Touch and Go Safety

gsengle said:
It's called a keyhole because it's shape resembles the hole, not the key
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But the OP called it "key" and "key area" not "keyhole" so even among you fellers @ 7Bravo2 there's no convention. I hear circus music...
 
MAKG1 said:
I think you should look at an aerial view of the airport before accusing the OP of changing his story. It's quite apparent both of those "stories" can be true at the same time. It's your misunderstanding. This "turnaround" is not a run-up area. It's about 50 feet wide. That's it. It has no exits aside from the runway centerline. And at the end of a 3000 foot runway. A student pilot might be a bit low overhead after a T&G in, say, an overloaded 152. He should be able to full-stop in time, but a T&G takes MORE runway, not less, especially if the pilot isn't landing to ACS standards and does 1000 feet of student pilot floating.

The location there is rather vulnerable to other pilots screwing up. I'd be ticked as well, especially if I was on the centerline trying to backtaxi, or if I had my back to landing traffic.
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Excellent point. You can still argue it either way but I wonder how many people looked before commenting.
7B2-2.PNG 7B2-3.PNG
 
midlifeflyer said:
Is there someone other than @gsengle from there (currently, I mean; I left about 25 years ago)?
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I am from close by in MA and have been in and out of there a few times. I would have no idea what someone is walking about if they said "key area"
 
neilw2 said:
I am from close by in MA and have been in and out of there a few times. I would have no idea what someone is walking about if they said "key area"
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Me either. I never heard either term when I flew out of there.

"Keyhole" I'd figure out easily enough on the fly (so to speak). "Key area" not so much.
 
Lachlan said:
But the OP called it "key" and "key area" not "keyhole" so even among you fellers @ 7Bravo2 there's no convention. I hear circus music...
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He is a transient, I'm based there. It's referred to as the keyhole.

On a side note this is a really cool active community airport and flight school.


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gsengle said:
The op seems to be saying the pilot behind him may have touched down before he cleared. Not that that is necessarily a problem either.


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can someone educate me (a low time PP with very little uncrontrolled time)

i thought that the definition of runway incursion is more than one plane at a time on the runway. to my understanding, i thought that no plane (whether landing or taxiing) can pass the hold short line/touch the runway until the other plane is fully clear of the runway
 
midlifeflyer said:
Excellent point. You can still argue it either way but I wonder how many people looked before commenting.
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He couldn't make the taxi way???

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The taxiway is at midfield or about 1500 feet. I almost never make it in the Mooney.


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MIFlyer said:
can someone educate me (a low time PP with very little uncrontrolled time)

i thought that the definition of runway incursion is more than one plane at a time on the runway. to my understanding, i thought that no plane (whether landing or taxiing) can pass the hold short line/touch the runway until the other plane is fully clear of the runway
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Not true. ATC will give the "line up & wait" instruction while another aircraft is still on the runway. Also at most non-towered fields, the aircraft waiting to take off will frequently pull onto the runway right after the aircraft in front of him has started his takeoff roll or when the landing aircraft has passed by.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Not true. ATC will give the "line up & wait" instruction while another aircraft is still on the runway. Also at most non-towered fields, the aircraft waiting to take off will frequently pull onto the runway right after the aircraft in front of him has started his takeoff roll or when the landing aircraft has passed by.
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All true SkyDog. In the controller's handbook it's called "anticipating separation". At the Air Force bases I worked towers at we could even use "reduced runway separation" between like aircraft, fighters for instance, so an F-15 could land behind an F-16 as long as the F-16 was 3000' or more down the runway. Think that's how I recall it, sound right Tim?
 
MIFlyer said:
can someone educate me (a low time PP with very little uncrontrolled time)

i thought that the definition of runway incursion is more than one plane at a time on the runway. to my understanding, i thought that no plane (whether landing or taxiing) can pass the hold short line/touch the runway until the other plane is fully clear of the runway
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That's not the definition of a runway incursion.
https://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/media/pdf/PHAK - Appendix 1 - April 2012.pdf
 
The turn around looks just like I expected from the initial explanation. once he was past the line at the end of the runway it was his responsibility to stay clear of the following aircraft. I'm sorry he thinks the is unfair, but it was his responsibility to wait until there was no more landing traffic before heading back to back taxi. I'm not seeing anything wrong on the other aircraft's part.
 
I fly out of a very "informal" private use airport. The runway is 2,900 feet of asphalt, but all taxiways are grass. It is pretty common to roll out to the end of the runway or turn off into the grass (not necessarily on the taxiway) to make room for arriving traffic. The bottom line is you were paying attention and playing it safe. The other people may have seen you and felt safe, or perhaps it was a busy flight lesson and they never knew you were there. Personally, I hate not being able to see landing traffic behind me. I always prefer to exit the runway and turn where I can see the traffic, but I know that isn't realastic on runways with edge lights and unprepared infields.
 
James331 said:
He couldn't make the taxi way???
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Whether he had the ability to land and taxi off is irrelevant. He didn't and that's the scenario both pilots had to deal with.

BTW, you may notice I haven't taken sides. I wasn't there.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Whether he had the ability to land and taxi off is irrelevant. He didn't and that's the scenario both pilots had to deal with.

BTW, you may notice I haven't taken sides. I wasn't there.
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Agreed.

However when it's busy, it's just common curtesy to minimize your time on the active runway. Most GA planes should be able to get off at the mid field taxiway without heroic measures.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Not true. ATC will give the "line up & wait" instruction while another aircraft is still on the runway. Also at most non-towered fields, the aircraft waiting to take off will frequently pull onto the runway right after the aircraft in front of him has started his takeoff roll or when the landing aircraft has passed by.
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Thanks. I've never seen our controllers do this, even when it gets very busy. Good to know


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MIFlyer said:
Thanks. I've never seen our controllers do this, even when it gets very busy. Good to know


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I've also landed on a runway before another airplane had taxied off at a towered airport. First time, I said I was going to go around and ATS replied I was cleared to land "sufficient spacing."
 
midlifeflyer said:
I've also landed on a runway before another airplane had taxied off at a towered airport. First time, I said I was going to go around and ATS replied I was cleared to land "sufficient spacing."
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Ours does the opposite.....+5,000 ft runway and if a poor soul is in the middle of it exiting....you're going around.
 
James331 said:
Agreed.

However when it's busy, it's just common curtesy to minimize your time on the active runway. Most GA planes should be able to get off at the mid field taxiway without heroic measures.
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Yes but please there isn't any such thing as an active runway at an uncontrolled airport. They are all available for use and no one controls who uses what. Don't ask for the active don't tell someone the active, that's controlled airport terminology....


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gsengle said:
Yes but please there isn't any such thing as an active runway at an uncontrolled airport. They are all available for use and no one controls who uses what. Don't ask for the active don't tell someone the active, that's controlled airport terminology....


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... what's your experience level?

If everyone is using runway 18, that's the active as far as most folks are concerned.

Yes, you could be a blazing idiot and shoot 36, no the non existent tower won't prevent it, but the flow of traffic and having an IQ above that of a house hold pet WOULD prevent using 36 when you got 4 planes in the pattern for 18, that's called airmanship and common sense.



Also

Definition of active
5: marked by vigorous activity : busy <the stock market was activ
10: marked by present operation, transaction, movement, or use <anactive account
 
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Yeah, but you likely have four planes landing downwind because the lemmings won't suggest that they ought to be using the more favorable runway.
 
They are all active runways. Without ATC defining one as active. You don't get as a pilot to declare a particular one *the* active.


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gsengle said:
They are all active runways. Without ATC defining one as active. You don't get as a pilot to declare a particular one *the* active.


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Without ATC declaring it the active, it's my job as a pilot to declare it as the active. So in all reality, yes I do.
 
NO. And that's dangerous. Your job is to say what you're doing. "Departing runway 13", clear of the runway etc. That's just for you not for the airport.


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gsengle said:
NO. And that's dangerous. Your job is to say what you're doing. "Departing runway 13", clear of the runway etc. That's just for you not for the airport.

Now what if two pilots differ in your scheme as to what is "the active"?


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flyingron said:
Yeah, but you likely have four planes landing downwind because the lemmings won't suggest that they ought to be using the more favorable runway.
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I'll chirp up and ask if folks want to change, but if not, the active is the ones folks are using, rather go land with a tailwind than go head to head with 4 weekend warriors in their 172s.



gsengle said:
They are all active runways. Without ATC defining one as active. You don't get as a pilot to declare a particular one *the* active.


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ATC defining active < 4 3,000+lb pieces of aluminum going over 100MPH defining as active.

If you need ATC to tell you which is the "active" that's ....not good

gsengle said:
Now what if two pilots differ in your scheme as to what is "the active"?
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Well like your CFI should have taught you, you communicate with the other pilot and arrange something safe, all else fails and he's an idiot or doesn't have his listening ears on, you land after him.
 
gsengle said:
NO. And that's dangerous. Your job is to say what you're doing. "Departing runway 13", clear of the runway etc. That's just for you not for the airport.


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Dangerous? So who is supposed to make the decision as to what runway is in use at an non-towered field? Me, the pilot. I disagree with your argument.

Ever called up UNICOM and asked for airport advisories and they tell you which runway is in use? I suppose that would be dangerous as well.
 
This is an uncontrolled field. There is no atc, therefore no one active runway. Every pilot gets to pick for him or her self. Saying you're doing something like "taking the active" is poor form because it's potentially ambiguous.


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Ryanb said:
Dangerous? So who is supposed to make the decision as to what runway is in use at an non-towered field? Me, the pilot. I disagree with your argument.

Ever called up UNICOM and asked for airport advisories and they tell you which runway is in use? I suppose that would be dangerous as well.
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Yep it's dangerous. You call up "taking the active". You're departing 32. Someone is landing 14. They think that's the active. No atis no atc. Good phraseology is "departing runway 32". So yes it's dangerous. At an uncontrolled field there is no one "active" runway and implying otherwise is problematic. They are all active unless closed.


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gsengle said:
This is an uncontrolled field. There is no atc, therefore no one active runway. Every pilot gets to pick for him or her self. Saying you're doing something like "taking the active" is poor form because it's potentially ambiguous.


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I take it you fly/train out of a towered field?

If there are planes in the pattern, not observing and listening before making a plan is in bad forum. If you got a few guys landing 15, that's the active.

If you're the only one, yeah, say you're landing 15.
 
No I fly out of uncontrolled primarily. I'm sorry if no one taught you this before.


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Ryanb said:
Dangerous? So who is supposed to make the decision as to what runway is in use at an non-towered field? Me, the pilot. I disagree with your argument.
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The argument he disagrees with:
gsengle said:
Every pilot gets to pick for him or her self.
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Violent agreement! :D

Non-towered field. Pilot decides on which runway. Input of other valuable but not binding.
 
Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like what they think a pro sounds like ;)


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gsengle said:
Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like a pro ;)


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You also can pick to drive south bound on a north bound road, or try to exercise your right of way as a pedestrian with a semi truck in a iced road.


Saying the active is no bueno, but "the key" is cool?? :rolleyes:



Guess I'm a pro trying to sounds like newbie lol


But as far as any runway you want being the active, no matter of the traffic sounds a lot like

y23Q27K.gif



If you got folks in the pattern for one runway, you taxi off and say clear the active, every single pilot working that runway knows exactly what you're talking about.

Say something about "the key" and not so much,
 
gsengle said:
Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like a pro ;)


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That's the whole point, you've said it's not the pilots' job to declare a runway the active, but now you say we as pilots "get to pick YOUR active." :dunno: Sounds like you contradicted yourself.

So that's the whole argument I'm implying. There is no ATC declared active runway, but it's our job as pilots to declare it the active, whether others' agree with my active runway or not, that's the RWY I've chosen to use.
 
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Why is it important to label any particular runway as active?

I was at Watsonville a few days ago. There was one other aircraft, landing 27. I landed 20, since I don't think freaking out soccer moms at the shopping center is very nice (it's VERY close to the 27 threshold). Which was "active" and why does it matter?

Announce a runway number, and people don't have to guess what you mean.
 
gsengle said:
Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like what they think a pro sounds like ;)
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You won't sound like a newbie. Plenty of pilots use the term. Some very, very experienced. Just an unfortunate habit like "with you." I stopped getting all bent out of shape about people using the term "active" at nontowered fields.

"Clear of the active" is completely harmless. All it tells me is they are no longer on a runway, and that's all I care about. One could just as easily say, "clear of the runway" with no number at all, even at airports with multiple strips of runway pavement. Same for "taxiing to the active." "Taking the active" is potentially a bit more problematic, but I really don't hear that one much - "departing runway [number] seems to be common even among "active" people. Besides, I figure I can see them when it matters. And frankly, I have never heard "left downwind for the active" or "short final, the active."

So, while technically wrong to use the term "active runway" at a nontowered field, and I teach my students to avoid it, it's mostly much ado about nothing.
 
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