Thoughts for first plane?

Reuben98

Reuben98

Filing Flight Plan
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ReubenD
Hello all! New here. I am 20 hours into my PPL and looking to get my own airplane. Budget is ideally around 70k max to leave more than enough for potential repairs etc. I am also looking to be able to fly with my family. I'm 165 lbs, she's 135 lbs and we have two kids; 4 and 2 year old - so weight shouldn't

I originally wanted a 172 but I have done my training so far in a Warrior and now I like the low wing.

I have come across this listing: https://indyairsales.com/current-inventory/aircraft/1960s-piper-cherokee-180-garmin-king-avionics/

Can you guys help let me know your thoughts? This would be my first purchase so I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this (or pointing me in a different direction...Mooney or other?)

Thanks!
 
Have your family flown with you, or in a small plane at all, yet? They may have some input on which plane is best. The 172 has the advantages of two doors and no climbing on wings to get in and out. The PA-28 has the advantages of not needing to go up a scary ladder to put gas in, and just generally being low-wing.

How far away are the places you would fly often, and how far are the less common but likely destinations? The PA-28 and 172 are about the same speed and a good choice for a first plane to own. Each can do any distance, but the number of stops and number of hours might push for a faster plane.

Also, what kinds of stuff do you need to pack for the trips you think you’ll take? Bulk and weight of your kids’ stuff, shopping finds, etc can dictate a plane with more useful load.
 
Thanks for the reply! So I've flown with my wife (just on 2 intro/discovery flights) but nothing more. Most of the time (say 80%) we will just be flying locally for fun, building hours and spending family time together. I do have family in Manchester Connecticut that I'd like to be able to go visit (I'd be flying out of KOQN into KHFD which is 169 nm). If we do that trip, we usually take 3 small carry on size suitcases of luggage.

I'm worried the 172 might be underpowered with the 145 hp, but I do agree, the high wing makes it much easier to get into and out of. The wife doesn't seem worried about this (yet anyway) though so it might not be an issue.
 
If it were me, I’d focus on renting different models and building up to taking 2+2 flying with the required headsets, intercom, procedures for a sterile cockpit comm’s in good weather.

BTW your budget won’t get you what you want ( load / range / IR capable) and then you’ll be chasing fixed costs and annuals that take money away from soccer and family vacations that will “win” every time.

You think that you’ll save money by buying but you won’t!

Some people get lucky and nothing breaks for 2-3 years and the pencil whipped “low cost” annuals did not result in a loss of control or power, but those “lucky” people are few.

Could you in the first year after purchase come up with another $8K for a proper annual and another $30K for an engine that goes south?

If the answer is no then join a club or rent don’t buy, IMO.

As the saying goes, don’t get over your skis!


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Some thoughts. I love the air cooled 4 cylinder engines for cooling, less valves and cylinders compared to 6 cylinders. My passengers much prefer a high wing in that the Omni vision and ability to see the ground helps them be entertained versus sitting in the back seats and just seeing a wing. The high wing also helps shield the cabin from the solar heating. Never had family/friends get air sickness in my Cessnas, I have in my Pipers/Bonanza. I think the one door also causes some non pilots feel claustrophobic. All just experience and thoughts
 
OP, focus on finishing your certificate first. Learning to fly does not need to be complicated by learning to own.

A great first ownership opportunity is an equity club or partnership. Your budget will go much further and availability can he similar to sole ownership. You will want to complete your due diligence on the financials and the plane, but it’s a much better way to learn the ins/outs of ownership while also limiting your exposure.
 
Everyone goes through this phase. Training is going well, you start thinking and browsing ads, going "hmmm".

Thing is, you don't know what kind of pilot you are yet. Are you a faster, further, higher pilot? Are you a circles in the sky 100 dollar hamburger person? Or an old timey tube and fabric taildragger fan?

What you think you want at 20 hours may have very little to do with what you actually want a year from now.

Buying a plane locks you in to one kind of flying. You aren't ready to be locked in yet. Wait a while.

Also, you probably don't know enough about planes to smell a red flag yet. At your budget you are going to stumble across a lot of "bargains" that are anything but.

Buying a plane is cool until you find out 6 months later it is making metal and your choices are drop 30 grand on an overhaul or own a lawn ornament.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Thing is, you don't know what kind of pilot you are yet. Are you a faster, further, higher pilot? Are you a circles in the sky 100 dollar hamburger person? Or an old timey tube and fabric taildragger fan?
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Some of us still don't know and just say yes, or at least plan to.
 
Expanding on the excellent advice above from @NH_Moose and @Ed Haywood, the other way to look at the cost/budget thing is that looking for the bargain plane is not the best way to go. The airplane market is like the boat market - you get what you pay for. People come into this thinking it's like the auto market, where if you look hard enough and have patience you usually can find a great deal. Nope. It's very much pay me now or pay me later. Spend more up front on a well-cared-for plane. If your budget is comfortably beyond $70K but you are nervous about reserves, consider expanding your purchase budget. $70K is firmly in the region of risk for heavily neglected stuff.

Also, don't blindly trust a pre-buy, and be careful who you get to do it. Learn some basics about what to look for, both in the logs and physically, on the model of plane you ultimately go after. Plenty of people (myself included) have shelled out a couple grand for a pre-buy only to find out later that the our precious pre-buy had been pencil-whipped.

Echoing the sentiment about figuring out your mission before you leap in head-first. No airplane can be a one size fits all, so choose your size thoughtfully.
 
Repeat after me: There is nothing on this Earth that is more expensive than a cheap airplane.

Given the stage of your training and your budget, I'd start looking at what flying clubs are in your area, or various other multiple-ownership opportunities. A flying club is often an excellent way to have better aircraft availability and nicer aircraft without breaking the bank. Once you've got some more real world experience you'll be able to make a much more informed decision as to what aircraft is best for you and the missions you hope to accomplish with it. (#1 rule of choosing an airplane: ALWAYS start with the mission, and find planes that fit it.)

My usual advice is to start with a Cessna 182 and work from there unless your mission already dictates something different. I was presented a challenge early in the pandemic of a couple that needed some load hauling ability in a reasonable cross country airplane with a purchase budget of just $50K and I found them a Comanche 250 that checked all the boxes. Not gonna see that price again though.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I was presented a challenge early in the pandemic of a couple that needed some load hauling ability in a reasonable cross country airplane with a purchase budget of just $50K and I found them a Comanche 250 that checked all the boxes. Not gonna see that price again though.
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Wow. If it wasn't a total jalopy, they stole it.
 
traumamed said:
Wow. If it wasn't a total jalopy, they stole it.
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The Comanche 250 is often one of the best bargains when it comes to performance per purchase dollar. Keep in mind that this was early in the pandemic, inflation hadn't started yet. IIRC it had a Garmin 430 and ADS-B Out, original interior, and a pretty sharp, if unusual, paint job which I personally like:

1760941650324.png

And yeah, I think they got a great deal.
 
Thank you all, this is extremely helpful. I've always wanted to own so this part isn't new, however I probably am jumping too early like some of you have said. We have our own service business that is rapidly expanding on the East Coast so I will most likely want to fly for sales visits that will also turn into pleasure sight seeing trips afterwards. I actually did very much like the commanche but thought that would be too much plane for me to own as a first timer. For additional info, the budget range I had was a cash purchase so maybe I need to look higher and just finance. I was definitely thinking of waiting and trying to find a good deal...which it seems like that Cherokee 180 might not be seeing as no one has said anything about it .
 
Rent a few different planes after you get your certificate and see which one you (and the family) like the most.
Consider the ratio of family flying for long trips vs just local short-is flights solo. No point in getting a sleek, fast (but expensive to maintain, in comparison) plane to only use it as such 4 times a year.
For the cost of a constant speed propeller overhaul and a retractable gear overhaul, you can install a nice GPS and autopilot in a Cessna 172 or a PA-28. Yeah, not great if you plan on flying from Chicago to Miami every other week. But if that trip only happens 4 times a year, the extra 4 hours of flight time won't matter that much, especially if you don't have to hand fly the whole time.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Yeah, not great if you plan on flying from Chicago to Miami every other week. But if that trip only happens 4 times a year, the extra 4 hours of flight time won't matter that much, especially if you don't have to hand fly the whole time
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Yeah, this is what I was basing my searches for. Much more local, fun and sightseeing trips are going to happen; along with the occasional trip to visit family further away. Based on what everyone is saying, I may just see how difficult renting is first at the local airports. I don't love that idea because I really want my own, but I probably need to get my feet wet before I jump all in...then again sometimes it's better to just jump in. Ugh, why is this so hard
 
Type of plane will dictate a hanger or not with the added costs.

Best figure a cost per hour for ownership.
And be honest.
 
Something like this might be a good plane. I've actually flown in the one pictured and the guy advertising it used my pics.

Facebook

www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
 
Reuben98 said:
Yeah, this is what I was basing my searches for. Much more local, fun and sightseeing trips are going to happen; along with the occasional trip to visit family further away. Based on what everyone is saying, I may just see how difficult renting is first at the local airports. I don't love that idea because I really want my own, but I probably need to get my feet wet before I jump all in...then again sometimes it's better to just jump in. Ugh, why is this so hard
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Don’t think of renting as your long-term solution; think of it as additional training wherein you learn your personal preferences, what works best for your family, and how a plane will be used. Also begin using the time to establish your network, learn about hangar availability, maintenance options, etc. It’s a good idea to join type clubs for planes you’re considering as they are fantastic sources of knowledge and an excellent way to find a plane for purchase.

Your time as a renter is just another learning phase.

Take your time. The sky will still be there.
 
See, @Reuben98 ? I'd bet these are planes that aren't on your radar. You're doing the right thing by asking; just be patient and learn your options.
asicer said:
Different directions: Beech Mouse series, Grumman Cheetah/Tiger, Mooney M20C (E and F might be a budget stretch), Socata TB9/TB10, Commander 112.
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As @schmookeeg and I have pointed out several times, the Beech Mice (Musketeer family) are sleepers in the market, especially the ones with 180 or 200 hp, and can be excellent buys.

The Grumman Tiger has just about the best speed you'll find in a 4F (four seats, four cylinder, fixed gear, fixed prop) airplane, but they are a bit pricey. The Cheetahs, if you can find one, don't perform quite as well, but they should certainly be considered.
 
morleyz said:
Maybe I'm confused by this thread, but are you 20 hours into PPL training or 20 hours with your cert?
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Only 20 hours into my training. I've been saving for this for a while (getting a plane and pilot's license).
 
Half Fast said:
See, @Reuben98 ? I'd bet these are planes that aren't on your radar. You're doing the right thing by asking; just be patient and learn your options.


As @schmookeeg and I have pointed out several times, the Beech Mice (Musketeer family) are sleepers in the market, especially the ones with 180 or 200 hp, and can be excellent buys.
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When you say 'Mice (Musketeer family)' are you referring to the musketeer itself or another? I'm not too familiar with the Beech aircraft.

Also - I have had my eye on this 172 - any thoughts on this guy? https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1998805-1966-Cessna-172H.html

Seems like a good price, as I'm guessing he/she wants to move on it because they have purchased the 182. Then again, with what others have been saying, I don't want to jump at the first deal. I do want to get it as right as possible!
 
Reuben98 said:
When you say 'Mice (Musketeer family)' are you referring to the musketeer itself or another? I'm not too familiar with the Beech aircraft.
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Or a Sundowner. There may be another 'model name' or two, but I know the sundowner is basically a Musketeer with an extra door. There might be a retract version of the musketeer?
 
Welcome!

Your kids will grow. Your future may or may not involve flying 4 up with bags. I would avoid buying capability today based on aspirations or assumptions about tomorrow.

A Cherokee 180 is a good choice, though the legroom of a Challenger or Archer would be kinder to your rear seat occupants. Start with that and then reevaluate in 5 years and see if you want to step up to a 182/Comanche/Commander?
 
The comments above about renting or joining a flying club are good advice, as long as those are options in your area. I more or less had to buy a plane in order to use it, and it worked out fine. The transaction costs can bite you if you buy the wrong plane, pay for a prebuy inspection, pay for a check-out in it, do a couple of catch-up annuals, generally feed and care for the thing, and then realize that you can't really use it for your mission. That's why renting and flying clubs are good: They let you study and understand your mission while amortizing those other costs, and then when you realize your mission is best covered by a PA-32 or C210, you don't have to unload a PA-28 or 172 and eat the $20,000 you invested in it.

The thing about the PA-28 and 172 is that, among planes that can actually perform reasonable owner-flown GA missions, they are the easiest to own and, later, to sell. If your mission is trying to figure out what your real mission is, they're hard to beat. My first plane was a Piper Arrow, which I bought shortly after finishing my PPL and sold after putting almost 400 hours on it. Those 400 hours taught me a lot about my mission, about how to own an airplane, and about the playing field of compromises that all aircraft represent.
 
Reuben98 said:
When you say 'Mice (Musketeer family)' are you referring to the musketeer itself or another? I'm not too familiar with the Beech aircraft.
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The Beech Musketeers are often referred to as "Mousketeers." There are many variants of the small Beeches that derived from the original Musketeer, first introduced in 1962. My personal plane is a 1969 "Musketeer Custom III," or B23, and it has a 180hp Lycoming. There are also the Sport, the Super III, the Sierra (retractable gear), the Sundowner, etc. Wikipedia lists 14 versions of the plane.

I don't know enough about 172s to comment on that listing. I'll just mention that civilized pilots, those with a modicum of breeding and good taste (not to mention common sense), prefer low-wing aircraft.
 
Reuben98 said:
Hello all! New here. I am 20 hours into my PPL and looking to get my own airplane. Budget is ideally around 70k max to leave more than enough for potential repairs etc. I am also looking to be able to fly with my family. I'm 165 lbs, she's 135 lbs and we have two kids; 4 and 2 year old - so weight shouldn't

I originally wanted a 172 but I have done my training so far in a Warrior and now I like the low wing.

I have come across this listing: https://indyairsales.com/current-inventory/aircraft/1960s-piper-cherokee-180-garmin-king-avionics/

Can you guys help let me know your thoughts? This would be my first purchase so I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this (or pointing me in a different direction...Mooney or other?)

Thanks!
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Some random thoughts re owning

Nothing, absolutely nothing educates pilots about owning an airplane like owning an airplane. The joys, the tears, the $$$$. I imagine it's a little like having children (I've never been married, so no kids, so what do I know?) How good are you at learning from the mistakes and experiences of others?

No matter how well equipped the plane is when you buy it, you will find some "upgrades" you will want, some gizmo, some tech... unless you are a really frugal yankee. And you might learn to hate the phrase "ya know while you are it, you oughta..."

I was fortunate to have a good friend with an airplane to help me learn stuff about my own airplane, and there was a really good avionics shop on the field and also access to good A&Ps and IAs on the field (however, a couple of IAs and A&Ps at KBED weren't worth spit). So many people struggle with finding a good IA and good A&Ps that actually have openings/time to take on new customers.

Hangars are nice, but can be expensive on some airports, and really really REALLY expensive at some other airports (*cough* KBED *cough*)

Check out what insurance will cost.

Best of luck.
 
I think there’s a lot of utility with the Archer/Cherokee 180 type for what you’re thinking. I’d get fixed gear.

You hear about ‘buying your last airplane first’, but one has to deal with the budget realistically. As kids grow, things can happened where everyone doesn’t go at the same time.

I’ve done 4 in a Warrior on trips, as far as Orlando for Disney World. At the time the 4 of us weighed 555 lbs, then work around that number. Nobody wants to be stuffed in a plane for 4+ hours anyway, fuel stops are half the fun.
 
Complete your training first. At this point you don't know what you don't know. After completing the PPL, you will have a little better idea about the limitations of GA aircraft, especially if you train in more than one model.

Inexperienced pilots are far too optimistic about aircraft loading. A C-172 is not a 4-person airplane if you are traveling any significant distance. To travel with 4, I would want a 6-seat aircraft that has adequate useful load. For most GA aircraft, you can typically have full seats or full fuel, but not both. If you do various loading scenarios for people plus full fuel plus baggage, plus the usual stuff you carry in an airplane (tiedowns, chocks, cleaning supplies, a few tools, etc.) you will discover that most 4-seat GA aircraft are really more suitable to 2+baggage. A 2-seat aircraft is 1+baggage or 2+a shared toothbrush. My AA-5 is great for taking max range trips for 2 and pretty much any reasonable amount of baggage and shopping loot.
 
Reuben98 said:
Only 20 hours into my training. I've been saving for this for a while (getting a plane and pilot's license).
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Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be thinking about purchasing in your situation unless some deal that is too good to be true were to fall in your lap. At that budget, I would (again in my opinion) expect there to be zero airplanes you would want to buy that could meet your stated mission. In this ridiculous market, you might be able to find an early 70s airframe with a high time engine and "original" avionics for $70k. I can't even imagine being still in training and thinking about sticking my family in the seats with me in one of those options.

Also, storage, maintenance, insurance, gas, oil, cleaning supplies, etc. start to add up very fast. If you indeed had to save up for a "while" to get to a $70k budget family of 4 flyer, I'd keep saving and either join a club or rent. Nothing about owning an airplane is fiscally responsible.
 
Owning a plane is a very different experience than flying one, especially the first year of ownership.

Finish you PPL first, once its done, then start shopping.

(Doing things over) A club or partnership makes ownership much easier, if I was shopping before getting my PPL, I would look for that. Once you get your PPL, take your wife for a few flights, and then a trip with your kids in a rental. Do an honest assessment of if you and your wife are comfortable traveling this way (packing a family in a 172 can be stressful), then make plans accordingly.
 
NH_Moose said:
If it were me, I’d focus on renting different models and building up to taking 2+2 flying with the required headsets, intercom, procedures for a sterile cockpit comm’s in good weather.

BTW your budget won’t get you what you want ( load / range / IR capable) and then you’ll be chasing fixed costs and annuals that take money away from soccer and family vacations that will “win” every time.

You think that you’ll save money by buying but you won’t!

Some people get lucky and nothing breaks for 2-3 years and the pencil whipped “low cost” annuals did not result in a loss of control or power, but those “lucky” people are few.

Could you in the first year after purchase come up with another $8K for a proper annual and another $30K for an engine that goes south?

If the answer is no then join a club or rent don’t buy, IMO.

As the saying goes, don’t get over your skis!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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@NH_Moose nailed it.

To quote Joe Biden "Just don't" - at least not now.

Get your PPL, get your IR, get some hours in the log book first.

To be honest, a budget of $70k is not going to work. You'll put that money into the plane, it will need work at some point you can't pay for quickly. Net net, your plane money that you could have used to be in the air renting will instead be tied up in a plane you own sitting on the ramp not flying.
 
Reuben98 said:
Really? Do you know much about the plane itself?
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First off, I tell all of my clients that an airplane within driving distance is worth paying 2-4K more. If you buy airline tickets, hotel rooms, meals, and spend time getting it back, you'll spent that much extra easily on a "cheaper" airplane. So, a plane like that near you, would be a good thing to look for.

Yeah, I've instructed him some in that plane, and Tri-Pacers are good, generally under-valued aircraft and they can carry more and are slightly faster than most 172s. Mainly, it depends on what you can stomach and how nice of a plane you want to spend money on.
 
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