Thinking about building a reasonable 4-seater. Any recommendations?

Rcmutz said:
In the time it takes to build an E-AB, you could get your AnP, buy a legacy airplane, maintain it yourself, and use the AnP license to moonlight and earn the money for all the avionics you wish to put in your legacy plane.
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Or buy an already built experimental and be able to do the condition inspection on any experimental instead of just one. I like that idea.
 
donjohnston said:
I can get a starter for an IO550 at AutoZone???

I had no idea! :dunno:
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Starters are definitely more challenging than alternators. I can source alternators in the $30 range for 4 cyl lycomings, but so far I've been unsuccessful at cobbling together an inexpensive starter. I'd be interested to hear what tractor supply has to offer.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Nobody mentioned a specific engine type, but for that particular model I'm sure we could find something that works at Tractor Supply.
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Okay.

So where is there an AutoZone that has an alternator, starter and fuel pump for my E-AB aircraft?
 
Once youre tired of unobtainium parts for certified aircraft engines, you can embrace auto conversions and then get all of your consumables at Autozone etc.
 
moparrob66 said:
Once youre tired of unobtainium parts for certified aircraft engines, you can embrace auto conversions and then get all of your consumables at Autozone etc.
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How's that working out for you?

Nauga,
and his vanilla O-320.
 
I'll let you know once its flying so you can say "Told you so!"
 
donjohnston said:
Okay.

So where is there an AutoZone that has an alternator, starter and fuel pump for my E-AB aircraft?
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Go to their website, enter your zip code and you'll find one within 10 miles.
As my hangar neighbor who owns an RV-4 figured out when he took his failed alternator there and they were able to find a perfect replacement for a fifth of the cost.
If your original starter becomes unobtanium (or is priced as if made out of gold), I'm sure an adapter plate can be made to fit an off the shelf automotive unit, even if the original tractor starter that Lycoming selected isn't available anymore in the automotive world.
We're not talking here about finding a custom 200A starter-generator for a PT6 turboshaft, I do expect that part to have been an off the shelf unit back in the day.
And if your E-AB has an auto engine conversion, it's that much easier to find spares at your local auto parts store.
 
Stewartb said:
Cyclone kits are available again. I think the build budget is $600-700K and insurance will break the bank after that. I’ll keep my Skywagon!
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Really? Show me a cyclone kit…
 
Stewartb said:
I presume your cynicism is supposed to imply you know something? Do you have anything to add to the topic?
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Please send me a link to the cyclone plane company that has a kit for sale.
 
4RNB said:
Please send me a link to the cyclone plane company that has a kit for sale.
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www.bushliner.com

Bushliner Aircraft | New-Production Utility Aircraft

Fixed-wing aircraft for a lead-free future. Built for the world ahead.
www.bushliner.com www.bushliner.com

Bushliner bought the kit mfgr rights from St. Just, who had marketed it for many years. This new version has a factory assist build option. $843K. Cool plane but that’s serious money!
 
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Stewartb said:
www.bushliner.com

Bushliner Aircraft | New-Production Utility Aircraft

Fixed-wing aircraft for a lead-free future. Built for the world ahead.
www.bushliner.com www.bushliner.com

Bushliner bought the kit mfgr rights from St. Just, who had marketed it for many years. This new version has a factory assist build option. $843K. Cool plane but that’s serious money!
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I’d rather have the new CompAir 6.2 than that—more plane for less coin.
 
tsts4 said:
I’d rather have the new CompAir 6.2 than that—more plane for less coin.
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Then that’s what you should do. Let us know when it’s finished. Me? I have the airplanes I want. Last spring I told my wife I needed a project and was itching to build another airplane. She told me I had enough airplanes and asked me to build her a Sprinter van. I did, and it turned out great. Life is short. Talk is cheap. Building things is fun!
 

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Stewartb said:
Then that’s what you should do. Let us know when it’s finished. Me? I have the airplanes I want. Last spring I told my wife I needed a project and was itching to build another airplane. She told me I had enough airplanes and asked me to build her a Sprinter van. I did, and it turned out great. Life is short. Talk is cheap. Building things is fun!
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I actually seriously considered selling my RV-10 and building the piston powered version for a number of reasons. I’ve met the company owner and have been to their facilities a number of times. Unfortunately even with selling I’d need more money than I have at my disposal so it’s not in the cards (at least not for the foreseeable future as I’m still trying to rebuild my house after Hurricane Helene). I can still dream though……
 
There's the RAI Foxtrot. I sat in one many years ago. It was barely wide enough for me but it was significantly lacking head room. I'm 6'3 with a long torso.
 
Rcmutz said:
In the time it takes to build an E-AB, you could get your AnP, buy a legacy airplane, maintain it yourself, and use the AnP license to moonlight and earn the money for all the avionics you wish to put in your legacy plane.
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I think this is a bit of an over generalization. Sure kits take a large commitment of time, money, and work. However, it is possible to build fairly quickly if you are persistent and have the funds to ensure you have all kit components available and ready whenever you need them. Constantly having to stop building and wait for random parts or sub assemblies can add a lot of time. When I built my CH640, I was working full time, had 3 young kids, and a pretty full life. I basically would put the kids to bed, then work 4 or so hours in the garage every night, 7 days a week. I completed the plane (from a quickbuild kit) in about 15 months, including all painting, interior finish work etc. When I first flew it after 15 months, it was "completed". It was a lot of work, but it went pretty quickly. I understand a lot of people don't want to make that kind of time commitment and the sacrifices that come along with it, but it is very possible to finish a kit in a year or year and a half. I don't know how long it takes to get an A&P. However I'm sure it takes years, if you have the opportunity for pretty steady work, to gain the knowledge and experience you get building a complete aircraft.
 
Stevea621j said:
When I built my CH640, I was working full time, had 3 young kids, and a pretty full life.
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Can you share more details about your build, please? Engine, equipment, performance, gotchas? What was your final build cost, if you don't mind sharing it?
It's a shame Zenith isn't offering the 640 anymore, although they hinted it might come back once MOSAIC goes through. If they revive it, it might be worth considering.
 
Option 1 - If you want the fun of building, then build.

Option 2 - If you want the fun of flying, then buy a plane.

Think of it this way. Imagine after 6 years of building and getting it flying, you sell it the next day and start on another plane. If this sounds painful and insane, then go with Option 2.
 
donjohnston said:
Define "reasonable".

If you have someone nearby who has built one before and can offer guidance and assistance, that will reduce the build time significantly. I spent 7 years building my Velocity and if I did it again, I could get it done in two years.
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Was any part of your build done at the factory or quickbuild?
 
Will Kumley said:
Was any part of your build done at the factory or quickbuild?
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I did the quickbuild option. So the wings and canard were already assembled. But the factory doesn't do the best job of finishing the wings so I sanded them back down to the glass and refilled them.

I also did a 2 week "headstart" program at the factory when I began the build.
 
FORANE said:
Starters are definitely more challenging than alternators. I can source alternators in the $30 range for 4 cyl lycomings, but so far I've been unsuccessful at cobbling together an inexpensive starter. I'd be interested to hear what tractor supply has to offer.
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mark landoll use to make a bracket to mount a 280z starter on a 320/360. they have been out of production for years, however, it was a pretty simple bracket. I have run one for over 20 years. next time i have it off, maybe its time to make a drawing of it so people could make their own.
 
Bd-4 on barnstormers. Wonder if he'd trade for a 172...
 
I'm daydreaming about building one of those Zenith 750 SDs today. I like the idea of building a plane, but not the idea of bucking a million rivets. I'll pull them all day, though. Also all of my friends seem to be doing backcountry stuff and my current plane can only join them once at most of these gravel bars they visit. :D

Is there ever a limit to a builder's liability? I'm trying to figure out how I would ever sell a thing I built without also sending my estate into peril. I suppose the Zenith is cheap enough you could just amortize it down to zero. Or park it and forget about it and be one of "those" sad airport stories.

I wish someone made a rotax 916 FWF kit for the thing. That might punch a hole in my checkbook.
 
Build an RV 12 (pulled rivets) and put tundra tires on it!
 
schmookeeg said:
Is there ever a limit to a builder's liability? I'm trying to figure out how I would ever sell a thing I built without also sending my estate into peril. I suppose the Zenith is cheap enough you could just amortize it down to zero. Or park it and forget about it and be one of "those" sad airport stories.
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Theoretically no. However, as most builders don't have deep pockets the litigation risk, while not zero, is still pretty low.
 
schmookeeg said:
I'm daydreaming about building one of those Zenith 750 SDs today. I like the idea of building a plane, but not the idea of bucking a million rivets. I'll pull them all day, though. Also all of my friends seem to be doing backcountry stuff and my current plane can only join them once at most of these gravel bars they visit. :D

Is there ever a limit to a builder's liability? I'm trying to figure out how I would ever sell a thing I built without also sending my estate into peril. I suppose the Zenith is cheap enough you could just amortize it down to zero. Or park it and forget about it and be one of "those" sad airport stories.

I wish someone made a rotax 916 FWF kit for the thing. That might punch a hole in my checkbook.
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Sling High Wing with factory build assist. Pulled rivets, Rotax 916, about as liability limiting as you’ll get.
 
TCABM said:
Sling High Wing with factory build assist. Pulled rivets, Rotax 916, about as liability limiting as you’ll get.
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Interesting looking thing. Not a price to be found on that glitzy website. Is the factory assist in ZA? :)
 
schmookeeg said:
Interesting looking thing. Not a price to be found on that glitzy website. Is the factory assist in ZA? :)
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Nope. Torrance, CA at the Sling Pilot Academy facility. I came across the price list somewhere, I’ll dig it up. I seem to recall with the quick build kit and builder assistance, all in was around 250 AMUs.
 
I faced same delima, ...wanted 4 seater but EXP category, and didn't want a 5 year build ...im American, damn it, and want it now! I ended up buying a well enjoyed c172 with worn out engine and designed a V8 GM engine conversion for it. works good, last long, and cheap to fly @about $23/hr....no real complaints. Maybe look for a c182 with bad engine or other issues you can buy cheap and do the same. whole lot cheaper and quicker than a kit.
 
@AlphaPilotFlyer I know you were never able to get that V8 conversion through the FAA, but did you consider offering it as a service for individuals willing to convert to Experimental Exhibition or as a package for EA-B kits?
 
Yes! This! If you cant make any money on selling kits or parts, sell plans? Share the recipe!
 
that was original plan, sell FWF kits for old airplanes and convert to experimental..... but FAA said there is policy to prevent this (it's from 1950s....) but not regulation , but it was clear they would do what ever they could to stop any such project. there's more details about this on www.corsairv8.com

too bad really, it would have open up a lot more opportunity for pilots to train and build time. After almost 5 years, we concluded when it comes to GA, the FAA is a corrupt organization at its leadership....but we got lots of great help from lower levels that wanted to see us succeed.
may b at Oshkosh this, stop by.

our entire c172 just would be between $25-30k with core exchange... hourly cost from about $75)hr to about $22/hr with same aircraft....parts costs about 60,% less ....it would have made a lot of sense especially when many older airframes were being scrapped at TBO or requiring engine overhaul.....either way. less than most exp kits

as far as plans go, we did put a lot on line initially but when getting insurance were told needed to take it down as we would be sued if someone crashed using our suggestions or plans. regardless of any disclaimers.

so, hope this answers your questions... but short answer yes, but faa leadership at top levels made it more than difficult.
 
Are there reduced liability risks if you market your conversion to the E-AB folks and let the Certified-Experimental-Exhibition folks read between the lines at their own risk? It seems like you have a great thing going, more appealing to me than the Viking engines. Its a perfect fit for the larger EABs like RV-10 etc. and your kit, components, FWF or even just the recipe would be pretty popular.
 
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