Student buying an airplane

drgwentzel

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Kobra
I am going to ask the group's opinion and I don't want to sound critical, so I am simply going to state facts:


my student is buying an airplane (has not solo'd yet) and we haven't flown in a year. We only spoke on the phone this week since a year ago.

the plane is a '55 Beechcraft Bonanza F35 V-tail

it sounds like he already bought it, he's making payments to the owner and that's all I know.

He does not know the TT on the airframe.

He thinks the engine has 1100 hours on it and it was last over-hauled in the late 80's.

He did not get a pre-buy inspection.

It is not in annual.

AD compliance unknown.

Damage history unknown.

He says the logbooks are complete AND HIS WIFE IS LOOKING THROUGH THEM...EH?! (she is not an IA or A&P)

He said the seller will provide an annual inspection at seller's expense.

He does not know how many hours the plane has flown in the last year, or 5 years. That can be determined in the logbooks I figure.

It has old radio's and avionics...nothing new except it looks like a 396 or 496 comes with it. No auto pilot that I can tell.

Exterior paint looks good in the pictures.

Interior looks original or from the 70's in fair condition.

He does not know if it was hangared or tied-down.

Corrosion unknown.

It has a single throw-over yoke. (that does it in for training or taking his checkride)

Prop condition unknown. (2 blade)

He does not know the seller, but says he is a "straight shooter" and he trusts him. Says he's in his 80's and owns several aircraft.

He said he's paying about 21,000 for it.

Comment: I tried to talk logic and explain the wisdom of a pre-buy inspection, and that a low price means nothing, and that it's better to buy a plane ready to go then one you will have to invest in. ie a new engine, new avionics, and many small repairs that have huge price tags. Most likely there will be more large repairs than small ones. I told him parts may be hard to find or will be expensive.

Ok...can I get the group's opinions on this?
 
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It's his money. He should be able to waste it as he likes.
 
I am going to ask the group's opinion and I don't want to sound critical, so I am simply going to state facts:


my student is buying an airplane (has not solo'd yet) and we haven't flown in a year. We only spoke on the phone this week since a year ago.

the plane is a '55 Beechcraft Bonanza F35 V-tail

it sounds like he already bought it, he's making payments to the owner and that's all I know.

He does not know the TT on the airframe.

He thinks the engine has 1100 hours on it and it was last over-hauled in the late 80's.

He did not get a pre-buy inspection.

It is not in annual.

AD compliance unknown.

Damage history unknown.

He says the logbooks are complete AND HIS WIFE IS LOOKING THROUGH THEM...EH?! (she is not an IA or A&P)

He said the seller will provide an annual inspection at seller's expense.

He does not know how many hours the plane has flown in the last year, or 5 years. That can be determined in the logbooks I figure.

It has old radio's and avionics...nothing new except it looks like a 396 or 496 comes with it. No auto pilot that I can tell.

Exterior paint looks good in the pictures.

Interior looks original or from the 70's in fair condition.

He does not know if it was hangared or tied-down.

Corrosion unknown.

It has a single throw-over yoke. (that does it in for training or taking his checkride)

Prop condition unknown. (2 blade)

He does not know the seller, but says he is a "straight shooter" and he trusts him. Says he's in his 80's and owns several aircraft.

He said he's paying about 21,000 for it.

Comment: I tried to talk logic and explain the wisdom of a pre-buy inspection, and that a low price means nothing, and that it's better to buy a plane ready to go then one you will have to invest in. ie a new engine, new avionics, and many small repairs that have huge price tags. Most likely there will be more large repairs than small ones. I told him parts may be hard to find or will be expensive.

Ok...can I get the group's opinions on this?

Did he know the color? that may be the only thing that matters to him.
 
I would typically advocate any student buying an airplane for training but this just sounds crazy. Is there anyone else who knows about flying that can talk to him? Has he talked to someone else at his local FBO?

I mean sure, this could all be great and we just dont know it, but usually there's a reason if its out of annual and hasnt flown... ****... I'll sell him my 56 Cessna for 30, it meets all the the requirements for training, airworthy, garmin 430, etc. (I dont actually want to sell it, my point is there are tons out there in the same price range that are far more reliable and higher quality)
 
If you already spoke to him and gave him advice but doesn't take it then there's nothing else you can really do. He'll learn from his mistake if the plane is crap.
 
I will say though..those are good looking airplanes. I can see why he'd fall in love with it. To buy one without a pre-buy or annual is madness
 
Also.... Has he considered why the guy is willing to sell such a bargain to someone making payments? If its such a good aircraft he should be able to sell it someone who has cash or financing without needing to take payments from a young guy. People who are willing to do that usually have a reason to do so.

I dunno.. I guess in the end you just gotta remember he's a student, not your son. If he's gonna play stupid games, there's a chance he's gonna win a stupid prize
 
I am going to ask the group's opinion and I don't want to sound critical, so I am simply going to state facts:


my student is buying an airplane (has not solo'd yet) and we haven't flown in a year. We only spoke on the phone this week since a year ago.

the plane is a '55 Beechcraft Bonanza F35 V-tail

it sounds like he already bought it, he's making payments to the owner and that's all I know.

He does not know the TT on the airframe.

He thinks the engine has 1100 hours on it and it was last over-hauled in the late 80's.

He did not get a pre-buy inspection.

It is not in annual.

AD compliance unknown.

Damage history unknown.

He says the logbooks are complete AND HIS WIFE IS LOOKING THROUGH THEM...EH?! (she is not an IA or A&P)

He said the seller will provide an annual inspection at seller's expense.

He does not know how many hours the plane has flown in the last year, or 5 years. That can be determined in the logbooks I figure.

It has old radio's and avionics...nothing new except it looks like a 396 or 496 comes with it. No auto pilot that I can tell.

Exterior paint looks good in the pictures.

Interior looks original or from the 70's in fair condition.

He does not know if it was hangared or tied-down.

Corrosion unknown.

It has a single throw-over yoke. (that does it in for training or taking his checkride)

Prop condition unknown. (2 blade)

He does not know the seller, but says he is a "straight shooter" and he trusts him. Says he's in his 80's and owns several aircraft.

He said he's paying about 21,000 for it.

Comment: I tried to talk logic and explain the wisdom of a pre-buy inspection, and that a low price means nothing, and that it's better to buy a plane ready to go then one you will have to invest in. ie a new engine, new avionics, and many small repairs that have huge price tags. Most likely there will be more large repairs than small ones. I told him parts may be hard to find or will be expensive.

Ok...can I get the group's opinions on this?

that's so weird, I mean none of the things you listed are really of any importance to a pilot. get in the plane and if something seems broke, maybe get it fixed, no big deal. :eek: "it's a bo" is all he needs to know. all you really need to know is the throw over yoke means you get to walk.
 
I've met several people that went to buy a plane by trusting the seller, and hoping that a engine that has sat for a long period will have no issues. Each one of them had major expenses (internal engine corrosion, airframe corrosion, pencil whipped annuals, etc).

Money can fix most issues, so I hope he got a super good deal and has funds to repair. If the paint is pretty, maybe he can just park it an smile at it?

As an instructor, it is up to you if you feel it is safe enough to go up in.
 
Oh boy, he'll enjoy the ownership experience.
 
Did he know the color? that may be the only thing that matters to him.

Or the drapes, most old Beechs had drapes....

In the end, it's his money. If he's got good karma he'll spend $35-45k over the next few years and have a decent old airplane. If his karma is crap, he's buying scrap.
 
Sounds like a ****** of a plane to learn in though.
 
Buying a plane to do primary training? Perhaps not a bad idea depending upon the rental situation. Buying a Bo in the manner the student is? Not such a great idea. Actually makes me wonder if its a foreshadow of one of the dangerous attitudes.

If your going to teach him in the Bo be aware it has some nuances, like a very distinct stall and tendency to drop a wing. The emergency gear extension procedure is a real treat. He should also experience a door popping open scenario. Its a real hurricane in the cabin. I might even decline to teach the student. Good luck
 
He heard about that legendary Beech quality and said "F-it....I don't need no stinkin' pre-buy!"
 
I hate to sound negative, but this reads like an accident report waiting to happen.
 
Sounds like a good project plane to me. I would be concerned about corrosion though.
 
I might have been in simular situation. I bought a commanche when I was a student. I also had a 172. Flying the commanche made the 172 a lot easier to fly. I didn't have much trouble flying commanche and it was lot of fun. I may even have been pre-solo myself, don't remember. I thought the commanche was going to be more what I was going to be flying and that it would be good to learn in. (My go to plane now is a malibu). I never really had much trouble flying it, but flew 172 more. And like your student I didnt know as much about planes at that time and didn't get the deal I thought I was getting or the plane I thought I was getting. Learned bunch there. Cost me some money but I don't regret it. Would I do it again.. Probably not knowing what I do now. But neither I nor my instructor ever really thought it was a unsafe thing. I'm sure every individual is different.
 
Too early to say anything.

Might be a pile o' crap

Might be a nice Bo' for a good price

Getting or renting the dual yoke ain't the end of the world.

Won't know till you see it.
 
Buying a plane to do primary training? Perhaps not a bad idea depending upon the rental situation. Buying a Bo in the manner the student is? Not such a great idea. Actually makes me wonder if its a foreshadow of one of the dangerous attitudes.

If your going to teach him in the Bo be aware it has some nuances, like a very distinct stall and tendency to drop a wing. The emergency gear extension procedure is a real treat. He should also experience a door popping open scenario. Its a real hurricane in the cabin. I might even decline to teach the student. Good luck

Meh, just another GA single, nothing the average student couldn't learn in.
 
At least with the throw over yoke he wont ask you to train him in it.
 
At least with the throw over yoke he wont ask you to train him in it.

Dual yokes can be rented.

Many of the older Bos dont have copilot brakes and dont make a great initial trainer even with the dual yoke in place. The F33s and A36s used by the airlines like LH, Sabena and JAL to train their ab-initio students have dual controls and copilot brakes. We looked into retrofitting copilot brakes and decided it was cost prohibitive (iirc 3.5k in parts and lots o hours to do).
 
Once more is known, I'd like to hear the "Paul Harvey" version... including "the REST of the story"
 
Throw over yokes ensure the student is extremely well trained in positive exchange of control
 
May we ask the age of this student?

"A fool and his money..." might apply.
 
Old Taylorcrafts taught many how to fly with one set of brakes. This could be a very exciting experience as things fail. Wonder if the tail mod was done? I wouldn't think it would be too tough with a hi time instructor vs. a beginner time builder. It's definitely the excitement plan.
 
I am going to ask the group's opinion and I don't want to sound critical, so I am simply going to state facts:



"...It has a single throw-over yoke. (that does it in for training or taking his checkride)"


Ok...can I get the group's opinions on this?

He asked and you told him. That's all you can do. But just one thing...if, in the opinion of an instructor or examiner, the training may be done safely it's perfectly o.k.. There's no rule otherwise.
 
He's a nice guy in his early 50's to mid 50's. Has a technical (electrical) career.


Well then I'd think he wouldn't fit the fool definition at all. My guess would have been real young/dumb kid.

Maybe he just got big eyes at a perceived deal. I've done it, thankfully not with an airplane...
 
Well then I'd think he wouldn't fit the fool definition at all. My guess would have been real young/dumb kid.

Maybe he just got big eyes at a perceived deal. I've done it, thankfully not with an airplane...

There's plenty of us young dumb kids that wouldn't have touched anything about that scenario with a 10 foot pole.
 
I purchased a C152 I used to get my PPL. I purchased my S model bonanza when I had 44 hours and my PPL (35 years later I still have the bonanza). I got my instrument rating within 6 months, commercial and CFI within 14 months. Best purchases I made. I sold the C152 for the price I paid for it 8 years later, and I purchased a C150 to train my son and son-in-law that got flipped by Hurricane Sandy. I then purchased a C172 to finish my son's training. It all started with my C152 purchase after I had about 5 hours TT in a C150.
 
There's plenty of us young dumb kids that wouldn't have touched anything about that scenario with a 10 foot pole.

There's one unknown about the scenario, the seller. There are people I know I will buy anything they have sight unseen.
 
If the seller is promising the plane is in ok condition, and if the guy is making payments not payment in full, that seems less risky. If the plane ends up being a POS, the guy can just walk.
 
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