Thoughts for first plane?

[RyanShort1]

To be honest, a budget of $70k is not going to work. You'll put that money into the plane, it will need work at some point you can't pay for quickly. Net net, your plane money that you could have used to be in the air renting will instead be tied up in a plane you own sitting on the ramp not flying.

It depends. I could probably make it work on a budget of 50K... as long as I had enough money to spend on flying it and hangaring it afterwards. There are a lot of variables.

 

[Half Fast]

For most GA aircraft, you can typically have full seats or full fuel, but not both.

If I could fill both the seats and the tanks, I’d want bigger tanks.

What matters isn’t filling both, it’s how much fuel range you have with the seats filled (plus bags). Bear in mind that you can throttle back a little and get more range.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

OP --
It's good that you have financial discipline and are setting a hard max for the purchase price while anticipating maintenance expenses after the buy (completely inevitable). It's also a good sign that you're open to choosing to rent instead based on what you learn from people here.

Unlike others I'm going to take the position that buying is not a bad idea, but ONLY if you KNOW you are going to fly A LOT. Then the economics and schedule flexibility combined will mentally pencil out in favor of ownership (IMHO).

But I also want to say that others are not speaking in hyperbole when they suggest that ownership has its own learning curve, and that when you're brand new to aviation and buying an aircraft you are at the worst possible spot on that curve. Not only from a mission POV "what kind of flying will I actually do?" (and thus: what kind of plane fits best), but from a maintenance and general ownership POV. It's difficult to know which questions to ask when buying unless you invest a lot of time preparing for ownership and learning from people about the nuances of particular makes/models/etc.

I'm also going to be a contrarian in suggesting that it doesn't really matter whether you get a C172, Cherokee 180, Grumman, ... Whatever popular airframe you get you're going to find a way to make it work. Each will have its own advantages and limitations, but regardless when you're sitting in your own bird you're going to think it's the greatest thing in the whole wide world. Until your first annual comes due... Once you live through that first annual (or second at the latest), you may have other, less charitable adjectives to describe your aircraft. Owning is expensive. And owning certified aircraft is almost always a particularly heinous form of financial self-torture. There's pretty much no way around it unless you can work on it yourself.

That said, I was you... 5 years ago almost to the day. I bought a plane with ink still wet on my PPL. It's been more expensive than I imagined at the outset but it's been a blast. If I knew then how things would play out, I still would have bought -- no question. Buying enabled me to do all kinds of trips that wouldn't have been possible if I'd had to negotiate time on a schedule with other renters.

 

[Flyhound]

I'm on my 5th plane. I've owned both high and low winged birds and have enjoyed both. I've changed planes as my needs/desires shifted and I've always made money on the planes I've bought and sold. My current plane will be the exception to that rule. I had to replace the engine and the cost of the new powerplant basically eliminates any chance of selling the plane at a profit. So, my perspective is to buy a plane that meets your budget and desires now with the expectation that you might replace it with a completely different kind of plane later as your interests shift over time. My first plane was Grumman Traveler that I owned with a partner. My second plane was a Pitts S2A that I shared with 9 other pilots. That was a radical change, but my interests had shifted that far. No aerobatic planes were available to rent, but lots of different X/C planes were available on the rental market. My 3rd plane was a Mooney M20E as my interests shifted from acro to fast cross country flying and IFR work. My next plane was a C-182 with a Texas Skyways engine conversion. I used that plane to haul kids to college and for medium range X/C trips with my wife. I now fly a Maule because my interests have shifted to backcountry flying and airplane camping. Embrace change as it comes along - it keeps life interesting. Don't let the fear of future change prevent you from making an aircraft purchase that meets your current needs.

 

[Rcmutz]

Thank you all, this is extremely helpful. I've always wanted to own so this part isn't new, however I probably am jumping too early like some of you have said. We have our own service business that is rapidly expanding on the East Coast so I will most likely want to fly for sales visits that will also turn into pleasure sight seeing trips afterwards. I actually did very much like the commanche but thought that would be too much plane for me to own as a first timer. For additional info, the budget range I had was a cash purchase so maybe I need to look higher and just finance. I was definitely thinking of waiting and trying to find a good deal...which it seems like that Cherokee 180 might not be seeing as no one has said anything about it .

Most people can afford to buy more airplane than that can afford to own. As others have said, know your mission and ease into ownership to learn. A simple fixed gear airplane like the 180 or 172 is the way to start. Even better is a club where you can “volunteer” to be part of the leadership. I was a treasurer for 12 years in a club with 3 aircraft and 40 members, 15 who actually flew routinely. Learned a lot about airplane ownership before buying my first airplane. Good luck.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Well, since nobody has said it yet:

The correct answer is "Bonanza". In fact, the correct answer is always "Bonanza".

Lots of plane for the price, parts widely available, A&Ps who know them are reasonably common, and the IO-470 is a very reliable, available mill.

Only real downside is insurance costs. A low-time pilot getting into a high power complex retract is going to "feel the love" from their insurance agent for at least a year or two.

Now, for the more serious points to consider:

Ask your wife. Take her flying. What does she care about? My wife has "approved" an upgrade to something pressurized, with a full parachute, or both. This is not because she wants me to spend more money.....

Next, do you intend to fly distances that will push you to get an instrument rating? If so, find an IFR certified plane to buy, then train and test in your own IFR plane. Doing the instrument training in the plane you'll be flying is a major safety factor. [I recently got the IR in my Bonanza, and I use it regularly.]

 

[Half Fast]

The correct answer is "Bonanza". In fact, the correcr answer is always "Bonanza".

Unless, of course, you're a doctor. Not recommended at all for doctors.

In the Beech Aero Club, we consider the Bonanzas (introduced in 1947) to be the prototypes for our Musketeers (introduced in 1962). The Musketeers correct some of the problems with the Bonanza, like the silly-looking forked tail, and prevent the gear-up landings that plague Bonanzas by welding the gear firmly in the "Down" position.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Unless, of course, you're a doctor. Not recommended at all for doctors.

In the Beech Aero Club, we consider the Bonanzas (introduced in 1947) to be the prototypes for our Musketeers (introduced in 1962). The Musketeers correct some of the problems with the Bonanza, like the silly-looking forked tail, and prevent the gear-up landings that plague Bonanzas by welding the gear firmly in the "Down" positi

Fixed gear and three-element empennages are such a drag.....

But yes! We need to protect the Bonanzas from doctors!

 

[Reuben98]

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be thinking about purchasing in your situation unless some deal that is too good to be true were to fall in your lap. At that budget, I would (again in my opinion) expect there to be zero airplanes you would want to buy that could meet your stated mission. In this ridiculous market, you might be able to find an early 70s airframe with a high time engine and "original" avionics for $70k. I can't even imagine being still in training and thinking about sticking my family in the seats with me in one of those options.

Also, storage, maintenance, insurance, gas, oil, cleaning supplies, etc. start to add up very fast. If you indeed had to save up for a "while" to get to a $70k budget family of 4 flyer, I'd keep saving and either join a club or rent. Nothing about owning an airplane is fiscally responsible.

Helpful post here thanks - For more info, saving for a while included buying our house so there was a few savings going on at once (house was priority for some reason??). We got the house back in Nov of 2019 so I was able to focus more on savings for 'extra circular things'.

Totally agree with the safety part there in your comment.

 

[Reuben98]

You guys have all been extremely helpful. Blown away by the amount of comments, so thank you all! Ran over this thread with my wife and decided to hold unless an amazing deal comes up. I'd love to find one locally where I know the owner because I don't want my first plane to ruin my experience. Going to keep my head down and get my PPL and IR - will rent/look at multiple models before deciding on what to get (maybe increase my range). Glad I came across this site!

 

[sarangan]

Hello all! New here. I am 20 hours into my PPL and looking to get my own airplane. Budget is ideally around 70k max to leave more than enough for potential repairs etc. I am also looking to be able to fly with my family. I'm 165 lbs, she's 135 lbs and we have two kids; 4 and 2 year old - so weight shouldn't

I originally wanted a 172 but I have done my training so far in a Warrior and now I like the low wing.

I have come across this listing: https://indyairsales.com/current-inventory/aircraft/1960s-piper-cherokee-180-garmin-king-avionics/

Can you guys help let me know your thoughts? This would be my first purchase so I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this (or pointing me in a different direction...Mooney or other?)

Thanks!

As others have said, join a club first. There’s a lot you don’t know yet, and ownership can bring expensive surprises. Even small maintenance issues can turn into major bills - our club’s 182 developed a minor brake fluid leak that ended up costing a staggering $15,000 to fix. Once you’ve flown the club airplane extensively and understand the realities of operating costs, then you can start thinking seriously about ownership.

 

[chemgeek]

If I could fill both the seats and the tanks, I’d want bigger tanks.

What matters isn’t filling both, it’s how much fuel range you have with the seats filled (plus bags). Bear in mind that you can throttle back a little and get more range.

For many light singles, you often need full or nearly full tanks to get reasonable range + reserves. This varies slightly depending on the model. To make traveling useful, you need around 4 hours range with the anticipated load. My plane is 4+30 with the tanks full at a reasonable cruise speed, which is how I normally fly it IFR. 3 + luggage is definitely overweight at that fuel loading, and off loading a half-hour of fuel only gains 24 lb of useful load. You can certainly stretch range a bit by throttling back. In my plane pulling back 250 rpm buys about 40-60 nm depending on the headwind component. (It's painful, though, especially in headwinds.)

 

[chemgeek]

Hello all! New here. I am 20 hours into my PPL and looking to get my own airplane. Budget is ideally around 70k max to leave more than enough for potential repairs etc.

The purchase price of the airplane is the least of your worries, financially. It's a fixed cost you are likely to largely recover when you sell the plane. However, you CAN plan on spending about 20-30% of the purchase cost on fixing deferred maintenance from the prior owner over the first two years of ownership. You will also face costs of upgrading avionics as well, depending on what came with the aircraft (which is not much if you got a "deal"). If you plan on flying IFR (recommended, long term, for safety) your avionics upgrades will take on more urgency. Then there are the additional fixed costs of hangar/tie down & insurance, transponder and/or altimeter checks, and the variable costs of annual inspection and routine unscheduled repairs. Not counting avionics or other upgrades (engine/propeller/lighting, etc.), you can typically count on spending something like 4X fuel for typical operational costs. If you can't sustain this level of financial support, you may find ownership taxing. The good news is that the more crap you fix, the less it costs to maintain it. Since overhauling my engine and upgrading my avionics, my annual engine and avionics maintenance bills have plummeted. But of course those upgrades cost $$$$. You pay now, or pay later for the privilege of lower maintenance costs.

 

[4RNB]

I'll advocate for getting a plane that is good enough for now. Ignore all factors for the best plane, just get one that kind of fits the bill and gives you some wiggle room. you are too green to make the best decision, just do good enough. You are at a stage where you should not take your kids up, maybe not your wife. A 2 seater can take them up one at a time. Agonize more over the 2nd plane. Get your IFR, so get a plane IFR capable.

My first was a 172. I spent way too much on it, got most of it back. I did too much to the plane. A lot of wasted time with shops on upgrades.
I now own an RV10 and am building the same.

Get the gear/avionics you want or need now, DO NOT plan on upgrading. Good advice I now own...

I'll argue for experimental, perhaps in the Vans RV series. Highly capable, mostly affordable, more can be done by owner, perhaps you get the LSRI or LSRM and save money as you learn. Great fuel burn, many are faster and/or newer than what you can get certified. If you get any old Vans RV then you can build a four seater like the 10 and have all the family involved.

 

[Half Fast]

For many light singles, you often need full or nearly full tanks to get reasonable range + reserves. This varies slightly depending on the model. To make traveling useful, you need around 4 hours range with the anticipated load. My plane is 4+30 with the tanks full at a reasonable cruise speed, which is how I normally fly it IFR. 3 + luggage is definitely overweight at that fuel loading, and off loading a half-hour of fuel only gains 24 lb of useful load. You can certainly stretch range a bit by throttling back. In my plane pulling back 250 rpm buys about 40-60 nm depending on the headwind component. (It's painful, though, especially in headwinds.)

I'm sure that's true for many small singles, but not all. Consider....

Full fuel in my baby Beech is 60 gallons, and range at max cruise (75% power), 7500', is 4.8 hours, 685 miles (with reserve). If I only fill to the slots, that's 40 gallons (saving 120lbs) with a range of 2.9 hours, 420 miles. Throttling back to 55% gives 4.1 hours and 500 miles.

That means, at the limit, I can carry four 165lb people plus 100lbs of bags 500 miles if I'm willing to fly for 4 hours. More typically I don't want to fly more than 3 hours at a stretch (no autopilot; I'm hand flying), so I'd probably choose to fly at 75% power and make 420 miles, and I'd likely back off a little for extra reserve.

Carrying four people and bags on a 750 mile trip with one fuel stop doesn't sound too bad, especially compared to driving instead.

That seems like useful performance to me, but you may want to go farther/faster.

 

[traumamed]

Get the gear/avionics you want or need now, DO NOT plan on upgrading. Good advice I now own...

Yeah this. Sure, modern high-end panels do command a premium in the market, BUT -

1- That premium is usually still less than it cost to put the stuff into the plane in the first place.

2A- That premium comes inclusive of not having to fly the plane with crummy avionics while you wait a year for your shop appointment;
2B- not having to endure 1-2 months (or more) of downtime without your plane during the install; and
2C- not having to go through the inevitable fun of 2-3 return trips to the avionics shop because the GPS won't stay connected and the autopilot won't stop hunting.

 

[Bob Noel]

don't the forget the probability that this "modern high-end" panel might not be the one you want.

 

[Half Fast]

...and that the panel will only be "modern" for about 20 minutes.

 

[Gary Ward]

When I was about halfway through training, a older pilot friend offered one of his 172s to fly because he lost his medical. He had planned to get it back but it never happened. He owned 5 aircraft.
The first offer I didn't take him up on it because I was still training. Then when I did get my license I saw him again and I agreed to go look at it and taxi it around his drag strip. I was nervous flying a unknown plane that mostly sat for 10 years prior. Turned out that it was in pretty good shape.
He had rented a hangar at a nearby airport so it would be easier for other pilots to fly it but it sat empty for half a year until I flew it over there and put it in the hangar for the first time.
I flew it for 6 months almost everyday and helped do a annual with his long time AP/IA. I got to know the plane before I bought it from him. I was very lucky.
I do all my own maintenance/repairs on it now as I have 2 AP/IA that I work under.
I still have it since 2018...my wife and hangar neighbor, best friend keep urging me to find a 182. So far I have resisted.
My 172 has been updated all the way around so I am hanging onto it for a while longer.
Here it was, my first day at this airport, didn't even know how to open the hangar door.

Me taxing down the dragstrip for my first flight in it. Vacuum pump went out this flight.

 

[Crashnburn]

OP, focus on finishing your certificate first. Learning to fly does not need to be complicated by learning to own.

A great first ownership opportunity is an equity club or partnership. Your budget will go much further and availability can he similar to sole ownership. You will want to complete your due diligence on the financials and the plane, but it’s a much better way to learn the ins/outs of ownership while also limiting your exposure.

Agree. At least solo before you consider owning a plane. Your kids will grow, and you might have more. I'd say a 145 HP Skyhawk is a bit under powered, but you can get 180 HP conversions done. If you do, you'll never want to go back.

 

[Gary Ward]

When I was about halfway through training, a older pilot friend offered one of his 172s to fly because he lost his medical. He had planned to get it back but it never happened. He owned 5 aircraft.
The first offer I didn't take him up on it because I was still training. Then when I did get my license I saw him again and I agreed to go look at it and taxi it around his drag strip. I was nervous flying a unknown plane that mostly sat for 10 years prior. Turned out that it was in pretty good shape.
He had rented a hangar at a nearby airport so it would be easier for other pilots to fly it but it sat empty for half a year until I flew it over there and put it in the hangar for the first time.
I flew it for 6 months almost everyday and helped do a annual with his long time AP/IA. I got to know the plane before I bought it from him. I was very lucky.
I do all my own repairs on it now as I have 2 AP/IA that I work under.

I still have it since 2018...my wife and hangar neighbor, best friend keep urging me to find a 182. So far I have resisted.
My 172 has been updated all the way around so I am hanging onto it for a while longer.
Here it was, my first day at this airport, didn't even know how to open the hangar door.

Me taxing down the dragstrip for my first flight in it. Vacuum pump went out this flight.

The more interesting story about this aircraft, was it was tied down under a sun shade at this very airport in 1990 when a tornado hit the airport. This aircraft was one of 40 that were damaged or lost.
My late friend bought it from the insurance company with about 275 hours on it. He had it rebuilt.
When I started flying it in 2018 it had 1416 hrs on it.
I have flown it 1400+ hrs since then.

 

[MIFlyer]

Well, since nobody has said it yet:

The correct answer is "Bonanza". In fact, the correct answer is always "Bonanza".

Lots of plane for the price, parts widely available, A&Ps who know them are reasonably common, and the IO-470 is a very reliable, available mill.

Only real downside is insurance costs. A low-time pilot getting into a high power complex retract is going to "feel the love" from their insurance agent for at least a year or two.

Now, for the more serious points to consider:

Ask your wife. Take her flying. What does she care about? My wife has "approved" an upgrade to something pressurized, with a full parachute, or both. This is not because she wants me to spend more money.....

Next, do you intend to fly distances that will push you to get an instrument rating? If so, find an IFR certified plane to buy, then train and test in your own IFR plane. Doing the instrument training in the plane you'll be flying is a major safety factor. [I recently got the IR in my Bonanza, and I use it regularly.]

I was about 200 hours VFR only when I got my C35 last year. Fly the crap out of it the first year, and your year 2 insurance will be way lower after Time in Type. It's almost worth a renter policy and puttting 25 hours in retract and THEN buying the plane.

My journey was renting 172s during training, then joined an equity flying club with 172/182 for about 6 years, then bought an early Bonanza.

Yes, it's a whole new domain of stuff to learn as an owner, but I LOVE it.

 

[WJG-GMT-RootBeer]

Welcome!

Your kids will grow. Your future may or may not involve flying 4 up with bags. I would avoid buying capability today based on aspirations or assumptions about tomorrow.

A Cherokee 180 is a good choice, though the legroom of a Challenger or Archer would be kinder to your rear seat occupants. Start with that and then reevaluate in 5 years and see if you want to step up to a 182/Comanche/Commander?

Solid advice. We bought a Piper Warrior II and flew it for probably 600 hours beyond TBO. Very little issues with it other than the crappy Collins 251/351 radios. X wife got her PPL in it. Incredibly docile. All that being said, if you can swing a Dakota or 235---go for it. I doubt you'd ever regret the additional UL and speed.

 

[Dana]

A Piper Tri-Pacer.

FIFY.