Training

[Tom-D]

Is there any thing you believe should have been included in your training that wasn't ?

I have a Instrument rating but during the training to get it I spent very little time in actual, thus do not feel comfortable using it.

 

[frfly172]

The way toget comfortable is to start flying some light actual,set your own personal minimums and change them as you get better. Not many instructors due a lot of actual,during training.

 

[FORANE]

Be grateful for the little bit of actual you received; I got zero actual in training.

I felt overly prepared for the private license and inadequately prepared for the instrument license. I really didn't get much in the way of SID's, STARS, zero actual as noted, etc.

Sounds like you need to start flying every flight you do under IFR to gain comfort in the system. Then perhaps some time with a safety pilot or CFII under the hood.

 

[Kritchlow]

The first thing I did after getting my PPL (1985) was to grab my instructor for some additional night flying. It wasn't so much the landings as it was pilotage and finding runways amongst the city lights. On a side note, I got checked out in the schools Warrior at the same time.

There are probably a ton of things at some point that I wish I had more training on, but I can't put my finger on them now.

 

[Henning]

I got great training, am comfortable with my personal abilities in IMC, and keep up on my IPCs, but still don't feel comfortable in most IMC because of what nature builds in those clouds I can't see before I get into.

You are the perfect person to run an experiment with if you're game.

Go do an IFR/IMC training flight is a G-1000 172 with SVT, and tell us where your confidence level is. Try to separate comfort with situational awareness from comfort with procedure.

 

[write-stuff]

After mastering basic attitudes and intercepts and tracking, I think getting instruction in benign IMC is very valuable. Unfortunately, conditions just don't always comply with our needs.

 

[Henning]

After mastering basic attitudes and intercepts and tracking, I think getting instruction in benign IMC is very valuable. Unfortunately, conditions just don't always comply with our needs.

Exactly, here in the southeast, it's rare to have 'benign IMC' that is thick enough to fly in the soup in, just a thin layer. Anything that has some depth and structure to it, has monsters as well that can beat you, or freeze you, out of the sky.

I don't mind popping in and out of tops where I can see the basic structure and state of development of what I'm about to fly through, but solid convective lines, nope, not without onboard live radar, no NEXRAD stuff. I just stay underneath where I can see the bottoms.

West coast IMC is a lot different though, unless it's freezing, the marine layer holds little hazard.

 

[jordane93]

Spins. The first time I did spins was for my spin endorsement for my CFI training. I had a blast doing them!

 

[Graueradler]

PPL should have included a review of radio terminology from the AIM. I don't remember details (about 25 yrs go) but I was exposed to tower instructions that meant something different than normal English usage would imply. Didn't get in trouble but could have.

 

[Unit74]

Spin training/Unusual attitudes.

I think there should be a lot more.

 

[jesse]

Damn near everyone could use some spin training, wish I had access to a good airplane to do it with. Had a student from a different flight school that just passed his private put the 172 into a spin doing a power off stall yesterday. I gave him some time to see what he would do, fired off some verbal commands, and finally stomped the right rudder and pushed the yoke forward myself once we were about 3/4 turn in. Would typically just let it develop but didn't know the guy well and we didn't have much altitude to spare.

After that we climbed way up and I had him do falling leaf stalls for a few thousand feet so he could learn what his feet are for.

 

[Henning]

I got spin training on IIRC my second lesson. My CFI just let me do a power on stall incorrectly and it segued very nicely into 20 minutes of spin and recovery training. I have never worried about a spin since.

 

[bnt83]

Damn near everyone could use some spin training, wish I had access to a good airplane to do it with. Had a student from a different flight school that just passed his private put the 172 into a spin doing a power off stall yesterday. I gave him some time to see what he would do, fired off some verbal commands, and finally stomped the right rudder and pushed the yoke forward myself once we were about 3/4 turn in. Would typically just let it develop but didn't know the guy well and we didn't have much altitude to spare.

After that we climbed way up and I had him do falling leaf stalls for a few thousand feet so he could learn what his feet are for.

That's not a good airplane for it?

I did initial spins in 172P with instructor then self taught in a Cessna 150. That 150 went around n around with just me in it several times a year.

 

[bnt83]

I got spin training on IIRC my second lesson. My CFI just let me do a power on stall incorrectly and it segued very nicely into 20 minutes of spin and recovery training. I have never worried about a spin since.

In what airplane?

 

[Kritchlow]

I didn't think a 172 is approved for intentional spins.

 

[jesse]

That's not a good airplane for it?

I did initial spins in 172P with instructor then self taught in a Cessna 150. That 150 went around n around with just me in it several times a year.

The early 172 models spin pretty well. The new(er) ones really aren't worth a **** for it in comparison. It can be a challenge to keep one in a spin without it wanting to just turn into a spiral and build massive amounts of energy in the process.

A 150 spins great, considerably better than most of the 172 models.

I'm also not a huge fan of spinning airplanes with gyros that can't be caged. I know many people claim its a "myth" that the spins are hard on gyros but I've personally seen three gyro failures occur shortly after spins were done on otherwise perfectly functional gyros. Maybe that was just a coincidence but gyros cost money and breaking **** really hurts the bottom line on rentals.

 

[bnt83]

(7) Model 172M and 172N (Landplane) (17261445, 17261578, 17265685 through 17271034​

except 17270050)​

"This airplane must be operated in compliance with the operating limitations stated​

in the form of placards, markings, and manuals.​

MAXIMUMS​

Normal Category Utility Category​

Maneuvering speed (CAS) 97 knots 97 knots​

Gross weight 2300 lbs. 2000 lbs.​

Flight load factor​

Flaps up +3.8 -1.52 +4.4 -1.76​

Flaps down +3.0 +3.0​

Normal category - No acrobatic maneuvers including spins approved.​

Utility category - Baggage compartment and rear seat must not be occupied.​

NO ACROBATIC MANEUVERS EXCEPT THOSE LISTED BELOW:​

Recommended Recommended​

Maneuver Entry speed Maneuver Entry Speed​

Chandelles 105 knots Spins Slow deceleration​

Lazy eights 105 knots Stalls (except Slow deceleration​

Steep turns 95 knots) whip stalls)​

Altitude loss in stall recovery - 180 feet.​

Abrupt use of the controls prohibited above 97 knots

 

[Henning]

In what airplane?

152..

 

[bnt83]

152..

I thought you had a pilot certificate in a twin without ever flying a single?

 

[jesse]

I didn't think a 172 is approved for intentional spins.

I don't know a lot about the post 2001 ones..but the ones before that can be spun in the utility envelope. They just don't spin very well.

The 172L and before spin pretty well IME. The M and newer not worth a **** in comparison.

I suspect it's because of the wing change they made.

 

[Henning]

The early 172 models spin pretty well. The new(er) ones really aren't worth a **** for it in comparison. It can be a challenge to keep one in a spin without it wanting to just turn into a spiral and build massive amounts of energy in the process.

A 150 spins great, considerably better than most of the 172 models.

I'm also not a huge fan of spinning airplanes with gyros that can't be caged. I know many people claim its a "myth" that the spins are hard on gyros but I've personally seen three gyro failures occur shortly after spins were done on otherwise perfectly functional gyros. Maybe that was just a coincidence but gyros cost money and breaking **** really hurts the bottom line on rentals.

The best solution is an AHRS.

 

[bnt83]

I don't know a lot about the post 2001 ones..but the ones before that can be spun in the utility envelope. They just don't spin very well.

The 172L and before spin pretty well IME. The M and newer not worth a **** in comparison.

I suspect it's because of the wing change they made.

Look at the size if the fairing in front of the vertical stabilizer. It changed significantly around those model years.

 

[Henning]

I thought you had a pilot certificate in a twin without ever flying a single?

Nope, I think Danny Kaye did that in his Aztec, but I didn't get my twin until after PP and ony had a bit of BE-18 from getting rides back from the island with an MEI/buddy deadheading. Getting my PP was primarily 150/2 and some 172/172RG/182/PA-28-161 getting my PP and then about 20 PA-28-200R before I bought my Travelair around 60hrs TT. Was trying to get my PPMEL to land on 66.6, but the weather wouldn't cooperate and I got it with 67 something.

 

[bnt83]

The 150 had a cageble horizon. The turn & bank was not. The DG was not. Never had a gyro failure in it.

The Cardinal has a rare spendy DG so I'd rather not find out.

Never spun the cardinal, always wanted to.

 

[jesse]

The 150 had a cageble horizon. The turn & bank was not. The DG was not. Never had a gyro failure in it.

The Cardinal has a rare spendy DG so I'd rather not find out.

Never spun the cardinal, always wanted to.

I've never spun the Flybaby either, certainly have thought about it, but there's something about it that seems slightly more "test pilot" than I'd prefer to be.

Most likely it'd spin great and recover just fine.

 

[bnt83]

I've never spun the Flybaby either, certainly have thought about it, but there's something about it that seems slightly more "test pilot" than I'd prefer to be.

Most likely it'd spin great and recover just fine.

Seems like the older I get and the more I learn about what holds these things together (or tears them apart) the less risks I take.

 

[Tom-D]

I wish I had more training in welding way back when I was in A&P school.

 

[bnt83]

I wish I had more training in welding way back when I was in A&P school.

I'm seriously wanting to buy some sort of wire machine that run on 115/230 volts. Something to build jigs or temp jigs.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm seriously wanting to buy some sort of wire machine that run on 115/230 volts.

Watch for a welding supply company to give demos here it's about once every 6 months or so.

 

[bnt83]

Watch for a welding supply company to give demos here it's about once every 6 months or so.

Been surfing other forums and getting a lot of different opinions. Googling Milermatic 211 for instance comes up with a ton of people how have used them.

 

[Henning]

I wish I had more training in welding way back when I was in A&P school.

Yeah, I noticed that none of the A&Ps I worked with, including my IA boss, was comfortable with welding. I guess all in all, anymore there really isn't that big of a need for welding that it can't be filled as long as 10% of the work force qualifies. It is a valuable skill though I encourage anyone to pick up.

 

[bnt83]

Yeah, I noticed that none of the A&Ps I worked with, including my IA boss, was comfortable with welding. I guess all in all, anymore there really isn't that big of a need for welding that it can't be filled as long as 10% of the work force qualifies. It is a valuable skill though I encourage anyone to pick up.

I could shade tree weld ok with my right but I don't have it anymore or the tools to try left handed.

 

[Henning]

I'm seriously wanting to buy some sort of wire machine that run on 115/230 volts. Something to build jigs or temp jigs.

With the new inverter drive power supplies it's really amazing at what you can do with 115v household current. I also really like the "any power" feature because no matter where in the world I am, if there is electricity to tap, I can use it, it doesn't care what variety of juice I feed it, 50/60hz, single, split, or three phase... Doesn't care. If I can find a pair of poles that reads between 100 and 300v, I've got a machine to weld with.

 

[bnt83]

With the new inverter drive power supplies it's really amazing at what you can do with 115v household current. I also really like the "any power" feature because no matter where in the world I am, if there is electricity to tap, I can use it, it doesn't care what variety of juice I feed it, 50/60hz, single, split, or three phase... Doesn't care. If I can find a pair of poles that reads between 100 and 300v, I've got a machine to weld with.

Sounds pretty cool.

I'd kinda like to build myself a set of wing jacks too for HW Cessna.

 

[Henning]

Sounds pretty cool.

I'd kinda like to build myself a set of wing jacks too for HW Cessna.

Most of those machines are good for 1/4 steel on 115, so you should have no worries. I do suggest using gas shielding vs cored wire though. The only place I have had results I was liking was with light sheet metal spot tack work.

 

[brcase]

Damn near everyone could use some spin training, wish I had access to a good airplane to do it with. Had a student from a different flight school that just passed his private put the 172 into a spin doing a power off stall yesterday. I gave him some time to see what he would do, fired off some verbal commands, and finally stomped the right rudder and pushed the yoke forward myself once we were about 3/4 turn in. Would typically just let it develop but didn't know the guy well and we didn't have much altitude to spare.

After that we climbed way up and I had him do falling leaf stalls for a few thousand feet so he could learn what his feet are for.

I used to teach in a Champ that was great at demonstrating this if the student got a bit slow in slow flight it would gently drop a wing and lower the nose, often the student would correct by adding aileron and elevator which would cause it to just lower then wing and nose some more. By the time the plane had turned a 1/4 turn the student would have the stick full back and opposite aileron and still not realizing they were entering a spin.

Brian

 

[bnt83]

Most of those machines are good for 1/4 steel on 115, so you should have no worries. I do suggest using gas shielding vs cored wire though. The only place I have had results I was liking was with light sheet metal spot tack work.

I've never welded with core stuff before. I have some stick experience and can do ok with it. Most of my experience is MIG.

That all being said I really hate to have a bottle kicking around if I don't use the machine enough.

Tough decisions

 

[DFH65]

My instructor did spin entries with me just to show me what they looked like although he did the recovery. We did it in more than one plane although in one we forgot to lock the horizon and managed to tumble the gyro and it didn't fix itself which did not make his father who owned the planes happy.

In my limited experience with stalls and wing drops in a 172 unless you are in a fully developed spin you can often just let go of everything and it will mostly fix itself. My current instructor showed me this.

As for the initial question more towered airport experience. I flew out of a small rural airport (still do) and I think I only went into towered airports maybe 4 or 5 times including to pick up the DPE for my test. The first few times and during the night flying the instructor did all the radio work.

Here is an odd one too the airport I picked up the DPE was about 30-40 minute drive from my home airport we landed at my home airport for the last part of the exam and he said I could drive him back to the airport save me the gas of going there and back in the plane. If he hadn't signed me off you would think he was afraid to fly with me.

 

[Henning]

I've never welded with core stuff before. I have some stick experience and can do ok with it. Most of my experience is MIG.

That all being said I really hate to have a bottle kicking around if I don't use the machine enough.

Tough decisions

Tell me about, believe me I tried to rid myself of the bottle. In the end though, I couldn't, there just wasn't sufficient flexibility without it.

 

[Henning]

My instructor did spin entries with me just to show me what they looked like although he did the recovery. We did it in more than one plane although in one we forgot to lock the horizon and managed to tumble the gyro and it didn't fix itself which did not make his father who owned the planes happy.

In my limited experience with stalls and wing drops in a 172 unless you are in a fully developed spin you can often just let go of everything and it will mostly fix itself. My current instructor showed me this.

As for the initial question more towered airport experience. I flew out of a small rural airport (still do) and I think I only went into towered airports maybe 4 or 5 times including to pick up the DPE for my test. The first few times and during the night flying the instructor did all the radio work.

Here is an odd one too the airport I picked up the DPE was about 30-40 minute drive from my home airport we landed at my home airport for the last part of the exam and he said I could drive him back to the airport save me the gas of going there and back in the plane. If he hadn't signed me off you would think he was afraid to fly with me.

Usually if you sustain a 3G pull in a turn as long as you have energy for, you can get a gyro to 'untumble' if they keep tripping/tumbling.