Should I invest in my Archer, or buy a Commander?

Rykymus

Rykymus

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Rykymus
300+ hours into my PPL. I have owned a 98 Piper Archer 3 for the last two years and have enjoyed it. (Last payment is in April 2016.) Still has about 500 hours before recommended TBO, and is in pretty good shape. (Mechanic expects it to go past TBO.) My plan had been to take it to TBO, then sell it as a runout, using the money from the sale as down payment on something better. (I have my eye on a Commander 114/115.) I paid $80k for the Archer, and put another $10k into it. (Nothing big, just a lot of little things that I preferred to fix rather than risk them biting me in the butt later.) Problem is, I'm going to start my IFR training this summer/fall, and I don't have a WAAS GPS. (Garmin 430 only, no W) I know I don't need it for the training, and I can fly GPS approaches if I have ILS available, but we regularly fly into Monterey, and their ILS has been down for months. (I don't think they plan on fixing it, since by 2020 everyone flying to their class C will need ADSB and will have a WAAS GPS. But I could be wrong.) My wife likes flying, and wants to fly places with me, but want's something roomier. (Even though she's normal size.)

So, there are three questions here:
1) Should I invest in a WAAS upgrade or new GPS with WAAS, and get NextGen compliant now, even though I am not likely to keep this plane more than a year or two. (Hopefully less.)
2) Should I sell it now, (while there is still 500 hours left on the engine before TBO) buy another plane, and instead spend the upgrade money on that plane since I'll likely be flying it for the rest of my life?
3) If I do sell it now, which Commander is the best one for me? (Mission is mostly me and my wife, with moderate baggage, probably never more than 2-3 hour hops at max cruise, with occasional adult daughter along. Rarely would we need 4 people with light luggage and short hops. I also want the 17k ceilings for flying over mountains, since we're surrounded by them out here.)

Any and all comments/advice is appreciated.

Note: I am leaning toward the Commander due to its interior comfort, and the doors on both sides. (Wife may be normal size, at 5'6" & 120#, but I'm 6' and 250#, hence the need for space.) Besides, wife doesn't like small cramped cabins, and the Commander is similar in interior space to her Mercedes.
 
Single engine commanders ain't that quick, they look fast but just don't deliver outside of cosmetics, I'd keep the archer unless you're going to get a C210, lancair, PA24, etc.

As for the 430, just WAAS it, they are great units, I fly night IMC for work behind GNS boxes, they are more than adequate. In fact even non WAASed they work for 9/10 missions.
 
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Garmin will do a WAAS upgrade on your 430, Requires sending it back to them, and the upgrade price they quote includes a different GPS antenna to replace your current one. I think it's about $5500. I understand Garmin won't service 430s any more unless they are WAAS. Also, you may need to change the coax cable from the antenna depending on what type was used when the 430 was installed.

If you are definitely going to replace the airplane better to save your dough and put it into the new bird.
You might get a portion of your investment back.

There's another recent thread on this forum from a few weeks ago debating the various Commander models. Regardless of the fact the Commander may be a big, comfortable, and perhaps slower airplane than some other choices, I know from experience that a trip in a fast, tight airplane with a wife that is not comfortable will seem a LOT longer.

Found the link:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89202
 
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I've seen the WAAS upgrades for around 3k.

Also I've seen non WAAS 530s get repaired by garmin.
 
Find a Commander and try getting in and out a few times. At 6' and 250# you may not find it easy after a few times in and out. I'm 5'10" and 220#, the seat height to wing placement and the curve of the door frame, etc all combined to making getting out of the plane a not so easy task.

Nice to fly, not remarkedly fast for the appearance and HP.
 
Comanche. Dated as hell but a solid 150kts with range for days and nice climb rate. Wider than the PA-28 so you gain some shoulder/elbow comfort. Cheaper than what you got now. a $90K 115kt airplane, good lord man, you can do better, and that's coming from someone who owned a warrior ii and now arrow ii.
 
A 250/260 Comanche is more a 155-160 KTAS aircraft depending on the number of speed mods. I have time in Comanches and Commanders. I like the Commander, but the 112 is doggy. It is more comfortable than the Comanche, but only barely. I do like the two doors.

What does it for me is that the Comanche goes further, faster, carries more, and is much, much easier to get parts for. The Commander is somewhat orphaned and there is a much smaller fleet of them so that there is little incentive for companies to supply PMA parts.
 
Kristin said:
A 250/260 Comanche is more a 155-160 KTAS aircraft depending on the number of speed mods. I have time in Comanches and Commanders. I like the Commander, but the 112 is doggy. It is more comfortable than the Comanche, but only barely. I do like the two doors.

What does it for me is that the Comanche goes further, faster, carries more, and is much, much easier to get parts for. The Commander is somewhat orphaned and there is a much smaller fleet of them so that there is little incentive for companies to supply PMA parts.
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To be fair, compared to the PA28, they're both troublesome orphans. Other than that I agree with your points.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Comanche. Dated as hell
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Heck, I always thought they were a good looking planes.

If you really want, get one with a crappy interior and dull paint, get some new style leather made up at your favorite rod and custom shop, shoot a fancy new piper style paint job and most folks with think the plane is only a couple years old. Just look at a 172, even as a pilot from a few paces away I can't tell the difference between a brand new 172 when compared to a older one with a new style paint job.


hindsight2020 said:
To be fair, compared to the PA28, they're both troublesome orphans. Other than that I agree with your points.
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All the PA24s I've been around have been rather trouble free and low mx, of course they were all bought by guys who weren't new to aviation and had good pre buys.
 
If the wife wants a bigger, more comfortable airplane, you need to get a bigger, more comfortable airplane. That's all there is to it. ;)
 
GRG55 said:
I understand Garmin won't service 430s any more unless they are WAAS.
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Their website indicates otherwise depending on your part #. Unfortunately they don't indicate when they will be boat anchors.

 
rbridges said:
a few years ago, my 430 WAAS upgrade was low 3K but I had to pay for antenna installation, too.
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Antenna should be a no brainer assuming the access is relatively easy and spacing is correct. The antenna hole patterns are likely the same. Coax replacements, if required, (RG58 to RG142/RG400) would be comparatively time consuming.
 
Dealing with retractable gear is a pretty big issue for most pilots. That would be the deciding factor for me. YMMV
 
Get the IFR first.

Then fly with someone to show you the difference between WAAS and non-WAAS.

Putting the 3-5k in a WAAS upgrade will equal ~$0 in resale value. Using 100 hrs with no airplane payment will maybe yield a net ~0 in your sales calc.

Then, you'll have your training done in a plane you're not still "learning", and have a better picture of what you're needing/wanting while you shop for a Cirrus. :)
 
Never flown the PA24 or Commanders, but from what I've seen/read, there is very little difference. The Commander will be nicer and better-equipped, slightly larger interior, but slower than a PA24-260. The useful loads are pretty lose to each other, with the PA24 having maybe another 100lbs in useful load more than the 114. However, most examples I've seen on the PA24 are definitely spartan on interior and panel upgrades.

If it were me, and both the 114 and PA24 were the same price, I would probably go with the Commander. Looks a bit better, their owners are almost fanatical, and they are just one of the best-looking singles on the ramp, IMO.
 
hindsight2020 said:
To be fair, compared to the PA28, they're both troublesome orphans. Other than that I agree with your points.
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They are both complex aircraft so they are going to be more troublesome than an Archer. That is a given. Neither are really troublesome beyond your average complex aircraft except for the parts issue with the Commanders.
 
Rykymus; only your budget can answer your questions. A Commander, although a fine airplane will cost a good bit more for insurance and annual inspections. The performance difference may not be enough to offset the additional cost. Those who have said, "any performance gain over that of a Cherokee 180 comes at a significant cost," may not be wrong. Your need for 2 doors and ease of entry/exit and perhaps a bit more performance would have me looking at the Cessna 182. Fixed gear, reasonable speed, good payload and plenty of parts available. Upgrading yours? If you're going to sell it. I wouldn't spend money on it. You most likely won't get it all back. If I were looking at an airplane like yours to overhaul and update, I would want to start from original, and plan my updates on my own specific needs.
 
...Or just get a C180 or 185, cruise about the same speed as a PA24 but with fixed gear, haul more, have the option for tundras, skis, floats or amphibs, simple systems, great ramp appeal, good IFR platform and you can land on any airport or dirt strip with little effort. :D

For the price of a nice commander you could get into a IFR C180.
 
The goal is comfort, not speed. Speed is nice, but since most of our flights are 2 hours or less, an extra 10-20 knots isn't going make as much of a difference as en route comfort will. Remember, it's all about keeping the wife happy and in the plane. Also, I prefer low-wings, as does my wife. Also, we both like the look and feel of the Commander.

Budget-wise, I'm limited to around $300k for purchase, but operating costs aren't really an issue.
 
Well heck, in that case get a decked out navion, those things are HUGE inside and easy to get into.

Or a polished up beech 18 with the glass nose and airstair, plenty of room and weight is comfort.


For that budget a single engine commander wouldn't even be on my radar.
 
James331 said:
I've seen the WAAS upgrades for around 3k.

Also I've seen non WAAS 530s get repaired by garmin.
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You are correct. $3695 is Garmin's current price to do the upgrade, including supplying the new antenna.

http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/waasupgrade?#fragment-1

I went back and looked at my notes and the $5500 figure is what my local shop quoted me including remove and send my 430 to Garmin, change out the coax and antenna (a bit of a performance on my plane the way its currently installed) and reinstall the unit.

I understand Garmin will service non-WAAS 530s but not non-WAAS 430s unless you do the upgrade. That came from one of the larger Garmin shops out this way when I spoke with them in Oct.
 
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Rykymus said:
The goal is comfort, not speed. Speed is nice, but since most of our flights are 2 hours or less, an extra 10-20 knots isn't going make as much of a difference as en route comfort will. Remember, it's all about keeping the wife happy and in the plane. Also, I prefer low-wings, as does my wife. Also, we both like the look and feel of the Commander.

Budget-wise, I'm limited to around $300k for purchase, but operating costs aren't really an issue.
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If you have your heart set on a Commander, that is what you should buy. If you are still not sure, but leaning that way, get a flight behind the yoke of a Comanche and a Commander before making your decision. But most important is buying one you are happy with.

If you go with the Commander, get to know these guys. There are one of the few true Commander gurus. www.aerodyme.com. Jim Richards is the guy to talk to.
 
labbadabba said:
Socata Trinidads are also very roomy with 2 doors.
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Came here to say this.

Buy a Trinidad. I'm 6'6" and just shy of 3 bills and the 5' wide cabin is amazing in my Tampico (same fuselage)

Mrs. Tampico wants a Cirrus for the BIG RED HANDLE next time, but we may go for the Trinidad if the situation is right.

You've got great shops in CA and a huge base of expertise to pull from (Avex in Camarillo, Neff in Novato) along with a world-class user group online.

....and you'll be guaranteed to get a newer airframe for a budget-conscious price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
At 1500 SMOH, your plane will be considered a run-out. I once had a friend who is an aircraft dealer tell me, "sell before 3/4 TBO, if you OH the engine, figure flying 500 hrs to get your money back." This of course was back in 2000. The times have changed and the thoughts on TBO and OH have changed, BUT a savvy buyer is not going to pay you top dollar for any plane with 3/4 or more of TBO hrs on the engine. That is a lot of flying and years of unknown engine operation the buyer is buying into... YMMV
 
300K? That gets you quite a bit of airplane.

Have you considered a used Cirrus? I sat in a 22 and it was extremely roomy and comfortable, at least compared to my Archer.
 
Kristin said:
If you have your heart set on a Commander, that is what you should buy. If you are still not sure, but leaning that way, get a flight behind the yoke of a Comanche and a Commander before making your decision. But most important is buying one you are happy with.

If you go with the Commander, get to know these guys. There are one of the few true Commander gurus. www.aerodyme.com. Jim Richards is the guy to talk to.
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Jim is a very knowledgable and great guy, but the folks to get to know are the other owners at the Commander Owners Group. There area lot of good folks there that have sourced many of the off the shelf parts.

I sold my Commander recently, but it wasn't because of part availability.
 
Rykymus said:
The goal is comfort, not speed. Speed is nice, but since most of our flights are 2 hours or less, an extra 10-20 knots isn't going make as much of a difference as en route comfort will. Remember, it's all about keeping the wife happy and in the plane. Also, I prefer low-wings, as does my wife. Also, we both like the look and feel of the Commander.

Budget-wise, I'm limited to around $300k for purchase, but operating costs aren't really an issue.
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If you haven't been here already, go right away: www.commander.org

Sign up and see if there's somebody in your area who will show you around a Commander. Lotsa good guys over there and I'm sure you'll find someone happy to do so.

If it's just you and your wife, you could look at a 112A with a Hot Shot turbo normalizer on it. That might get you to the 17k altitude also (double check me on that, though). The 114's are also capable of having a turbo normalizer installed. Otherwise, you'd be looking at TC models for factory-installed turbos.

Then there's Jim Richards' bad-ass IO-580 mod for the 114/115.

There's one of everything I mentioned above currently listed for sale on ASO.com. Talk to Judi Anderson of Suncoast Aviation. She's like a walking memory bank of pretty much the whole Commander fleet.

You definitely won't have to spend $300k. I enjoyed my 112A when I had it, and you are right, for my usual 2 hr flight, the time diff was always +/- 15 minutes. I do wonder, if my budget was $300k today, I'm not sure if I'd get another Commander. Nothing regarding boogeyman stories about parts orphan, just that time has marched on. I do still love how they look tho... ;)
 
rpadula said:
Jinx Bill!
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Yeah, but my post time was first. :raspberry:

I loved my Commander and the way it flew, but at this point if I were to own again it might be a fling-wing or it might be EAB. For different reasons.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
300K? That gets you quite a bit of airplane.

Have you considered a used Cirrus? I sat in a 22 and it was extremely roomy and comfortable, at least compared to my Archer.
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300 puts him into a normally aspirated early G3 model. 2 doors, comfy wide cabin.

Not the new snazzy G1000/GFC700 setup, but dual GNS430Ws, Avidyne panel and Stec55X is nothing to sneeze at.
 
How did you buy a 1998 Archer, 3 years ago, for $80,000?
 
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