Training in a Piper Archer Now. Got Any Tips/Tricks/Advice?

onezuludelta

onezuludelta

Pre-takeoff checklist
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OneZuluDelta
I've switched in my PPL training from a 152 to an Archer (PA-28-180 or 181, a 1975 with the Hershey bar wing), and I wanted to ask the hive mind: do you know of any good resources for Piper Archer specific info? I'm just trying to devour as much as I can between flights (because being on the ground drives me crazy). Tips, tricks, best practices, landing hints/techniques, typical climb/cruise/descent speeds, range, what types of missions you like to use the plane for, what it's not good for, fun experiences, scary experiences, anything like that would be more than welcome. I'm studying the POH but real-world experiences often differ, right?
 
I switched from a 172 to a Warrior during training, then to an Archer before finishing. Main difference for me were the fuel pump, you don't need carb heat. For me, the different sight picture was the main thing. I always felt like I was a lot lower than I really was, which caused me to flare too early in the beginning.

Memorize your new Vspeeds and checklists, taking note of the differences so as to get rid of any habits you picked up with the Cessna.
 
archer, good plane, easy to fly. I have found 74mph to be my magic # on final for squeaky landings (hershey bar).
 
Great airplane - just gotta think about the fuel pump and switching tanks, but otherwise you'll do great. Don't overthink it and have fun!
 
Great plane and easy to fly. It does want a little power over the fence. I bought a '68 Cherokee with the Hershey bar wing about 10 hours into my training and never regretted it. As every one else mentioned, fuel pump, but also no carb heat and on final unless required (icing).
 
John221us said:
My Cherokee was rated for spins in utility category. I don't know about the Archer.
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I've owned four Cherokee derivatives, including an early 1961 Cherokee 160 and a Hershey bar 180. I don't believe any of them were approved for spins. But I have done a ton of them in rental 150s (my favorite), 152s, and PA38 Tomahawks.

But I recall reading somewhere the Cherokee 140 was certified for spins as long as loaded within the Utility category CG envelope. I also remember hearing it was difficult to stall it and initiate a spin. Is there any validity to that from your experience?
 
GRG55 said:
I've owned four Cherokee derivatives, including an early 1961 Cherokee 160 and a Hershey bar 180. I don't believe any of them were approved for spins. But I have done a ton of them in rental 150s (my favorite), 152s, and PA38 Tomahawks.

But I recall reading somewhere the Cherokee 140 was certified for spins as long as loaded within the Utility category CG envelope. I also remember hearing it was difficult to stall it and initiate a spin. Is there any validity to that from your experience?
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'68 Cherokee 140 and it it was rated for spins in the Utility category. I had the official (not PoH) Owners Manual. http://www.touringmachine.com/PDFs-Txt/Cherokee-140-Owner's-Handbook.pdf. I did not actually spin it, but had scheduled the training with my CFI (retired U2 squadron leader and well respected CFI), but it never happened. Yes, it is reportedly difficult to initiate a spin in a Cherokee.
 
You'll enjoy it. The Archer is a good, safe, comfortable airplane with decent performance. No nasty surprises, no bad habits.

onezuludelta said:
(PA-28-180 or 181, a 1975 with the Hershey bar wing)
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It's a PA-28-180. Piper's model number protocol arbitrarily adds '1' to the horsepower suffix to indicate airplanes with tapered wings.

John221us said:
My Cherokee was rated for spins in utility category. I don't know about the Archer.
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Short-body (pre-1973) Cherokee 180s were approved for intentional spins within a narrow Utility Category weight and balance envelope. I believe intentional spins are prohibited in all long-body PA-28s.
 
Like others have said, fuel pump for landing and take off, no need for carb heat. No time in a 152 but I do have 172 time, it floats more than a Cherokee 140 but less than a 172. Good airplane for sure.
 
As I understand it, the heat circulation around the carburetor in a Piper is different from the way it is in Cessnas, making the Pipers less prone to carb ice at low power settings. Don't know the details, but that jives with my experience. In about a thousand hours in Cherokees I actually had ice maybe twice. On the other hand, my Lycoming-powered 172 often shows signs of carb ice in cool, damp weather at lower power settings.

Therefore, Piper manuals recommend use of carb heat only when ice is suspected.
 
The Cherokee 140 is approved for spins. I did CFI spin training in one. It's very hard to get it to spin.
 
onezuludelta said:
So, why no need for carb heat?
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The way it has been (unintentionally) presented in this thread implies you don't need carb heat at all in the Archer, which isn't true. What is true is you generally don't operate the carb heat during landing in Piper aircraft -- at least the ones in the Cherokee family, anyway -- because the air that flows into the carburetor is unfiltered. Any sediment on the runway surface can therefore be ingested into the engine. I can't find any references to this, but this was the standard operating practice at Purdue and the FBO at Purdue when I taught there a few years ago. Both organizations flew Pipers and followed the same procedures. The reasoning for it was as I just described. That said, we always checked for carb icing during our descent and simply turned it off as part of a before landing flow/checklist when on final.

I did a little digging to see if there was a history of discussions on PoA about this. Back in 2013, Bob Gardner mentioned an NTSB safety alert which encouraged operators to more liberally use carb heat. That alert has since been updated and is available here and here. Additional information is in an FAA Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin here. Finally, an advisory circular AC-20-113 regarding induction system icing is available here.
 
Harold Rutila said:
What is true is you generally don't operate the carb heat during landing in Piper aircraft -- at least the ones in the Cherokee family, anyway -- because the air that flows into the carburetor is unfiltered. Any sediment on the runway surface can therefore be ingested into the engine.
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I thought I read somewhere that was the reason for not using carb heat during taxi. Thanks for the links, I'll check those out!
 
Harold Rutila said:
The way it has been (unintentionally) presented in this thread implies you don't need carb heat at all in the Archer, which isn't true. What is true is you generally don't operate the carb heat during landing in Piper aircraft -- at least the ones in the Cherokee family, anyway -- because the air that flows into the carburetor is unfiltered. Any sediment on the runway surface can therefore be ingested into the engine. I can't find any references to this, but this was the standard operating practice at Purdue and the FBO at Purdue when I taught there a few years ago. Both organizations flew Pipers and followed the same procedures. The reasoning for it was as I just described. That said, we always checked for carb icing during our descent and simply turned it off as part of a before landing flow/checklist when on final.

I did a little digging to see if there was a history of discussions on PoA about this. Back in 2013, Bob Gardner mentioned an NTSB safety alert which encouraged operators to more liberally use carb heat. That alert has since been updated and is available here and here. Additional information is in an FAA Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin here. Finally, an advisory circular AC-20-113 regarding induction system icing is available here.
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I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe the operators manual) that it increased the chance of detonation, so you only use carb heat when truly needed, not as a prophylactic (that word wasn't in there, but it is fun word to use on PoA).
 
eman1200 said:
archer, good plane, easy to fly. I have found 74mph to be my magic # on final for squeaky landings (hershey bar).
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Like any four seater, that number depends on loading.

They get hot in summer, but visibility is good. You can taxi with the door open, but don't try to close it in flight if you forget.
 
MAKG1 said:
Like any four seater, that number depends on loading....
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obviously. and it depends on more than just loading. and like every other post on the internet, there are a thousand "but what about..." comments that can be made. I am obviously not going to address every scenario. in general, normal ops, normal winds, normal-ish weight, that's a good starting #. for me. adjust as needed.
 
It took me about an hour to transition from a 150 to a Cherokee. Good luck and have fun.
 
Does anyone know the glide ratio for an Archer? I can't fly this weekend so I'm stuck playing with Foreflight and dreaming and they have the new Glide Advisor feature.
 
On landings, remember that it's a little more nose heavy than a 152, so keep the sight picture right. Also keep in mind that the nose wheel is tightly steerable; in a Cessna, it's a suggestion, but in Pipers it is hard linked. That's why you don't push on the rudder during preflights, it's all linked directly to the nosewheel, which isn't going to turn easily. In a crosswind landing, it creates some interesting dynamics as you transition from flying to taxiing. If you hold a crosswind rudder input too long after touchdown, at some point the nosewheel will bite and you will steer yourself right off the runway.
 
I own and fly a taper winged Archer II...
Intentional spins are prohibited. I don't use carb heat normally beyond a quick check to see if I get a slight RPM drop when it's on. I have never experienced carb ice but suspected or known ice are the only reason I'd have it on for more than a momentary test.
10gph is a good fuel burn planning number, you'll probably use less buzzing around the pattern and doing general student pilot stuff but it's better to plan to burn more and this will be close to actual for cross country.... plus it makes the math really easy.
For student pilot stuff you won't touch it much but if you're on a cross country and find you keep drifting off course check the rudder trim
Landings will be easy once you get the feel. Once over the runway hold it level in ground effect to bleed off some speed, as soon as you feel yourself start to sink start a gentle flare. If you have your speed right it will pretty much land it's self from there.
Fuel tank switching isn't a big deal. Just come up with a system... rounding your takeoff time to the nearest hour/half hour then switching it every 30min- 1hr from there works pretty well.
 
GRG55 said:
I've owned four Cherokee derivatives, including an early 1961 Cherokee 160 and a Hershey bar 180. I don't believe any of them were approved for spins. But I have done a ton of them in rental 150s (my favorite), 152s, and PA38 Tomahawks.

But I recall reading somewhere the Cherokee 140 was certified for spins as long as loaded within the Utility category CG envelope. I also remember hearing it was difficult to stall it and initiate a spin. Is there any validity to that from your experience?
Click to expand...
True on the spins in the 140 in utility category, which is a hard target to reach with a couple of occupants and more than about an hour of fuel.
 
Just a comment on rudder trim on the PA28: use it. If you set the elevator trim for climb, set the rudder trim for a centered ball. If you set the elevator trim for level cruise, set the rudder trim for centered ball. If you are in level cruise with a one wing low then you are out of trim.
 
When did rudder trim come into PA-28s? Not there in the mid-80s Warrior IIs that I've flown.
 
John221us said:
My Cherokee was rated for spins in utility category. I don't know about the Archer.
Click to expand...
The lower HP engines cherokee 140/150 are ok for spins but only in the utility category. The 180 is legal for some of th commercial manuevers but again, only in utility and no spins. The only way I can get my 180 into utility is with 16 gal of fuel (8 in each tank) and one person and it's not me, I weigh too much.
 
Mine had it. A '68 Cherokee. No throttle quadrant, though. You could really trim it out. Easy to fly plane.
 
Clark1961 said:
Just a comment on rudder trim on the PA28: use it. If you set the elevator trim for climb, set the rudder trim for a centered ball. If you set the elevator trim for level cruise, set the rudder trim for centered ball. If you are in level cruise with a one wing low then you are out of trim.
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Or you need to have the rigging checked. That's on my list for annual this summer.
 
onezuludelta said:
Does anyone know the glide ratio for an Archer? I can't fly this weekend so I'm stuck playing with Foreflight and dreaming and they have the new Glide Advisor feature.
Click to expand...
about 1.6. I glided over 9 miles to the airport and had to slip on final to loose altitude. I started at 9500. (79, Archer II)
 
murphey said:
Or you need to have the rigging checked. That's on my list for annual this summer.
Click to expand...
The tool to check is spec'd in the MM and is simple to make....
 
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