Tammie Jo Shults

Everskyward said:
Why do you think they need self-empowerment? This is 2018. Women should already know that they can become pilots, if that's what they want to do. Nothing wrong with positive reinforcement, but why single out women?
Click to expand...
Were the number of woman pilots equal to the number of male pilots, no empowerment would be needed. I cannot believe that there is something is females that makes them not want to take to the skies. That doesn’t work. It makes no more sense than saying girls can’t do math. Biologically that’s patent nonsense.

These things are societal constructs. Girls aren’t good at math because they’re told they’re not supposed to be. They aren’t pilots because they’re told they can’t do it or aren’t told they can.

I freely admit that my telling my lady students they can do these things falls wildly short of the mark. It would be far far better if a woman peer told them. But there are things about myself I neither can nor wish to change. But as it is I might be a member of the last generation to become amateur pilots. That seems to be the direction things are headed. I do all I can to forestall the inevitable, though.
 
Back in my Navy time we had a ‘purging’ of callsigns after the ‘Tailhook 91’ scandal. Luckily I never went that year, had been prior though. Since I never went in 91 I just watched the circus from the sidelines.

After tailhook, all the sexually referenced callsigns were banned from the flightsuit, and the radio frequency. Those individuals were still known by the prior names, just less so publicly.

I never worry about the corporate work environment today with sexual harassment and all the rest. I’ve seen enough up close to easily steer clear of that minefield. We had a few that came under very close scrutiny back in the day, amounted to ZERO when all was done.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Actually you provided a google search for the term "pics", you did not actually add pics to the thread which is the meaning of this: :needpics:.

So basically, you failed. Of course, you are probably used to that.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, you can’t follow instructions and your grasp of reality appears to depend on your desires, not fact. Well maybe next time you won’t ask for pictures of someone who doesn’t post their image on the internet. You sure were a sucker for a stupid link...
 
Anymouse said:
I thought she had changed her name, at the "request" of Gulfstream, but was too lazy to look it up.
Click to expand...
Yes. Seems like Gulfstream didn’t want to be associated with a pimp (or pimpette, whatever the female version is).
 
Clark1961 said:
Hmmm, you can’t follow instructions and your grasp of reality appears to depend on your desires, not fact. Well maybe next time you won’t ask for pictures of someone who doesn’t post their image on the internet. You sure were a sucker for a stupid link...
Click to expand...
I clicked it too, was pretty much what I expected, although I was a little disappointed.
 
steingar said:
Were the number of woman pilots equal to the number of male pilots, no empowerment would be needed. I cannot believe that there is something is females that makes them not want to take to the skies. That doesn’t work. It makes no more sense than saying girls can’t do math. Biologically that’s patent nonsense.

These things are societal constructs. Girls aren’t good at math because they’re told they’re not supposed to be. They aren’t pilots because they’re told they can’t do it or aren’t told they can.
Click to expand...
On the pro pilot side, have you ever considered that maybe it's not a lack of empowerment, but rather a healthy system of priorities that keeps women from being equally represented in a career that tends to set one's priorities for them?
 
steingar said:
Were the number of woman pilots equal to the number of male pilots, no empowerment would be needed. I cannot believe that there is something is females that makes them not want to take to the skies. That doesn’t work. It makes no more sense than saying girls can’t do math. Biologically that’s patent nonsense.

These things are societal constructs. Girls aren’t good at math because they’re told they’re not supposed to be. They aren’t pilots because they’re told they can’t do it or aren’t told they can.

I freely admit that my telling my lady students they can do these things falls wildly short of the mark. It would be far far better if a woman peer told them. But there are things about myself I neither can nor wish to change. But as it is I might be a member of the last generation to become amateur pilots. That seems to be the direction things are headed. I do all I can to forestall the inevitable, though.
Click to expand...
There is no reason why the number of male and female pilots needs to be equal. The only thing that needs to be equal is the opportunity to pursue the activity if that is what the person, male or female, wants. We are not talking about the 1960s or 70s, when women were institutionally excluded from some jobs. In 2018, if a woman wants to be a pilot, she has as much opportunity as a male does.
 
While I agree in full, I doubt opportunity is equal between men and women. I believe social constructs are still in place telling girls they can’t.
 
Why is it that anytime that the percentage of a demographic in an activity or career field does not equal the percentage of that same demographic in the general population do people assume that there is a problem?
 
steingar said:
While I agree in full, I doubt opportunity is equal between men and women. I believe social constructs are still in place telling girls they can’t.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that, I believe there are still people around, male and female who think that, but those social constructs are long gone.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I have only run across a few pilots in 19 years of professional aviation experience that had any negative opinions towards female pilots. When I was growing up in a small southern agricultural community the idea of women being the equal to men in most any profession was generally accepted. In fact when I was 16 and shopping around for an instructor the one I chose to fly with was a woman. She was intelligent, hard working, professional and a damn good instructor. I find the mindset of people feeling like they need to empower a young woman insulting to the young woman. Who do you think you are to insist that the lack of a penis requires extra special encouragement. There are plenty of young adults that do need that type of encouragement but it has nothing to do with gender. Social and economic circumstances are much more impactful.
Click to expand...

I've come across far more clueless non-pilots that hold negative opinions about female pilots. Perhaps those of us that fly have more respect and understanding of what it takes to do it well.

Nevertheless, I'll make the observation that organizations and events such as these must be fulfilling some legitimate need amongst women to generate the participation they do. And they haven't been around all that long. WomenVenture marked 10 years in 2017, and WIA was founded only in 1990 - a lot younger than most of the airplanes we fly :eek: :p

IMG_0373.PNG


IMG_0374.PNG

IMG_0375.JPG
 
steingar said:
While I agree in full, I doubt opportunity is equal between men and women. I believe social constructs are still in place telling girls they can’t.
Click to expand...
I am only going from my own experience, but I never encountered anyone who said I couldn't be a pilot because I am female, and I got my PPL in 1977. The comments I have gotten about my chosen career have almost always been positive, although many sounded like backhanded compliments, LOL. I used to get annoyed when people told me how AMAZING it was, as if I appeared handicapped in some way, but I got over it and take these comments as the compliments they are intended to be.
 
sourdough44 said:
Back in my Navy time we had a ‘purging’ of callsigns after the ‘Tailhook 91’ scandal. Luckily I never went that year, had been prior though. Since I never went in 91 I just watched the circus from the sidelines.
Click to expand...
d54961dfdd4dca5bb19b63a0617c51c0.jpg
 
Everskyward said:
There is no reason why the number of male and female pilots needs to be equal. The only thing that needs to be equal is the opportunity to pursue the activity if that is what the person, male or female, wants.
Click to expand...
EXACTLY! When organizations try to achieve arbitrary goals like 50/50 male female, you inevitably end up with people that don’t really want to be there. That never ends well.

I’ve worked with some outstanding women (officer and enlisted) in the Navy that were every bit as capable of not more capable as me. But I’ve also worked with some who got there because of some ridiculous recruiting effort and they just didn’t have the desire/drive needed to succeed.

I have never met Captain Shults, but the couple of folks I know that have indicate that she is one who had the drive and desire to fly.
 
sourdough44 said:
I never worry about the corporate work environment today with sexual harassment and all the rest. I’ve seen enough up close to easily steer clear of that minefield. We had a few that came under very close scrutiny back in the day, amounted to ZERO when all was done.
Click to expand...
One of the interesting things is that in the last couple years we are finding that racism and sexism is a bigger problem in the civilian/corporate world than it is in the military.
 
Fearless Tower said:
One of the interesting things is that in the last couple years we are finding that racism and sexism is a bigger problem in the civilian/corporate world than it is in the military.
Click to expand...

That has been my experience for as long as I have been in the real world (after graduation:cool:)

Cheers
 
steingar said:
While I agree in full, I doubt opportunity is equal between men and women. I believe social constructs are still in place telling girls they can’t.
Click to expand...
I think that like me, you are showing your age.

These days, girls are rarely excluded from anything and are rarely told they cannot do anything. I am almost to the point of thinking that young men are the ones being disadvantaged by the mere fact of giving all others an advantage.

It is similar for race, but even with as much progress as there has been, racial discrimination still exceeds gender discrimination.
 
JOhnH said:
These days, girls are rarely excluded from anything and are rarely told they cannot do anything. I am almost to the point of thinking that young men are the ones being disadvantaged by the mere fact of giving all others an advantage.

It is similar for race, but even with as much progress as there has been, racial discrimination still exceeds gender discrimination.
Click to expand...
I would like to believe I’m simply thinking critically. There are professions for which women are biologically less suited than men. This is only logical, since humans are sexually dimorphic with regards to size and muscle mass. Thus professions that require brute strength are likely to continue to be male dominated.

Mathematics, engineering, and physics do not fall under this rubric, but have not enjoyed the robust participation of the fairer sex. There are only two possibilities. One is that women are biologically unsuitable in these pursuits. This, as I’ve said is patent nonsense. The other is there are social constructs preventing this. A good example is the amazement Mari has described experiencing at being a woman pilot.

As far as saying such constructs don’t exist, I am sorry but this indicates a clear deficit in critical thinking. You cannot prove that something doesn’t exist because you cannot see it. We know there is a giant singularity at the heart of our galaxy, but no Astronomer has ever seen it. Singularities are invisible by there nature. But they can be detected by their effects on other objects.
 
If women or men don’t want or do want to be pilots, brain surgeons, tax collectors, hair stylists, entomologist or anything else I really don’t care and certainly don’t want to try and “fix” it. As long as the openings are there and free to anyone with the skill and desire to enter the field, what needs fixing? One of my daughters is a paralegal, the other is a stay at home mom. Their both happy and so am I as it’s what they chose to do.

BTW, the last visit to my engineering alma mater I met approximately equal numbers of female and male students. The overall percentage was around 25% female. At the Nursing school, it was almost exactly the opposite. Neither needs fixing.

Cheers
 
Last edited:
My profession is now dominated by females. It was about 50/50 30 years ago. They earn as much as I do, based on experience. One day they will rule the world. ;)
 
N659HB said:
My profession is now dominated by females. It was about 50/50 30 years ago. They earn as much as I do, based on experience. One day they will rule the world. ;)
Click to expand...

What do you mean, one day! o_O :D
 
Last edited:
steingar said:
Mathematics, engineering, and physics do not fall under this rubric, but have not enjoyed the robust participation of the fairer sex. There are only two possibilities. One is that women are biologically unsuitable in these pursuits. This, as I’ve said is patent nonsense. The other is there are social constructs preventing this. A good example is the amazement Mari has described experiencing at being a woman pilot.
Click to expand...

Not being overly critical here, but again, showing age. Mari is retired after all. :)

The flight schools at the airport are starting to see about 50/50 ... when was the last time you poked your nose into a flight school? :) The CFI cadre at a couple of the local schools is pushing 50/50 also. Not quite there yet but it’s close. And the female instructors are really well respected.

I’m trying to get airplane and weather scheduling straight to start a female student who’s older than I am. Like older men (of the past?), she has a good job in a medical field and income commensurate with that job and wants to try something interesting/new.

She’s extremely excited about the intro flight, had family in the past that owned airplanes... all the usual older pilot stereotypes. Her questions on the phone show she’s willing to study. Today’s question was, “Why is everything done in knots?” And we haven’t even met at the airport yet. (I called to explain the scheduling problems and postpone which made me feel bad... ahhh... scheduling!!!)

Whole thing is cracking me up as a new CFI. Fun to think back to when I was asking all these questions!

Also a bit of Karma going on here. I got the student who can talk more than I can!!! LOL. (One of my old CFIs thinks that’s absolutely hilarious.)

But yeah. Mari’s generation saw some significant gender problems in this biz. The current generation really isn’t seeing it. Still some jerk males in the biz but they’re being marginalized.

Heck. I was raised by a female oil executive and that’s a good old boy club from hell. And I have (lots of) grey hair nowadays.
 
Social construct or free will being exercised? Maybe the good professor could explain the social construct of which he is speaking, things like what it is, where it is coming from and how it is being enforced. Obviously you can explain it since you are able to think critically about it.
 
denverpilot said:
Not being overly critical here, but again, showing age. Mari is retired after all. :)

The flight schools at the airport are starting to see about 50/50 ... when was the last time you poked your nose into a flight school? :) The CFI cadre at a couple of the local schools is pushing 50/50 also. Not quite there yet but it’s close. And the female instructors are really well respected.

I’m trying to get airplane and weather scheduling straight to start a female student who’s older than I am. Like older men (of the past?), she has a good job in a medical field and income commensurate with that job and wants to try something interesting/new.

She’s extremely excited about the intro flight, had family in the past that owned airplanes... all the usual older pilot stereotypes. Her questions on the phone show she’s willing to study. Today’s question was, “Why is everything done in knots?” And we haven’t even met at the airport yet. (I called to explain the scheduling problems and postpone which made me feel bad... ahhh... scheduling!!!)

Whole thing is cracking me up as a new CFI. Fun to think back to when I was asking all these questions!

Also a bit of Karma going on here. I got the student who can talk more than I can!!! LOL. (One of my old CFIs thinks that’s absolutely hilarious.)

But yeah. Mari’s generation saw some significant gender problems in this biz. The current generation really isn’t seeing it. Still some jerk males in the biz but they’re being marginalized.

Heck. I was raised by a female oil executive and that’s a good old boy club from hell. And I have (lots of) grey hair nowadays.
Click to expand...

My wife is an engineer, and was employed by a military contractor in the 80's. A few guys actually came up to her and accused her of taking a job from a guy who needed it to feed his family. She would just tell them she needed to feed her family. I think it has gotten much better now, but I'm sure they are still out there.
 
And so it goes...

This thread has degenerated to a discussion of implied or apparent sexism for no reason.

And I think @N659HB could have more accurately said "Equality is all well and good, when I agree with you."

Sheesh. If only there was a place on this forum to discus topics like this.
 
Throughout the agency we have around 200 electricians who maintain the airports, bridges and tunnels. None are female (that I know of). Back when I was hired in the mid 80's, I worked with one female electrician and a female apprentice (in the 90's). The apprentice gave up after failing the practical test a couple of times (she later took an office job in the agency). The physical demands of this line of work probably deters most females.

Sad thing is how many of the guys back then thought nothing of being disrespectful to those two women (mostly verbal disrespect). I've witnessed behavior (and not just towards the females) that would get those jerks canned in a heartbeat, in today's workplace. So fortunately things have improved.
 
Last edited:
denverpilot said:
I think I’d rather go to work than be pregnant. :)
Click to expand...
So would I, and remember, I'm retired. :)

Yeah, I did get the are you getting married, are you getting pregnant question, back in the day when it was allowed, the early 1980's, before many here were born. I must have been convincing in my answer. As I said before, this is 2018.
 
Last edited:
Ravioli said:
And so it goes...

This thread has degenerated to a discussion of implied or apparent sexism for no reason.
Click to expand...
That happened the moment somebody decided it was important for people to know that the captain is a woman...long before this thread started.
 
Back in my racing days, at one track there was a woman racer. In the sprint car class no less. She could drive just as good as the boys and even won a few races. And she never backed away when the fight started. No one ever thought less of her for being a woman, at least not twice. Just a few years earlier women were not allowed in the pits.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I respectfully disagree... cite the recent Starbucks incidence as evidence. Many more don't get the same press.
Click to expand...

The Starbucks event was weird. Weird in that the company CEO bent over into a contorted mess to be apologetic to those guys. I don’t get it.

I never go into a business and use their facilities or sit around without buying anything. Heck, even when I stop at a gas station just to take a leak, I always buy something on my way out even if it is just a drink or a pack of gum. If I were to go into a business and just park my fat ass without buying anything, I’d expect to be asked to leave or to buy something. And if I refused, I would not be surprised to see the cops show up. The store and the cops did what they should have.
 
http://fortune.com/2018/04/22/starbucks-vague-policies-nonpaying-customers/
"The Wall Street Journal interviewed an array of current and former Starbucks staff and managers, who said their training didn’t address the question, and were unaware of a written policy on non-paying customers. Instead, such judgments are generally left to store managers or individual store policies."

SO..... IMO
1. The manager was within her rights to question them and tell them that the facility is for paying customers, IF AND ONLY IF they appeared to be up to no good..,
(i.e. suspicious activity, drug dealing or some other criminal behavior).

However, there were no indication of such, nor did she state such suspicious activity to the police. SO she was wrong to call the police on them! Two peaceful young men sitting there for a few minutes. Racial bias or not, that was uncalled for....PERIOD.

2. The police should have inquired as to the reasons she wanted to expel the young men in the first place. Were they causing a disturbance? Loud? Refusing to pay for service? The police failed.....PERIOD.

3. The police ARE the authority. So the moment they instructed the young men to leave, they should have got their asses up and left!......PERIOD. They themselves are responsible for escalating the situation to the level of getting arrested. This whole mess was stupid and totally unnecessary, especially when we still have so many 'REAL' injustices to rectify in society.

Just my opinion.
 
redtail said:
http://fortune.com/2018/04/22/starbucks-vague-policies-nonpaying-customers/
"The Wall Street Journal interviewed an array of current and former Starbucks staff and managers, who said their training didn’t address the question, and were unaware of a written policy on non-paying customers. Instead, such judgments are generally left to store managers or individual store policies."

SO..... IMO
1. The manager was within her rights to question them and tell them that the facility is for paying customers, IF AND ONLY IF they appeared to be up to no good..,
(i.e. suspicious activity, drug dealing or some other criminal behavior).

However, there were no indication of such, nor did she state such suspicious activity to the police. SO she was wrong to call the police on them! Two peaceful young men sitting there for a few minutes. Racial bias or not, that was uncalled for....PERIOD.

2. The police should have inquired as to the reasons she wanted to expel the young men in the first place. Were they causing a disturbance? Loud? Refusing to pay for service? The police failed.....PERIOD.

3. The police ARE the authority. So the moment they instructed the young men to leave, they should have got their asses up and left!......PERIOD. They themselves are responsible for escalating the situation to the level of getting arrested. This whole mess was stupid and totally unnecessary, especially when we still have so many 'REAL' injustices to rectify in society.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
It’s private property. There is no entitlement to access for anyone. If I parked in a business without paying for services I wouldn’t have any problem being asked to leave. I think it’s unreasonable to be offended at the request to leave. If I ask you to leave and you don’t that’s trespassing. No other bad behavior required to get a call to the cops.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top