Sulley and ATC Privatizaton

AKBill

AKBill

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What do you think about the commercial were "Sulley" talks about ATC privatization? I'm not sure I follow the point were he states the major airlines will run ATC privatization.

Currently I don't think ATC privatization is the way to go.
 
AKBill said:
What do you think about the commercial were "Sulley" talks about ATC privatization? I'm not sure I follow the point were he states the major airlines will run ATC privatization.

Currently I don't think ATC privatization is the way to go.
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Really, what makes Sully an expert? He's one of tens of thousands who fly professionally everyday. He just happened to glide an airplane into a river.
He has no more knowledge about ATC than any other highly experienced aviator.
 
Never seen "conservatives" and "liberals" alike, scream so loud that government does something so right that there's no room for improvement, before. It's impressive.

You'd think National ID cards might work, seeing all this cheerleading for government in this other role. :)
 
Kritchlow said:
Really, what makes Sully an expert? He's one of tens of thousands who fly professionally everyday. He just happened to glide an airplane into a river.
He has no more knowledge about ATC than any other highly experienced aviator.
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He's an expert at saying regional pilots are dangerous and any civilian trained aviator is sub par to their military trained counterparts:)
 
deonb said:
You see it everywhere:
  • Liberals want big government always.
  • Conservatives want big government in the cases where it personally affects them.
E.g. in the (admittedly small) right-wing part of the Tesla community, EV subsidies are the only acceptable non-military government spending. Here it's ATC. For my sick BIL it's Healthcare.

Everybody just looks out for number 1.
Click to expand...

I believe those are called fake conservatives, not conservatives. If a politician works in D.C., it wants to spend money.

But anyway...

Sully's opinion on ATC... not sure why I should care. The general public however... they'll see him as an authority figure on it, because... they don't know any better.
 
Haven't seen the ad - don't watch much TV. What's the gist of the ad?
It was my impression, from ? somewhere, that he was advocating against ATC privatization. No?
 
I believe, even before the big splash, Sully had established himself as an aviation safety expert and consultant in that arena. I have no personal knowledge.

I agree with the gist of posts on government, but a discussion about the role of government in infrastructure would be worth having. ATC is as much infrastructure as Interstate highways. Oh wait, those are built by contractors.

ATC outsourcing is only bad as long as it's controlled by the airlines; unfortunately, I can envision no other outcome.

Ernie
 
And the airlines,when in control,won't put themselves as a priority in all cases,and also cost share the service ,with the rest of aviation,and there passengers.
 
frfly172 said:
And the airlines,when in control,won't put themselves as a priority in all cases,and also cost share the service ,with the rest of aviation,and there passengers.
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If the airlines control ATC does that mean I have to join fight club if I want to fly? This stuff is complicated...
 
ebetancourt said:
I agree with the gist of posts on government, but a discussion about the role of government in infrastructure would be worth having. ATC is as much infrastructure as Interstate highways. Oh wait, those are built by contractors.
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So is Everything ATC, currently. ;)
ATC outsourcing is only bad as long as it's controlled by the airlines; unfortunately, I can envision no other outcome.
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No argument there.
 
Three issues I see. No one at the FAA wants to make decisions so change is very slow. Congressional funding for new technology is not consistent. Business jets are not paying their share to fund the system.
 
Clip4 said:
Business jets are not paying their share to fund the system.
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Those owners pay taxes too. That's like saying Cessna 172 pilots don't pay their share in the system.
 
Sully's opinion of privatization is fine for him to discuss. As are our opinions.

HERE COMES THE BOOGIE MAN ---> User fees

Will User fees be per flight, per mile, per ATC contact, per year, per [something else you pull out of your ass]?

Help me out people... I keep hearing there will be user fees and a bunch of chatter about the cost to fly in other countries.

So what? Find me someone who says they fly because it is economical.
 
roncachamp said:
Please provide the arithmetic that supports that assertion.
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In an ATC system which is designed around, and optimized for, the needs of the 121 carriers, I, too would love to see the math.

Inquiring minds and all that.
 
roncachamp said:
Please provide the arithmetic that supports that assertion.
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Not sure about the calcs for a business jet, but it is easy (and I did it over on the homebuilt airplanes forum a few months back) to show that airliners spend more in gas tax getting to altitude than one of us bug smashers spends on an entire trip. How is that either fair or an equitable use of resources?

I don't like the idea of user fees, I just don't see why airliners should spend so much more for the services than us little guys when we use similar amounts of ATC resources (let's assume an IFR cross country flight)?
 
roncachamp said:
Please provide the arithmetic that supports that assertion.
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Sure, you were a controller. Please provide your retirement and insurance values, your last years wages, how much paid time off you received ( don't forget sick leave), the cost of your initial and recuccurent training, and the number of aircraft an average controller handles a day.

I will then do the math and compare it to the $13 a flight hour a business pays in fuel taxes.
 
It's because he's a celebrity, and it's apparent that celebrity opinion holds much sway in political matters.

Having said that, Sully is a bona-fide aviation safety consultant, but I believe it is more in CRM and human factors issues.
 
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skier said:
Not sure about the calcs for a business jet, but it is easy (and I did it over on the homebuilt airplanes forum a few months back) to show that airliners spend more in gas tax getting to altitude than one of us bug smashers spends on an entire trip. How is that either fair or an equitable use of resources?
Click to expand...

How does that show bug smashers are not paying their share to fund the system?

How much would be saved if the parts of the system, ATC facilities, NAVAIDs, etc., that are used solely by bug smashers were eliminated? If that figure exceeds what bug smashers are paying then bug smashers are not paying their share.
 
Clip4 said:
Sure, you were a controller. Please provide your retirement and insurance values, your last years wages, how much paid time off you received ( don't forget sick leave), the cost of your initial and recuccurent training, and the number of aircraft an average controller handles a day.

I will then do the math and compare it to the $13 a flight hour a business pays in fuel taxes.
Click to expand...

The results would not support your assertion.

How much would be saved if the parts of the system, ATC facilities, NAVAIDs, etc., that are used solely by business jets were eliminated? If that figure exceeds what business jets are paying then business jets are not paying their share.
 
denverpilot said:
I believe those are called fake conservatives, not conservatives. If a politician works in D.C., it wants to spend money.

But anyway...

Sully's opinion on ATC... not sure why I should care. The general public however... they'll see him as an authority figure on it, because... they don't know any better.
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Probably best to compare sullys total flying ,including all his training , compared to all those badmouthing him.. I personally think he is an expert and did an excellent job landing the airplane. I also think taking it private would be a disaster.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Probably best to compare sullys total flying ,including all his training , compared to all those badmouthing him.. I personally think he is an expert and did an excellent job landing the airplane. I also think taking it private would be a disaster.
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Okay we'll go with another one of your "feelings" without substance, Jimmy. What training has Sully had on managing or doing ATC?
 
denverpilot said:
Okay we'll go with another one of your "feelings" without substance, Jimmy. What training has Sully had on managing or doing ATC?
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Easy to look up his record and experience. How about showing us yours? So far your showing no substance, just lots of arm chair hot air.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Easy to look up his record and experience. How about showing us yours? So far your showing no substance, just lots of arm chair hot air.
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I'm not on TV pretending to be an expert on ATC. I've simply said "Why would I give a crap about what Sully thinks about ATC?"

But as always, I appreciate your usual projection identifying what you're doing. Your arm chair hot air opinion that you agree with him, is certainly hot air, whereas my question is valid. Your ATC experience is even lower than his.
 
wrbix said:
Haven't seen the ad - don't watch much TV. What's the gist of the ad?
It was my impression, from ? somewhere, that he was advocating against ATC privatization. No?
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True he is advocating against privatization. My point was he claims major airlines will run ATC and it will jeopardize safety and security. I just do not see how he can justify what he said.
 
roncachamp said:
The results would not support your assertion.

How much would be saved if the parts of the system, ATC facilities, NAVAIDs, etc., that are used solely by business jets were eliminated? If that figure exceeds what business jets are paying then business jets are not paying their share.
Click to expand...

I didn't even put navaids in. What the business jets pay wouldn't pay their fair share of the pensions, let alone those working. The reality is business jets are free loaders off the tax payers and airline ticket taxes.
 
Clip4 said:
I didn't even put navaids in. What the business jets pay wouldn't pay their fair share of the pensions, let alone those working. The reality is business jets are free loaders off the tax payers and airline ticket taxes.
Click to expand...

Free loaders? Business jets pay nothing? Prove it.
 
The entire system is running on debt money anyway.

Arguing over the best way to lose money, seems rather useless someone has a real bid offer in hand that lowers the price tag a number big enough to move the needle.

All they're really debating is who's going to control the debt spending.
 
Remember, folks: the ATC system exists and is designed around the needs of the airlines (with some lagniappe for military). Nearly all of what's out there in ATC-land would be there, even if we were all grounded.

What's the incremental cost?
 
Ravioli said:
Sully's opinion of privatization is fine for him to discuss. As are our opinions.

HERE COMES THE BOOGIE MAN ---> User fees

Will User fees be per flight, per mile, per ATC contact, per year, per [something else you pull out of your ass]?

Help me out people... I keep hearing there will be user fees and a bunch of chatter about the cost to fly in other countries.

So what? Find me someone who says they fly because it is economical.
Click to expand...

I'd be happy if any user fee imposed is per available-seat-mile or just based on the number of people flown on a flight. Every person on a flight benefits the same from the system whether it be a C150 or an A380 so each person flown should pay an equal share. Yes that means the airline as a whole pays more but it is passed along to the passengers just as it should be. The concept that some advocate that a flat fee per flight be levied is simply ridiculous.

Or rather than user fees just keep it as a fuel tax. The more you burn, the more you pay. It's probbaly easier to collect as well.
 
In regards to the concept of privatization, I'm not necessarily against it as a concept depending on how it is done. If it does not involve an industry board that is heavily weighted in favor of the airlines then I would be more supportive. But as long as the airlines have a larger voice than everyone else, I stand firmly against it.

As to Sully and why what he says is so important, it is largely due to the power of celebrity due to his famed flight. Add to that the fact that he is highly knowledgeable in many areas of aviation (as are many of you) and you have someone with high credibility with the masses and the media. As such, he can be either a force for good or bad, depending on what you consider good and bad. There are tens of thousands of pilots in the US that have the same expertise (or even more) as Sully but who lack his celebrity. That is hard to overcome.
 
It's not only about privatizing ATC services, but control of the airports and airways trust fund - the majority of the funding for that comes from airline ticket taxes and general aviation receives more from it than we put in. If the trust fund is administered by the airline controlled private ATC corp, I predict airports without commercial service will be hard pressed to get grants.
 
deonb said:
You see it everywhere:
  • Liberals want big government always.
  • Conservatives want big government in the cases where it personally affects them.
E.g. in the (admittedly small) right-wing part of the Tesla community, EV subsidies are the only acceptable non-military government spending. Here it's ATC. For my sick BIL it's Healthcare.

Everybody just looks out for number 1.
Click to expand...
Conservatives want government to stay in its lane. American conservatives believe in a government of limited powers. There are certain things known as public goods. The military is one, I think ATC is another.

Recall that before 9/11, the airlines were responsible for airport security. After 9/11, when Congress demanded that airport security actually do something, the airlines couldn't run away fast enough and demand the government do it.

And I don't know anything about the "Tesla community," but I know several folks I consider conservative (or libertarian) who own them. They enjoy the subsidies, but I don't think anyone would argue they're justified.
 
Lindberg said:
Recall that before 9/11, the airlines were responsible for airport security. After 9/11, when Congress demanded that airport security actually do something, the airlines couldn't run away fast enough and demand the government do it.
Click to expand...

Before 9/11, the airlines were responsible for airline security and airports were responsible for airport security. Airports remain responsible for airport security.
 
skier said:
Not sure about the calcs for a business jet, but it is easy (and I did it over on the homebuilt airplanes forum a few months back) to show that airliners spend more in gas tax getting to altitude than one of us bug smashers spends on an entire trip. How is that either fair or an equitable use of resources?

I don't like the idea of user fees, I just don't see why airliners should spend so much more for the services than us little guys when we use similar amounts of ATC resources (let's assume an IFR cross country flight)?
Click to expand...
If you "fix" that, then I expect to be able to fly my mooney into any class bravo whenever I feel like it and not have to go around because an A380 is coming in three times my speed.

GA does not get or expect equal access to ATC services today.
 
Salty said:
If you "fix" that, then I expect to be able to fly my mooney into any class bravo whenever I feel like it and not have to go around because an A380 is coming in three times my speed.
Click to expand...

I had no problem flying a C-172 VFR into JFK and I know a number of people that have landed other small planes that are slower than a Mooney at EWR and Laguardia.

Then again, the NY controllers are fantastic. I've had nothing but good experiences with them. As long as you know what you're doing and don't take up too much space on the radio, they'll accommodate you. Even on the busiest of days.
 
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