Tear Drop Entry To Pattern

[GoFly]

It appears to be that time again ...

no it isn’t

 

[dmspilot]

Umm... Yes. So again, what's you're point about Fig 4-3-2 which DOES NOT SHOW and HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH Midfield Overhead Entry to the Pattern.

If you're confusion is that you think it is showing the Midfield Overhead Entry down at the Crosswind portion of the standard Pattern, it is NOT. That drawing is the basic diagram that has been around forever that shows the 45 degree entry to the Standard Pattern, the recommended ways to leave the Pattern and the basic parts of the Pattern. It does not show the Midfield Overhead Entry.

You are confused. He isn't talking about the overhead entry. He's talking about the 45 degree entry, which is supposed to enter the downwind at the midpoint of the runway. The AiM drawing is incorrect.

 

[Daleandee]

no it isn’t

Yes it tis!

 

[flyingron]

You must have missed my link in post 102: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/150_5340_5d.pdf

I didn't miss anything. THere's nothing in that AC that contradicts what I said.
Here's an example. Friday Harbor (KFHR) has Right Traffic to BOTH runways. Here's the segmented circle....



The AIM implies you should turn left on departure from either runway.

 

[dtuuri]

I didn't miss anything. THere's nothing in that AC that contradicts what I said.
Here's an example. Friday Harbor (KFHR) has Right Traffic to BOTH runways. Here's the segmented circle....

View attachment 145859

The AIM implies you should turn left on departure from either runway.

Are you saying I don't understand the meaning of these words from the AC on segmented circles?

"(6) Right-Turn Indicators. The use of the segmented circle airport marker system is encouraged. Only the “L” shaped indicators, formed by using the landing strip and traffic pattern indicators referred to above, are required for compliance with Title 14 CFR part 91, General Operating And Flight Rules, AND ARE USED ONLY ON RUNWAYS USING RIGHT-HAND TRAFFIC PATTERNS."​

​

The "L" shaped indicators are only used on right-hand patterns, so if you make a left-hand pattern upon departure, you will be making a left-hand arrival contrary to the other half of the pair at the approach end of the runway. If that airport makes sense to you, maybe you can build this:

​

 

[MauleSkinner]

If that airport makes sense to you, maybe you can build this:

You’re comparing something simple like violating the laws of space and time with something complex like “left or right”?

 

[ColinD]

I think someone needs to construct an enormous Klein bottle, then we can send a brave aviator into its mouth to test some theories.

 

[Half Fast]

I think someone needs to construct an enormous Klein bottle, then we can send a brave aviator into its mouth to test some theories.

Build it right over a mobius landing strip....

 

[ColinD]

Position the whole mess in the Bermuda Triangle.

 

[flyingron]

Are you saying I don't understand the meaning of these words from the AC on segmented circles?

"(6) Right-Turn Indicators. The use of the segmented circle airport marker system is encouraged. Only the “L” shaped indicators, formed by using the landing strip and traffic pattern indicators referred to above, are required for compliance with Title 14 CFR part 91, General Operating And Flight Rules, AND ARE USED ONLY ON RUNWAYS USING RIGHT-HAND TRAFFIC PATTERNS."​

DID YOU BOTHER TO READ THE PASSAGE I QUOTED? I'll repeat myself:

Similar treatment of the indicator at the departure end of the runway will clearly indicate the direction of turn after takeoff.
In the case I reported (Friday Harbor), both runways have right traffic. The L's point in opposite directions (see the photo I posted). You do not use the departure marker for ANYTHING. Only the one on the approach end.

​

The "L" shaped indicators are only used on right-hand patterns, so if you make a left-hand pattern upon departure, you will be making a left-hand arrival contrary to the other half of the pair at the approach end of the runway. If that airport makes sense to you, maybe you can build this:

​

That statement is also incorrect at just about every airport that has one runway with right traffic. The L's both point in the SAME direction, so one of them is on the runway with left traffic. The only place where you omit the Ls is when all runways have left traffic (yet the AFH shows such an airport, but I've not found one that actually exists).

 

[chemgeek]

By the time one reads through this thread, one could have chosen one of several reasonable pattern entries, made your radio calls to let others know where you were and what you intended to do, made three touch-and-gos in the pattern, and taxied to your hangar and buttoned up.

 

[Clip4]

What do you see wrong with it, for an airport with left traffic for both runways?

There is shouldn’t be a segmented circle for this traffic pattern because there is no right traffic.

CFR § 91.126 - Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.​

(b)(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;

 

[flyingron]

There is shouldn’t be a segmented circle for this traffic pattern because there is no right traffic.

CFR § 91.126 - Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.​

(b)(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;

There's nothing wrong with the segemented circle. The L-s for runways that are all left traffic are a bit non-standard. But 91.126 doesn't say they can't be there, but the AC that talks about the construction implies you shouldn't.

 

[dtuuri]

DID YOU BOTHER TO READ THE PASSAGE I QUOTED?

Whell, there's no need to shout at me. The caps in my post are the FAA's.

I'll repeat myself:

Similar treatment of the indicator at the departure end of the runway will clearly indicate the direction of turn after takeoff.

I am quite familiar with that AIM passage and it is perfectly correct. It's telling you the flag is pointed in the same direction because it's right-hand traffic on both ends — takeoff and landing. The same flags also work for the reciprocal runway, which is standard and therefore has no flags; pretty clever on the part of the inventors, imo.

In the case I reported (Friday Harbor), both runways have right traffic.

Yes, they put the markers there inappropriately.

 

[Clip4]

There's nothing wrong with the segemented circle. The L-s for runways that are all left traffic are a bit non-standard. But 91.126 doesn't say they can't be there, but the AC that talks about the construction implies you shouldn't.

A marking present that shouldn’t adds confusion.

 

[flyingron]

A marking present that shouldn’t adds confusion.

It's not confusing to most people. Nearly every example in the books (including the AIM) that shows right traffic also shows the marker for left traffic for the reciprocal runway.

 

[dtuuri]

It's not confusing to most people. Nearly every example in the books (including the AIM) that shows right traffic also shows the marker for left traffic for the reciprocal runway.

There is no marker for left traffic as per the above-mentioned Segmented Circle AC. They are both for the right-hand pattern, which is the same track as the left-hand pattern so also work for it too. There is no provision for reversing traffic flow, just for flipping all traffic to the same side. Now, maybe there's a new idea to reverse the flow (I think it's silly, but that's just me) but it needs some official recognition and examples in the AC. Saying the AIM is wrong when it's been that way for sixty years is backwards. You should be saying Friday Harbor's proposed new non-standard traffic pattern needs FAA approval.

 

[flyingron]

There is no marker for left traffic as per the above-mentioned Segmented Circle AC. They are both for the right-hand pattern, which is the same track as the left-hand pattern so also work for it too. There is no provision for reversing traffic flow, just for flipping all traffic to the same side. Now, maybe there's a new idea to reverse the flow (I think it's silly, but that's just me) but it needs some official recognition and examples in the AC. Saying the AIM is wrong when it's been that way for sixty years is backwards. You should be saying Friday Harbor's proposed new non-standard traffic pattern needs FAA approval.

From your own AC:

That airport has left traffic for runway 36 and runway 27, and right traffic for 18 and 9. You're arguing that the L's that point clockwise shouldn't be there, but they do.

 

[dtuuri]

From your own AC:
View attachment 145895
That airport has left traffic for runway 36 and runway 27, and right traffic for 18 and 9.

Correct. All examples ever depicted by the FAA show both traffic pattern indicators pointed the same way.

You're arguing that the L's that point clockwise shouldn't be there, but they do.

I'm not saying that. The FAA says they should be there — as a part of the pair that indicates right traffic. The AIM further says they also depict right hand turns on departure, but you don't like those words.

 

[M20K]

The AIM further says they also depict right hand turns on departure, but you don't like those words.

You are correct. If there is Left Traffic and the 90 degree barb is showing that. Then, if you don't continue straight out, you'd make a Left turn in the direction of the 90 degree barb. But to be clear, this would be the barb behind you which is the one showing the pattern for the Rwy you're departing on.

Personally, I've never understood why you turn to depart from the Rwy towards the side of the Rwy most people are arriving from. So I always go straight out and continue to climb well above Pattern Altitude before turning on course.

But I still have to say, in reading your posts you gotten locked onto something that to all of us sounds backwards. I'm wondering if it is the over use of the "L" vs 90 degree barb. But the Left or Right traffic indicator I've seen on every FAA diagram are not incorrect. Also, maybe you're looking at both at the same time and it is also creating a conflict. You only look at ONE, the one for the Rwy you're landing on. The other one is really irrelevant and only good for reference to see what someone else might be doing if they're headed to the other Rwy for some reason.

 

[dtuuri]

You are correct. If there is Left Traffic and the 90 degree barb is showing that.

If there is left traffic, there is no "barb". Only for right traffic, according to https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/150_5340_5d.pdf
in large capital letters. But the right-hand pattern overlies the left-hand pattern, so both are indicated by happy coincidence.

Then, if you don't continue straight out, you'd make a Left turn in the direction of the 90 degree barb. But to be clear, this would be the barb behind you which is the one showing the pattern for the Rwy you're departing on.

Huh? Behind? The traffic pattern indicator is the leg of the "barb" 90° to the landing strip indicator (the straight-out part). There's one on each side of the segmented circle for landing and departing reference. Both refer to the right-hand pattern (some might say "clockwise"). If there isn't a right-hand pattern, then there isn't a "barb" at all

Personally, I've never understood why you turn to depart from the Rwy towards the side of the Rwy most people are arriving from. So I always go straight out and continue to climb well above Pattern Altitude before turning on course.

Who says these "barbs" have anything to do with exiting the pattern? They're for indicating the non-standard re-location of the rectangular pattern to the opposite side of the runway to avoid hazards or for noise abatement.

But I still have to say, in reading your posts you gotten locked onto something that to all of us sounds backwards. I'm wondering if it is the over use of the "L" vs 90 degree barb. But the Left or Right traffic indicator I've seen on every FAA diagram are not incorrect.

Wait. I have it backward? And everybody agrees? Now you know why I hang around this place. There's a lot of work to be done and so little time.

 

[Albany Tom]

I think the last two pages of this thread gave me spacial disorientation.

 

[Lindberg]

There's no regulatory or ther guidance to support hte requirement to yield to the 45 or that such has any preference. Yielding to traffic on downwind here is the general rule for converging (other than head-on or nearly so) traffic.

Both would be converging from that airplane's right.

 

[bonefishpete]

143 posts off my thread.
When do my residual checks start arriving?

 

[MauleSkinner]

143 posts off my thread.
When do my residual checks start arriving?

Probably about 3 days after you mail them.

 

[unsafervguy]

Or do what I do and do a 10 mi final making calls every mile. I like to start my approach with a "what runway is everyone using" followed by a "meow".

on guuuuaaaarrrrrrddddddd!

 

[unsafervguy]

I fly a RV and a warbird, i just do what ever i want wearing a flight suit and a flight helmet!