Should Radios Be Required At Non-Towered Airports?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by WannFly, May 7, 2020.

?

Should Radio calls be required at uncontrolled airports?

  1. Yes - Via Regulation

  2. Its a great idea, Yes but we do not need more regulations

  3. No Radios for me

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,256
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    While we're at it, let's make flight following mandatory. And filing a flight plan!

    Safety safety safety!
     
  2. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,126
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Gardner
    Definitely not. The Mark I eyeball provides the best collision avoidance...a radio is a crutch,

    Bob Gardner
     
  3. jnmeade

    jnmeade Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,120
    Location:
    Eastern Iowa
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim Meade
    Absolutely not. Take responsibility for see and avoid, don't try to push that off on someone else making a radio call.
     
  4. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    Because he didn't have a radio?
     
  5. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    5,349
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Priyo
    add ADSB to that listed and we are all set :p
     
    kayoh190 likes this.
  6. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11,893
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    stick one of these out the pilot side window

    upload_2020-5-8_9-26-23.png
     
  7. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    550
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WDD
    1) Too much regulation a bad thing
    2) I've yet to fly anywhere yet where it would be possible to operate without a radio. Hard time thinking of flying without being able to communicate. That's just because of where I live / fly.
    3) I wonder if this is similar to the "old school" vs "new school" sides you see on GPS vs VOR / DME / LORAN / etc.
     
  8. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,099
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    Sure I have. I just adjust my pattern to accommodate...
     
  9. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,247
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Got to love the ones that constantly cry about all the regulations they must comply with, and how unfair it is that it somehow inhibits their hobby, yet turn right around and want..........more regulations. :rolleyes:

    Unreal.
     
    SToL, biplanebob, mondtster and 3 others like this.
  10. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,099
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    The problem isn’t the people who don’t have radios but the people who assume everyone has a radio.
     
    keen9, aftCG, Howard Wilson and 3 others like this.
  11. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    414
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warmi
    It is not sarcasm ,it is logic.
    If you claim in your original post that you are not using radio “half the time” ... what does that even mean ?
    Half the time when you are supposed to use and you are not using because , what ? You have clear visibility for miles ? It is a distraction like your tv ?
     
  12. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,265
    Location:
    New York City
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skip Miller
    In response to that I once heard “nobody in the pattern except us NORDOs”.

    Nope, wasn’t me, honest! See, here is my radio... so I couldn’t have made that call.

    -Skip
     
    X3 Skier, Daleandee and wanttaja like this.
  13. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    9,820
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    And the people who are convinced that a mid air is a remote possibility because it's a "big sky".
     
    overdrive148 likes this.
  14. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,554
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RoscoeT
    Yep, noobish pilots who can't conceive how it's possible to operate outside their flight school/rental culture bubble.
     
  15. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    3,351
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RyanShort1
    Honest, I think the guys with eyeballs tend to look harder for collision threats than the lazy "muh radio and ADS-B" folks. And lest y'all forget, the gubment ain't never gonna succeed in giving all of the buzzards ADS-B, so stop being so heads-down.
     
  16. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    1,956
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    Can't speak for the other poster, but I have also been known to just shut the radio off. I've flown enough NORDO to be comfortable with it. If I'm inbound to an uncontrolled and the frequency is a constant squeal with yokels at multiple airports all stepping on everyone else's calls, I will often just turn it down and proceed in NORDO.

    Lots of planes that were both using the same frequency have met in the air and come down in pieces. Radios don't prevent midairs, good visual scans do.

    There's an exercise I like to challenge new pilots to do. I ask them how good their visual scan for traffic is while in the pattern. They usually claim its excellent. I then challenge them to go do half a dozen circuits in the pattern while there's a bit of other traffic around. Do the first 3 with the radio on. The second 3 with the radio off. If the amount of time you spend scanning for traffic doesn't increase during the second set of 3, I'll eat a bug.
     
  17. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,233
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    Just asking.
    You own a private airfield. Obviously not towered.
    You have an ultralight or maybe something from the '30s or '40s. No electrical system.
    You hop in your bug smasher for a trip around the patch or maybe to another private airport without a tower.
    Or you go sight-seeing for an hour.
    Maybe you occasionally fly over to the "real airport", also without a tower, for gas and a a burger at the diner.
    A government agency is going to force me to to carry a radio to fly off my own property?
    I can't land at an uncontrolled airport anywhere, without a radio?
    I own radios, but they are for my convenience, not the government's.
     
    edo2000 and bflynn like this.
  18. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    Indeed. Flying the cub, there's nothing for me to do but look outside. And I've been almost run over a time or two on a glider, but never by an antique with no radio.

    Flying with ADSB in/out, I've definitely picked up traffic i couldn't see with my eyeballs. It's a lesson on how truly far apart a mile, or even 500' is.
     
    Grum.Man likes this.
  19. Tusayan

    Tusayan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tusayan
    It is unreal, I agree. The end result of this short sighted view might be like what already exists in Germany in relation to hand held radios used at uncontrolled fields:

    There has to be a knowledgeable person on the ground to watch and hear, but not control your flight. If he’s not there to listen, you can’t land. So no landing at night.
    Your handheld needs to be an government approved model.
    Your handheld needs to have a sticker issued by the proper authority to approve it for use in your plane.
    You need to have a certificate of German language proficiency to use your handheld, or you can’t legally land. This does not come with your Pilot Certificate, it is separate.

    That’s where this sort of nonsense takes you, and you don’t want to go there.
     
    bflynn, aftCG and Kinder like this.
  20. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,099
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    Sadly most midair collisions or near misses you read about are between two aircraft with radios. The incident occurred because one was either on the wrong channel or reporting the wrong runway. A lot of people assume transmissions guarantee separation.
     
    idahoflier, Bobanna and RyanShort1 like this.
  21. smv

    smv Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    992
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    smv
    Perhaps the problem is not all the NORDOs. Perhaps the problem is all the NOTWRs. Maybe it is time to close all the non-towered airports, make all airspace Class B, and institute per-use user fees. That will eliminate all crashes and make the entire world safer.
     
  22. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    9,628
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Bad pilots are going to be bad pilots regardless of the regulations.
     
    AKBill and timwinters like this.
  23. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    18,516
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    Perhaps we need the MBZ (mandatory broadcast zone in Australia) or RMZ (Radio Mandatory Zone in the UK) concept. Essentially, these are uncontrolled fields where radio traffic reports are mandatory.
     
    bhopkins32 and WannFly like this.
  24. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,759
    Location:
    Fuquay Varina, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    I didn't think he was being sarcastic.

    If he was, better than caustic.
     
    Skyrys62 likes this.
  25. smv

    smv Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    992
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    smv
    Like KMOT when the tower is closed.

    Last summer the city of Minot, of all places, decreed that all pilots flying aircraft capable of making radio calls (including those aircraft not originally designed to be capable), will make position reports when the tower is closed. Various threats, real and implied, were made against those who would not comply.
     
  26. ChemGuy

    ChemGuy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,173
    Location:
    Dowagiac, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ChemGuy
    personally I think no one should be allowed to operate an aircraft without government approval. You should need a form signed by 4 bureaucrats prior to even starting an engine on a aircraft. For safety's sake.



    :rolleyes:
     
    RyanShort1 likes this.
  27. Tusayan

    Tusayan Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tusayan
    The intent of an RMZ is not typically to allow pilot to pilot communication, it is to allow a nearby ATC authority to contact you regardless of being in uncontrolled Class G airspace. Often there is a ‘listening squawk’ so you can broadcast that you’re ready to talk if ATC decides they’d like to ‘request’ that you do something. As a result many pilots remain in continuous contact with ATC because they are worried that regardless of their being in uncontrolled airspace they might not be reachable when requested.

    There are certainly many places in the world where you are not allowed to start the planes engine without ATC approval by radio.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  28. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    3,137
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    I've had that happen several times when I HAVE been making pattern calls. Not sure what's going on in their brains. I fly a tight pattern, though, and I think some of them hear "Fly Baby turning final" and think I'm still two miles out like they would be. Unobstructed view down final from the runup area, though, so they're just not looking.

    Favorite case was apparently a student with the instructor. I was on short final when they called "Cessna XXXX departing 34." The plane rolled forward a little bit then stopped short of the line. It then lurched a turn a bit to the left to give an unobstructed view of aircraft on final. I actually saw a hand appear on the right side of the cockpit, pointing at me as I crossed the threshold.

    I flew the original Fly Baby for ~7 years at this busy uncontrolled airport without a radio. Does make you VERY interested in learning to spot traffic. Unshielded ignition, so using a headset with a handheld was like strapping two popcorn poppers on the sides of my head.

    Last fall, I had a microphone failure flying into a nearby field. Had not one, but two airplanes take off in front of me on short final (I think they were together)....

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  29. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    3,137
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    Make sure you paint it to match the airplane.
    horn.jpg
    Ron Wanttaja
     
  30. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    3,137
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    We had a local FBO that was doing that. Claimed it was distracting from the instruction.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  31. Salty

    Salty Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    6,100
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Maybe we should mandate radios in cars, then we could take out all the stop signs and traffic lights since radios are the solution to traffic issues.
     
  32. WDD

    WDD Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2019
    Messages:
    550
    Location:
    Atlanta / KRYY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    WDD
    Might be a solution in search of a problem. If KXYZ untowered airports have 6 take offs and landings on a good day, and usually has 1 plane in the sky at a time - if that - then there isn't really anyone to talk to. And I would imagine planes at these airport without radios are probably cruising at 100 kts or less and in great weather, so you probably have a lot of reaction time anyway.

    Me? I wouldn't fly without using a radio. I'm just wired that way I guess (no pun intended).
     
  33. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11,893
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    eman1200
    how can you meow on guard with no radio? NORDO's be missin out.
     
  34. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    322
    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Martin Pauly
    The human eyes are indeed magnificent, but of course it helps to have an idea where to look. I've spotted airplanes in the pattern visually when the other pilot was not transmitting on CTAF, or was transmitting on the wrong frequency. I've also NOT seen airplanes in the pattern even though I clearly knew where to look from ADS-B "in" or their radio transmissions. Eyes, radio, ADS-B - they all work together, and each of them contributes to getting the overall traffic picture. I'd rather have more than less of the above, because they complement each other.

    - Martin
     
  35. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    We can come up with a list of collisions between planes talking on
    I'm sure we can all list midairs where the pilots were both communicating with each other or ATC.

    So far, I've never seen any data to back up always talking on the radio.
     
  36. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,628
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    Have you seen they guys involved with BoldMethod? I'm not sure any of them are shaving yet.
     
    SToL likes this.
  37. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    414
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warmi
    Nothing guarantees anything but just as in real life, you have multiple senses to help you navigate and unless you gonna start claiming that deaf people have no real disability and being able to hear does nothing for collision avoidance, why would you want to deprive yourself of that very sense in the air ?
    Of course it is not perfect but even if it does work only 50% of time in terms of giving you more detailed picture of what’s around you , that’s certainly better than 0%.

    What I don’t get is people being almost proud of not using radios because... “yeah, **** them and their stupid radios”... nothing to do with government regulations , just common sense.
     
  38. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    1,956
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Juliet Hotel
    Obviously being able to hear traffic on the radio is a good thing. The more information you can get, the better. For myself though, the radio is always used as a confirming instrument to my primary traffic avoidance instrument, my eyeballs. Allowing the radio to be primary and your eyeballs to be secondary is an easy habit to fall into if you're not careful.
     
  39. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,054
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    That's not obvious to me. Seen plenty of helmet fires caused by insignificant radio calls.
     
  40. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,173
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    ..two entirely different groups, and generally different from...
    ...other than the fact that they may all be “somebody besides me”. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020