Standard Rate Turns without Turn Coordinator?

sonopoa

sonopoa

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
136
Display Name
Display name:
sonopoa
I have only flown steam. Dumb q: On a glass panel how do you do std rate turns.
 
Do you have an attitude indicator? If so, 18 degrees is standard rate.

edit: yes noted only at 120 kts. Not thinking outside what I’m usually flying.
 
Last edited:
Unless you’re flying the SR-71. Then it’s 60 degrees...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
At the top of the HSI, a magenta worm crawls out the side of the white triangle. When it gets to the length of the marker, that's a standard rate turn. Retuning to straight and level, it shrinks back into the white triangle until it disappears.

1912f_ol_ratecontrol_02_16x9.jpg
 
Glass panel EFIS has turn coordinator built in. There's tick marks on the lubber line that show the bank angle required, plus a "ball" along the bottom to coordinate rudder.

But, the old school way is to divide TAS by ten, then add half. So, for 100mph (TAS), the bank angle would be 15 degrees.
 
Hi.
As shown in #4 you can find the Std rate on top and it changes color, not shown in that pic. There is NO one number for Standard Rate, it depends on the TAS, see below. Many pilots, mostly Heavy drivers have no read good grasp of Standard Rate, they all pop out something like 30 deg and when you question them, point out that is Not correct, some will actually try to argue the point until you get them to read the FAA manuals.
A good approximation / formula is dividing the TAS (in knots) by 10 and then adding 5.
 
Last edited:
asicer said:
At the top of the HSI, a magenta worm crawls out the side of the white triangle. When it gets to the length of the marker, that's a standard rate turn. Retuning to straight and level, it shrinks back into the white triangle until it disappears.

1912f_ol_ratecontrol_02_16x9.jpg
Click to expand...
Holy uncoordinated turn Batman!
 
bluesideup said:
Many pilots, mostly Heavy drivers have no read good grasp of Standard Rate, they all pop out something like 30 deg and when you question them, point out that is Not correct, some will actually try to argue the point until you get them to read the FAA manuals.
Click to expand...
Standard rate generally means something different to “heavy drivers” than it does to light airplane pilots. Much like Gryder’s infamous maneuvering speed video, you can use a term that means different things to different people to show that they’re “not correct”.
 
In the early days of jets, the USAF used one-half standard rate turns. They had turn and bank indicator calibrated for 4-minute turns.
 
sonopoa said:
I have only flown steam. Dumb q: On a glass panel how do you do std rate turns.
Click to expand...
Using the turn coordinator standard rate indicator on the glass panel. What glass panel are you flying with? It will be in the manual for it, like this from the G5 Pilot Guide
upload_2022-7-24_18-22-1.png
 
The Garmin GI-275 and G5 only show a standard rate turn if the temperature sensor is installed. Need that to calculate true airspeed and the the standard rate. GI-275 Depiction is a white triangle on the attitude indicator that will move depending on TAS.
 
Last edited:
Here's how a G5 shows a std rate turn. (didn't see @midlifeflyer post of same thing)
11473B59-F753-40B3-A4B7-247414DDBD3E.jpeg
 

Attachments

  • 11473B59-F753-40B3-A4B7-247414DDBD3E.jpeg
    11473B59-F753-40B3-A4B7-247414DDBD3E.jpeg
    244.8 KB · Views: 47
Don't they teach timed turns anymore?
 
bluesideup said:
Many pilots, mostly Heavy drivers have no read good grasp of Standard Rate, they all pop out something like 30 deg and when you question them, point out that is Not correct, some will actually try to argue the point until you get them to read the FAA manuals.
Click to expand...

It seems like some people think that “heavy pilots” started flying in the right seat of a 757 and didn’t get their PPL, Comm, Inst, Multi or ATPs in 152s, Warriors and Seminoles.
 
David Lloyd said:
The Garmin GI-275 and G5 only show a standard rate turn if the temperature sensor is installed. Need that to calculate true airspeed and the the standard rate.
Click to expand...
Why is that? It's a rate of turn, and speed data should not be necessary. Heading change is all that's required, and that's what the gyros sensed.
 
I think a lot of folks depend way too much on gadgets...just my 2 cents...let the hate mail begin :)
 
Airspeed minus a zero plus half that is the bank angle.

100 kts = 10 + 5 = 15 degrees
180 kts = 18 + 9 = 27 degrees

If I remember correctly…
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
As shown in #4 you can find the Std rate on top and it changes color, not shown in that pic. There is NO one number for Standard Rate, it depends on the TAS, see below. Many pilots, mostly Heavy drivers have no read good grasp of Standard Rate, they all pop out something like 30 deg and when you question them, point out that is Not correct, some will actually try to argue the point until you get them to read the FAA manuals.
A good approximation / formula is dividing the TAS (in knots) by 10 and then adding 5.
Click to expand...
There is one number for Standard Rate. It is 3 degrees per second. Always has been and I doubt will ever change. Now the amount of bank needed to achieve that, that’s another story.
 
Sluggo63 said:
It seems like some people think that “heavy pilots” started flying in the right seat of a 757 and didn’t get their PPL, Comm, Inst, Multi or ATPs in 152s, Warriors and Seminoles.
Click to expand...
No opinion on what you just said, but while we’re here, what does it look like on your FMS driven displays?
 
David Lloyd said:
The Garmin GI-275 and G5 only show a standard rate turn if the temperature sensor is installed. Need that to calculate true airspeed and the the standard rate. GI-275 Depiction is a white triangle on the attitude indicator that will move depending on TAS.
Click to expand...
A G5 will show you standard rate no matter what. It does not need the temp probe.
 
luvflyin said:
No opinion on what you just said, but while we’re here, what does it look like on your FMS driven displays?
Click to expand...
Someone may be along shortly to correct me and remind me how bad my systems knowledge is, but until then... we don't have one. At the speeds we fly, we're limited to 25° AOB before we'd ever get to a standard rate turn AOB. I could see maybe light weight, down low and dirty, maybe getting to a speed it would not be 25°.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Someone may be along shortly to correct me and remind me how bad my systems knowledge is, but until then... we don't have one. At the speeds we fly, we're limited to 25° AOB before we'd ever get to a standard rate turn AOB. I could see maybe light weight, down low and dirty, maybe getting to a speed it would not be 25°.
Click to expand...

My plane also doesn't have one.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Someone may be along shortly to correct me and remind me how bad my systems knowledge is, but until then... we don't have one. At the speeds we fly, we're limited to 25° AOB before we'd ever get to a standard rate turn AOB. I could see maybe light weight, down low and dirty, maybe getting to a speed it would not be 25°.
Click to expand...

I guess you are flying big iron jets, not training or light GA piston

 
luvflyin said:
Hmm. Paging all Double I’s. What say you?
Click to expand...
We do. But IMO the technique is really only useful in a pure analog world. Turning to GPS track is 8 times easier and more accurate even without glass (even if you have to tweak after rollout). So even with steam gauges without backup, we're talking both vacuum and GPS failure to need a timed turn.
 
Sluggo63 said:
It seems like some people think that “heavy pilots” started flying in the right seat of a 757 and didn’t get their PPL, Comm, Inst, Multi or ATPs in 152s, Warriors and Seminoles.
Click to expand...

I've known quite a few "heavy pilots" who have never flown a piston airplane, or if they did, it was only for a few hours and a long time ago - and they weren't doing instrument training in it anyway. They started off in T-37s and moved up from there.
 
RussR said:
I've known quite a few "heavy pilots" who have never flown a piston airplane, or if they did, it was only for a few hours and a long time ago - and they weren't doing instrument training in it anyway. They started off in T-37s and moved up from there.
Click to expand...
I know. There are a few of those. But, I instructed students in T-37s for quite a number of years, and trust me… we taught them standard rate turns.

Now, whether or not they remember us teaching them that, that’s a different story. ;)
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Don't they teach timed turns anymore?
Click to expand...

I do, but I can't say I spend a whole lot of time on them. Conceptually they're simple, of course, if you can do some basic math in your head while flying (not everybody can), or if you learn various rules of thumb and quick tricks to accomplish the same. However, when was the last time anybody actually had to rely on timed turns to get down safely? That's a real question, I'd be really interested to know if you have - because I'm assuming it's a pretty rare event.

After teaching them, I then talk about different and better ways to achieve the same result - primarily by using the ground track on the GPS. Heck, in my opinion even just simple compass turns are easier to execute, as long as you remember UNOS and what it means. Forget the timing. In a typical IFR training airplane you're getting bounced around so much anyway that any attempted precision is just a guess.
 
luvflyin said:
No opinion on what you just said, but while we’re here, what does it look like on your FMS driven displays?
Click to expand...
It's not displayed. We are rarely flying slow enough that we can do a standard rate turn without exceeding our 30° bank limit.

With clean wings, we can't do it. Varies by weight, but 210 KIAS is generally the slowest speed that I know I can fly clean in the 737. Bigger airplanes can be much higher.

We target 25° for most turns, less at high altitude. 30° is available if we need it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top