Time in Make and Model for Insurance Purposes

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by darrell, Nov 15, 2017.

Tags:
  1. darrell

    darrell Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Jacksonville, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    darrell
    I am sure this is a terrible question and I'm sure the answer is obvious, but just in case....

    I am going to get an instructor put on my aircraft's insurance, and it's a C177RG. He has no time in a C177RG, but he does have time in a C172RG. Can he count his C172RG time as Time In Make and Model?

    I'm assuming the answer is obviously no, but I'm about to send him the form from the insurance agent and I'd love to be able to tell him to count his Cutlass time for the Cardinal.

    Thanks!
     
  2. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    8,982
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    What goes here?
    Both of them are of the same Make (Manufacturer) which is Cessna.

    However, they are of two different models. One is a 172RG and the other a 177RG.

    So, the answer is no.
     
    dmspilot likes this.
  3. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,069
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    No. And for good reason. A 177RG is a different animal from a 172RG. Different wing, very different tail configuration.
     
  4. jonnyjetprop

    jonnyjetprop Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2011
    Messages:
    994
    Location:
    Apopka, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    A better answer is to ask the insurance agent or company. The answer on the C-177RG vs. C-172RG would be most likely no.
     
    Ted DuPuis likes this.
  5. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    11,643
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    Time in make and model,is key.the premium will probably be high,untill he gets some time in the plane.
     
  6. tawood

    tawood Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,321
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    When I bought my current plane, I had 500 hours, but 0 in make and model. I called my insurance agent, and asked him, "If I get an instructor check out, fly for a total of 10 hours in my new plane, then call you back, will you insure me? He said, "Sure!" So, I know it involved risking loss, but I did it. Done.
     
  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,495
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Frankly, after you get some minimum (5-25) hours time in type, I've not found it to be a big thing with the insurers. Actually, the open pilot clause on my policy just requires 25 hours retract time (no time in type).

    I joked with the ex-USAF guy who does my BFRs. He used to fly U2s. I asked him if the wheels fall off your airplane does that count as retract time.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  8. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    44,890
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    The instructor was risking a lot doing that, too.
     
  9. tawood

    tawood Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,321
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tim
    Agreed, but he was a friend of mine, and pointed out that about 1/4 the people flying at small fields don't have insurance.
     
  10. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    9,178
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    When we bought the Mooney we started using a guy who was supposedly an expert in the airplane. He had us coming in at 80kts over the fence, and anyone who knows a smidge about these planes knows 80kts means you land in the next county. After two lessons, we fired him, and asked the guy we had been using for BFRs and IPCs if he'd do our 10hr checkout, as we knew him to be a thorough and conscientious CFI.

    He said he didn't know anything about Mooneys, but he'd study it and get back to us. A week later he agrees to train us, and he did a fine job. He liked the Mooney well enough that he went and bought one for himself after we were signed off.
     
  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,757
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    He can't count is 172RG time as 177RG time, but that doesn't mean it doesn't count. You never know what an insurance underwriter is going to do. They look at all sorts of things when making a decision - most of the line items in the application and sometimes more. I've done it and I've been surprised a few times. Here's one.

    A recurrent training client wanted to add me to his insurance policy for a Mooney Ovation. I had zero time in type. On the application, I put a zero with an asterisk. The asterisk information was my time in other Mooney models (mostly Js) and my time in A36 Bonanzas. Those who have flown them know an Ovation is a different beast than either of them, (IMO, much bigger than the difference between a Cutlass and a Cardinal), but I figured time in a similar make and time with a similar HP engine might make a difference.

    My client asked what I thought would happen. I said, "If we are unbelievably lucky, they'll want..." We were unbelievably lucky.
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,757
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Too funny. And too true. This was a pretty widespread problem in the early Cirrus years.

    I understand the general desire for type-specific CFIs for type-specific training, but good CFIs are good CFIs.
     
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  13. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    22,333
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iBanYou
    This. I had 0 time in the 414 when I started flying it, but I had around 1,000 hours in the 310, plus a few hundred or so in Navajos. Insurance figgered I knew enough. Ended up going to school (and made corrections on their material) but did the initial ferry flight before I went to school. Had 0 hours of dual in the aircraft itself, although now I need to do an IPC once/year.

    Tell them what you and the CFI do have, and a lot of times they'll work with you.
     
  14. darrell

    darrell Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Jacksonville, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    darrell
    Thanks for the info! Like I said the answer is obvious I just have to allow myself to see it. ;) Not terribly worried since the instructor has several hundred hours in Barons and KingAirs. More worried about me since I'm very low time and no complex or retract time, but hey that's the reason for the instructor!
     
  15. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,069
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    It helps ALOT if you have an established relationship with your insurance guy. Known quantity can make a huge difference.

    I have been able to get coverage for ferry jobs on types I’ve never flown this way.
     
  16. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    4,002
    Location:
    SoCal
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joe Farrell, yeah, him
    Sometimes your carrier simply wants a check off by an instructor.

    If you have 1000 or more of PIC retract/hp/complex and an instructor who knows you, and your skill set, you get a 1 hour chat about differences, and gear / flap operation - and s/he signs you off.

    If you have a CFI-I with 18000 hours in various aircraft types, you have 1500 hours in little airplanes, 90% of which is high perf complex, and you're type rated in a couple of different jets, and he only has time in your type as rightseater - he's gonna chat with you about checklists and verification - not stalls and turns around a point. If he knows you have current stick and rudder skills, are operating the same type of avionics, and just need some transition time- you may get signed off without setting foot together in the airplane.

    You go up with strangers - its a whole different ball game. You're PIC - you need to understand how the systems work - and he's not going to do that for you.

    Just depends what the carrier wants - I was asked for 'sign off to act as PIC' with zero time requirements in Comanche, but ths was after the Mooney and Viking checkouts - how much an instructor tell you about single engine sub 400hp airplanes? Too much airspeed in the flare and you're gonna coast forever in a Comanche or Mooney. Same basic wing. Whereas a Commander or Arrow, who cares? Bellanca Viking? A few quirks - but again - nothing you don't have with over 1000 hours of PIC complex/ High perf time.

    Like @Fearless Tower notes
     
  17. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    So help me out here... Why are you adding a CFI to your insurance? I fly my planes with CFI's and none of them are named pilots on the club (2) or my personal plane.

    Is there more story to this story?
     
  18. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    15,656
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Is it a risk sure, a lot of risk, well that depends on the condition of the plane, experience and skill of the CFI, and the nature of the flying.

    Heck liability wise leaving your house everyday could be considered a huge risk lol



    Because some CFIs dont want to play the "will his insurance pay him but later come after me" game, the cleanest way to avoid this is often just getting added onto the policy, this also seldom costs more since normally the CFI is less of a risk than the student owner.
     
  19. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,069
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    This has a lot to do with it.

    Also, not all policies and specifically open pilot warranties are written the same way. Sometimes the open pilot requirements are so high that it is much easier to get the CFI named on the policy.
     
  20. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    I would think the CFI would only be flying in my plane with me, so where's the added potential liability?
     
  21. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,676
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Who is going to be responsible if there is an accident? You may believe it is you but I'd bet that at least partial blame would eventually be placed on the instructor. If the instructor isn't insured (either via the open pilot policy or named insured on your insurance, or via his own insurance) he may be placed in an a bad position should something happen and your insurance company assigns blame to him.
     
  22. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,757
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I would bet that more than 80% of the CFIs who are named on the policy and think they have this kind of protection, but do not have a waiver of subrogation endorsement. Which means the insurer can still go after them.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  23. Ken Whitson

    Ken Whitson Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    College Station, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TigerTracker
    This may not be fully germane to the OP's question, but it is an insurance story to add to the mix. I recently purchased an airplane after a long (lonnnnnnnnnng) absence from matters aviation. The insurer gave lots of credence to 1) my Commercial license, 2) my instrument rating, and 3) my total time of close to 2000 hours. The fact that I was years (yeeeeeaaaaaarrrrs) away from being current seemed not to be an issue. Only 5 hours in make and model were required. I did that with a CFI as I brought old skills and training back to life in the plane that I purchased. An added bonus was that the rates were toward the low end of what I was expecting.
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.
  24. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Actually, I think CFI's have insurance to cover events while they are instructing. Perhaps an actual CFI can opine. But I think it is famously stupid to add an instructor to your plane policy.

    Do you add driving instructors to your auto policy when your precious teenager is learning to drive? Most likely not.

    Enter @mscard88 and the host of other resident CFI's to explain to me way I'd ever have to add them as a named pilot on my insurance.
     
  25. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,646
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I never had CFI insurance...for the amount of time I spent instructing as an independent instructor, I'd have to charge $300 an hour just to pay the premium.

    The pilots who wanted/needed me as an instructor were happy to get me added as an additional insured with a waiver of subrogation, and their insurance companies never balked.
     
    mondtster likes this.
  26. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,676
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    I am a CFI, and I gave you an answer. You'd be incorrect assuming that CFIs all have insurance covering things of this nature. Some do however, as I've alluded to.

    I do 99.9% of my instructing through an FBO, who carries insurance for these kinds of things. This is one reason some FBOs will charge extra for instruction in a customer owned airplane. I do however give some flight instruction to a good friend of mine who has me named insured on all of his airplanes. It's a more common occurrence than you think.
     
  27. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    So the lesson learned seems to be, if you have to insure your CFI, find a CFI you don't have to insure.

    Sorry guys, I don't buy tools for A&P's, I don't buy gas for the gardener. Cover your cost of doing business and include it your rate. Very easy.

    I'd love to send an invoice to a client that includes their share of my Errors and Omissions Policy. Heck, let me throw in my health insurance while I'm at it.

    Do you have these people send you 1099's?
     
  28. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,646
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    If you fly an airplane that anybody can give quality instruction in, that's a good plan.

    If you can't find an instructor with insurance that can/will teach your airplane, your solution involves an airplane that you can't fly.

    My "rate" includes insurance, paid by the trainee, normally at no extra cost.
     
    KA550 likes this.
  29. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Perhaps there is a subtly here I need to understand.

    A) for our club planes we allow any CFI for instruction and do not add them to the club insurance. We do require checkouts for insurance purposes to be done by an approved instructor. The approved instructors are not on our insurance policy.

    B) for my personally owned airplane I use 1 instructor who is not on my policy. He did my Make and Model time with me and signed that off. Now we do some upset training and recurrent stuff.

    What am I missing in all this?
     
  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,646
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    You are not flying an airplane for which an instructor with qualifications unavailable in your area are required?
     
  31. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,100
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Esquire99
    Adding a CFI as an additional insured w/ a subrogation waiver isn't "buying" the CFI insurance. In fact, it shouldn't cost anything. If the premium goes up for that addition, find another insurance company or a more experienced CFI.
     
  32. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    19,715
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Never carried it, but I really haven't done any serious instructing since '89. And the lawsuit crap wasn't as rampant as it is these days. As for your planes, I think in order to either fly with you, or fly one of your planes I'd have to meet your policy standards/requirements, which from my past experience has been the case. Usually not a problem with an insurance company, basically just have to be named on your policy and doesn't result in any additional cost to you.
     
  33. darrell

    darrell Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Jacksonville, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    darrell
    I'm not exactly sure why the insurance agent wants to add the CFI to the policy. I didn't ask for more details about it because adding him is not expected to increase the premium, so I can't see why I shouldn't add him to the policy. Is having him named on the policy a bad thing if it doesn't add to the cost of the insurance? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the insurance agent and they aren't actually adding him to the insurance policy by name, but just making sure that he's good to go under the open pilot clause?

    I asked about the make and model question and of course the answer was "no, C172RG and C177RG are not the same make." However the agent said to note on the pilot history form that he did have C172RG time since they were "similar."

    I clearly need to ask the agent to clarify what they are intending to do with my CFI but perhaps more importantly I need a copy of the policy. I am the second owner that has just been added as a partner so the insurance policy existed before I joined the partnership, so I really need to know what the policy is.

    Thank you all for the info so far, it's been enlightening.
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,757
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    No one can clarify why the agent wants to add the CFI to the policy other than the insurance agent and, perhaps, a review of the policy. There are a number of possibilities from an agent who doesn't' know what he's talking about to a "club" policy requiring CFI approval and "approved CFIs" being identified. Those (and yes, I've seen both), and anything in between, are pure speculation without knowing the details.

    Downside of listing the CFI as an insured party for coverage purposes? Well, some people talk about "insurance dilution." The theory is, in case of an accident, if the CFI has his or her own policy, there will be two insurance policies to cover the event: yours and the CFIs. If only your policy is involved, there is only one policy to cover the accident. The two main consequences people point to are:

    Less available insurance in case of an accident. If you have $1 Million coverage and the CFI has $1 Million coverage, there's $2 Million to pay claims. If the CFI is on your policy and it's the only one, them there is only =your= $1 Million to pay claims against both of you. That can leave you underinsured in case of a big accident.
    Legal fee erosion. The policy limits tend to include defense costs. If it does and you and the CFI have inconsistent defenses in a lawsuit (you each blame the other for the accident), the insurer may have to hire two law firms - one for you and one for the CFI.

    How big a deal those are is one of those personal risk/preference calculations. It's not a big deal to me, but it is to others. I've been named and/or insured on some policies, not on others, and have always carried my own CFI insurance regardless.

    I'm not taking sides or giving advice. Just providing some general information.
     
  35. DoubleD

    DoubleD Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    David
    I sense some possible confusion in some posts about the difference between "named pilot" and "named insured". A named pilot means the pilot named is allowed to pilot the plane and the policy holder is insured. The insurance company can still come after the named pilot ("subrogate") to recover their costs. A named insured is insured. However, read the policy. On our current policy, named insured is defined as any qualified pilot (i.e., any who meet the open pilot clause).

    Now I have a question: Is a waiver of subrogation still needed if a pilot is "named insured".
     
  36. RussR

    RussR Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Location:
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Russ
    @Ravioli - I am CFI and am named on numerous insurance policies. It helps greatly in several situations. I do also carry my own insurance.

    1. I find myself regularly flying the owners' airplanes without them in it. For example, they will ask me if I can fly it over to the next airport for avionics work. Or fly his wife down to see the grandkids when he's busy with work. Or any of a bunch of reasons.

    2. Now, if I meet the Open Pilot clause, this isn't an issue. However, I don't always meet the open pilot clause, because they usually specify something like 25 hours in make and model. In my questioning of the insurance agents, make and model is very specific. Doesn't matter how much time I have in a PA32-301T or a PA32R-300T if I don't have any in the PA32R-301T, even though the combination of my experience is basically the same. Since I don't meet the Open Pilot clause, adding me as a named insured is the only way for the owner to be sure that he is covered if I'm flying the airplane.

    3. Adding the CFI as a named pilot typically costs absolutely nothing to anybody, even in a case like my previous point. So there's no downside. This is, of course, assuming the CFI is more experienced than the owner, which is not always the case but usually is. So it's a bit of added protection that allows some additionally flexibility with no cost. Why not?

    4. I am about to start flying with a client in a DA40. I have no time in a DA40. He has lots of previous experience in the DA40, but he wants me to help him get instrument proficient again, so my lack of experience in the airplane isn't as important as if I was teaching him to fly it. I imagine we will probably get me added to his insurance to give us the flexibility talked about previously. Why doesn't he just hire a CFI with experience in type? He certainly could, but apparently my reputation is good enough that he really wants to fly with me (recommended by a friend of his/another client of mine).
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
    midlifeflyer likes this.
  37. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,757
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    As you said,
    These terms are neither universal nor defined uniformly when they are used. For an easy example, Avemco puts its policy form online. Try to find either "named pilot" or "named insured." In fact, you won't even find the word "subrogation."

    BTW, I'm curious about your policy. While I have seen "insured" defined as any qualified pilot, I have never seed "named insured" or "additional insured" defined in that way.
     
  38. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Fort Worth
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pasta Man
    Thanks Russ. You've given me some stuff to consider.

    It's highly unlikely I'd ever ask an instructor to fly my RV somewhere for me. But with the club planes we do have some non-owner instructors who could get such a request. Usually a member will do plane movements because they get to fly for gas only on a maintenance reservation. But I could see where we'd have an non-owner instructor do it and I'll be looking at how that would be covered.
     
  39. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    44,890
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Just throwing the hand grenade...

    FAA would consider that compensation...
     
  40. DoubleD

    DoubleD Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    David
    You are correct. I misquoted the policy.