a "modest" unlock fee. That would relegate the Dual G5s to an "also ran " status... This may be wishful thinking... but.. that would make it a killer combination...
It would if E5 can replace entire 6-pack (without having to keep them around as backups), G5s only replaces AI and DG.
The E5 is going to give you all of the information that would be in your 6 pack. However I don’t think I would pull all my other instruments out. The E5 does allow for you to remove the vacuum system, something I am considering doing when I have my E5 installed.
My question, if you can answer very succinctly is this: What does the E5 offer you that the G5 is not, other than upgradability?
1. Bigger, better, screen with more real-estate for information
2. Promised support for my TruTrak Autopilot (only heard rumors for G5 support). Aspen E5 will indeed offer the a ability to sync baro and heading bugs with my AP.
3. Easy to upgrade later on, no downtime or panel work.
4. Longer warranty, option to extend for 2 more years for ~$700
5. E5 can accept more inputs
6. I am NOT a fan of Garmin. <-- This is sort of a big one for me.
7. I can add full synthetic vision and AOA to the E5 later on.
8. Can add Flight Director
You are not helping me spend money on a G5 set up at all.
HAH! I know what you mean Unit74! I waffled back and forth on the decision myself. I wanted an E5 since the day they were announced (April??). But, I have been waiting a LONG time for Aspen to get it approved, and during that time I came REALLY close to having my shop just use the money I paid for the E5 to install two G5's. Thankfully, about the time I was trying to decide, I got some good news that the E5 was shipping, and that mine would be delivered to my A&P's shop before Christmas. So, I stayed with Aspen for those reasons I mentioned above and a few more.
I have looked at played with the G5's and they just feel...cheap to me for some reason. Like a toy or something. The screens kind of looked washed out in my buddies plane in direct sunlight and they just didn't fit my expectations of quality...but I guess for ~$2500 each, what can you expect? However, I used to belong to a club that had a 182 (before I bought my Cardinal), and it had an Aspen 1000 in it, and I really liked flying behind that 1000. And thats the OLDER style Aspen. I figure if Aspen is making the screen much better, and with better colors, and faster processor, it would honestly "fix" all the things I didn't like about the old Aspen 1000 in the 182 (again, there wasn't really much I disliked in the first place). So, I am a bit biased I guess. Aspen was great to work with for the club, the unit was super nice to fly behind and there was more real estate on the old 1000 than the two G5's in my buddies plane. Again, this is just my own anecdotal, personal experience. I know guys that absolutely LOVE their G5's.
Regardless of which way you go, Either the E5 or the G5, you'll be getting really good equipment that will greatly enhance the cockpit. Even for VFR usage. I am going with Aspen E5 because my Cardinal RG is sort of my "forever plane", that I don't think I will get rid of, not for a long time at least. I want glass in it that I can add to and upgrade later on. Eventually, I'd like to add two more Aspen's beside this one I am getting, but thats on down the road. I can't do that with the G5's.
I am hoping to have my E5 installed soon. Its on its way now to my installer, and I am going down tomorrow to do the planning. I'll be fixing my Strikefinder, and getting some more things done while hes got the panel tore apart for the E5, and we're going to discuss timelines and schedules tomorrow. I'll hopefully have an install date on the calendar this week. I'll be glad to give a PIREP on the E5 when its all said and done.
So with the G5, you need the GMU11 and the GAD28B and that's about it to do what it needs to do. Given that I have a Trutrak upgrade as a foundation for doing the upgrade to begin with, what "boxes" are required to get all this equipment working together on the E5? Last i recalled, it was several $K's just for the interfaces, which would be a deal killer I think.
From what I have been told by both Aspen and Trutrak, there is no other bits of hardware needed to connect the TruTrak to the Aspen E5 and do all the integrations. I think he said it was a simple 2 wire (maybe 3?) connection directly from the Aspen over to the Trutrak and thats it.
BUT... TruTrak hasn't released the firmware for the units yet. Supposedly its imminent and supposed to be out in a couple of months. If you already have a TruTrak you just need to send it in to them to have the firmware on the TruTrak control head upgraded. They will do this at no charge and supposedly a quick turn-around.
I do not have a Trutrak yet but the money is burning a hole in my pocket for it and some "light" glass. So if the Aspen does not require anything, why does the Pro1000 require the EA100 to the tune of $2800 and the ACU2 for another $2800? That is where the bite is at... Hidden costs. $5600 bones in adapters and all you still have is an E5 for $12k
The older Pro1000 is the older generation. The E5 is the new unit they just got released last week or two. The E5 doesnt need the ACU or the other rmodules to talk to digital equipment. The trutrak is a digital autopilot. Now, if you needed the E5 to talk to an old analog autopilot you'd need to buy an ACU.
From everything I have been told by Aspen, Trutrak and my installer there is no hidden costs or gadgets or adapters to buy with the E5. It's literally the E5, a couple of wires and your Trutrak to get the two integrated.
Like Lynn said...
9. The TFT screen, can be seem with polarised glasses, and the viewing angle is greater. The LCD G5s are indeed "washed out" in sunlight..
10. You can upgrade with MATCHING units and work your way to a glass panel, up to three E5s side by each (Oh , if I had the $$$$)
11. RUMOUR ONLY! There is word that Garmin is going to "tighten up" it's proprietary communication code to make it more difficult to interface other equipments. I like the Garmin stuff, I have some of it, their support is OK, but difficult at times.. but going forward with this proprietary attitude.. not so sure about this.. I don't want to knowingly back myself into a corner here in the future. I like options.
Re: # 2 above.
TT have had, with the support of Aspen, the TT<>Aspen combination working on their bench for months.. They also cracked the output data from the G5 and coded the software to understand it. (no help from Garmin)
I am going with the "Co-operative partnership" on this one.
I would expect if one has an issue with their G5 talking to a non Garmin equipment, the customer (me) would be on their own. I cannot reasonably expect Garmin to support this arrangement. I had to beat on them to help me with an interface to a old audio panel! I can however, fully expect TT and Aspen to co-operate and help me with an interface issue if needed.
NO MORE boxes needed..
Two wires only. Its an ARINC 429 low speed data connection.