Seller: Pre-Buy MUST be done at home base

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machkhatib

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Mach
So I’m trying to move forward with buying the Piper Cherokee in this thread:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/rough-cessna-172-vs-clean-piper-cherokee.137107/

I’m now working on lining up the pre-buy inspection and test flight. The seller said it must be at the aircraft’s home base at KSIF and provided me with two local mechanics.

The first mechanic did the annual and said I shouldn’t pick him because he wouldn’t be impartial, and I should find a mechanic to give the aircraft a fresh look. I agree.

The second mechanic said he knows the seller personally and similarly, he wouldn’t be impartial, so I should find someone else. I agree.

So I find a good mechanic 16 NM (10 minute flight) at Air Harbors. The seller refuses to let the aircraft be ferried anywhere. Here’s a paraphrased version of that conversation…

Me: Can we do the pre-buy at Air Harbors?

Seller: No. I don’t have a valid medical.

Me: The mechanic is willing to ferry it.

Seller: No. I’m concerned about liability.

Me: Can you check with your insurance to see what they would require? I encountered this question in the past and they might require the pilot has a certain amount of hours. Just see what they say.

Seller: No.

Me: What if we got insurance for the ferry flight or signed a liability waiver?

Seller: No.

Me: How do I test fly the airplane?

Seller: You can test fly it with flight instructor Andy.

Me: Ok. It sounds like you trust Andy. If Andy ferried it to Air Harbor, or if Andy and I flew it there during our test flight and got the pre-buy and then flew it back, would that work for you? It’s the same risk to you.

Seller: …………………… I wasn’t even sure about the test flight. Now the test flight will occur AFTER you do the pre-buy.

So at this point I feel like Lando Calrissian dealing with Darth Vader, but maybe this sort of thing is normal?

I’m still trying to find a mechanic to do the pre-buy at KSIF. The mechanic at Air Harbor said his insurance only covers him in his hangar but he’s trying to work it out.

If you know a good pre-buy mechanic nearby who is willing to go to KSIF, please reply with your recommendations.
 
machkhatib said:
... but maybe this sort of thing is normal?
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3 years ago, this guy would be one of those guys that would never be able to sell. But now? Its a seller's market, and lots of sellers are being extra pains in the arse. He knows people are buying many planes in this price bracket without prebuys, so if you walk, another will be along.
Any way that you can get the mechanic to go there?
 
Guano occurs. I’ve seen PBs where the process is underway and something is found. The Seller will not renegotiate so the Buyer has the Techs punch off the job and move on. How does the aircraft get back together? Who pays for what?

You should bring whoever will do your future Annuals on board from the big-go so they can guide the process on your behalf. Provide that person with copies of the Aircraft Records to review at the start. This could be a good time for your Test Flight.
Have the Seller’s Techs open the aircraft as desired and do the Comp Check and check oil filter. This is under the watchful eye of the Air Harbors mechanic. He/she can peek at aircraft at this time. Since your Tech is not performing maintenance or a required inspection their liability exposure is limited.

You are involving more people but for a shorter period of time. A guess would be 3 hrs for each of the Techs for this phase.

YMMV
 
I’d think you could make some headway without flying the plane away for a ‘prebuy’. You, or whatever mechanic or knowledgeable friend you take with, start with the plane history, hours, & logbooks. If it’s maintained at the home field, talk to them.

I say this with understanding of the current market, even with that in mind, red flags, or the seller being a tool, walk. I looked at an overpriced plane years ago, 1500 hours over 30 years, seller thought that was good. The reasoning was, ‘nobody messed up the factory engine’. It was overpriced anyway, sold two years later for $43k less.
 
Bringing a mechanic from my home field in Georgia seems costly (adding airfare at the very least). And I don’t have a mechanic in Georgia yet as this is my first plane.
 
Rgbeard said:
I wouldn't let anyone fly-away my plane for a pre-buy inspection.
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If the Seller said “personal reasons, not going to change my mind,” at least I wouldn’t have wasted my time trying to solve his “liability concerns” for the 16 mile flight.

asicer said:
Hasn't this plane already had a pre-buy, as discussed in this thread?
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/help-a-newbie-pre-buy-firewall.137049/
Who did that one?
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Yes. The buyer who backed out brought his mechanic from out of state (somewhere in the Northeast I think).
 
machkhatib said:
Yes. The buyer who backed out brought his mechanic from out of state (somewhere in the Northeast I think).
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Can you get a copy of that pre-buy? Maybe that will allay some of your fears. Perhaps you could show it to another mechanic as a way to hasten your future pre-buy, if you elect to have another one done.
 
Seller is a clown. Bid accordingly.

Frankly, I would bid whatever the man's asking price is, assuming it's reasonable, but then he covers EVERY airworthy item found by either shop. That they refused the prebuy tells me they have a modicum of integrity. Pick one and go to town. I would pick the one that did not do the annual last year, but only asking if he can do an impartial annual inspection for his friend's airplane.

$0.02.
 
asicer said:
Can you get a copy of that pre-buy? Maybe that will allay some of your fears. Perhaps you could show it to another mechanic as a way to hasten your future pre-buy, if you elect to have another one done.
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I already have that squawk list from the pre-buy. See the other thread. According to the seller, the biggest issue for the other buyer who backed out was the firewall patch.
 
machkhatib said:
I already have that squawk list from the pre-buy. See the other thread. According to the seller, the biggest issue for the other buyer who backed out was the firewall patch.
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If possible, I would get a hold of the mechanic that did the pre-buy and find out what they think of the patch.
 
Pic of patch to your IA should be sufficient. If you want to hire the PB mechanic
to explain the results of the survey you should expect to pay him/her.
My take is the List is the property of “Bob”. (Backed out Buyer).
 
Rgbeard said:
I wouldn't let anyone fly-away my plane for a pre-buy inspection.

One of those two mechanics needs to get over it and provide the service.

Or skip the pre-buy and roll the dice. Some of us have done that.
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I agree. I wouldn’t let somebody that wasn’t me take my plane elsewhere. When I bought my plane, I brought a mechanic with me to the owners home airport.
 
Why not get a mechanic to the aircraft rather than try to take the aircraft to the mechanic?

Ive had to do a number of inspections in a seller’s hangar or somewhere other than my home shop for various reasons. It happens.
 
mondtster said:
Why not get a mechanic to the aircraft rather than try to take the aircraft to the mechanic?
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Yes, I’m working on that angle. If anyone knows a good traveling pre-buy mechanic in the area, please let me know.
 
machkhatib said:
Yes, I’m working on that angle. If anyone knows a good traveling pre-buy mechanic in the area, please let me know.
Click to expand...

Get the guy that's 16 miles away who you were trying to take the airplane to, to get in his car (or airplane) and go over to take a look.

Be glad this is something simple like a cherokee, that everyone has seen. If it were something unique the coordination of an inspection by someone who knows what they're looking at would be a lot more difficult.
 
Pic of patch to your IA should be sufficient. If you want to hire the PB mechanic
to explain the results of the survey you should expect to pay him/her.
My take is the List is the property of “Bob”. (Backed out Buyer).
 
Wait a minute, why does the 16-mile-away mechanic care about his insurance coverage? He's not going to be performing maintenance, he's going to be looking at stuff. Where's the risk?
 
Always get a pre-buy when buying a plane and a home inspection when buying a home. You will always discover a problem, and the inspection/pre-buy will allow you to negotiate a further discount and/or repairs. The discount has always exceeded the cost of the inspection so it does pay off.

You will want an impartial pre-buy and not someone so close to the home airport. Without a prebuy you are taking a huge risk and I wouldn’t recommend it. If the Seller was not allowing you to take the plane for inspection then I would walk away. If you have serious expertise and knowledge then you might do the inspection yourself, but this should be very rare.

On the other hand, if I was selling I wouldn’t want the buyer to do a prebuy, who knows what can happen and what repairs you will be forced to do too.
 
I’m rather cynical and think there is a chapter to this seller/plane that is unheard. For a prebuy, the worst option is having the guy who has been working on it for years doing the prebuy. What’s he gonna do, dime himself out?

OP. Look at it from a business perspective like buying a business. Would you want the company accountant telling you the books are balanced or would you bring your own auditors to take a peak? Seriously. Something is wrong here.

With gas going up, inflation up, market swinging wildly, I think there is a real possibility of some throwing in the towel. Plane buying is an exercise in calculated patience. I suggest you move on for now.
 
I understand the sellers position. I don't want anyone flying my plane period. What if the mechanic finds a grounding issue with the airplane and now it's stuck at a different airport. Or like others have said, issues come up and you pull the plug on the pre-buy leaving him to sort out getting it home. If you think about it, it's quite sad that we feel mechanics can't be trusted to do their most basic job. idk if you are on Facebook but there is a guy that advertises on the Carolina Aviators Network group for doing mobile pre-buys and annuals. Given the fact he acts like these task can be completed in a day I can't imagine him being very thorough.
 
I’m not telling you what to do, buyers also have to be careful in this ‘sellers market’. One doesn’t want to be buying the pig covered in lipstick, however that looks. Put a few numbers here, engine hours, time since overhaul, panel.

I remember when I sold my trusty Warrior, 6 or so years ago, mid time engine, under 3000 hours on the airframe. One or 2 potential buyers said, ‘I can get one for $10k cheaper’. I’d say, go do it. Valuations can vary a good bit with planes, can easily be where the cheaper one isn’t the best deal.

Over the years I bought 3 planes. I did some homework but never had any official prebuy with any. Later I never felt something slipped through that I would of caught with a prebuy, no surprises.

Now if you buy a runout, 25 year old overhaul, periods of inactivity, all bets are off. That’s even if it’s reported as ‘great compressions’. Now is a great time to sell that hangar queen that’s been sitting around.

I went back & saw the linked plane in question, 1965 Piper. I don’t know prices now, likely near ballpark. If it was maintained by a local shop or mechanic, try calling them. Most have little to gain shilling for an owner they hardly know.
 
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My last buy, I rented an aircraft, two CFIs and a mechanic for a day. One CFI went back with me, the other went back with the A&P. and the rental plane. (The A&P was having issues with his medical at the time, otherwise he would have just flown the rental aircraft back himself. It was a 4 hour flight each way.
My A&P only needed about 30 minutes to verify any corrosion issues and check the engine. He was very experienced with PA32s and also checked a few 'trouble spot' issues. Was it worth it? I think so. I got a good plane, but it could also have been a plane that he rejected on sight.
This rental was the only C182R time I have. (I previously owned a 182, but not a retract.)
 
There is a mobile A&P that offers his service on the fb group Carolina Aviators Network (CAN). That might be an option for you.
 
Jeebus this is simple. Hire the guy 16 miles away. Pay him for the travel time, drive him to the airport where the airplane is. Have him do the inspection, truth be told there really isn't that much to inspect on a Cherokee. What @machkhatib pays for all this is chicken feed compared to the cost of owning an airplane. The only caveat from the Book of Steingar is it's a good idea to hire the guy who's going to be taking care of the airplane. But you does your best and takes your chances.
 
I bought my last airplane without a pre-purchase or even looking at the logs. I knew (and trusted) the seller, and knew (and trusted) the A&P who had been doing the annuals.

So far, so good.
 
Since we often talk about "buying" an aircraft here, and how to avoid pitfalls and all, sometimes we forget about the seller's point of view.

Remember, there is NO upside to a pre-buy for the seller other than allowing it to get sold. It's not like the buyer is going to discover what a wonderful plane it is and offer more money. When I bought my airplane the buyer did agree to fly it with me to another nearby airport for the pre-buy, but I can definitely see why that could be risky.

The seller would always prefer there be NO prebuy at all. When I sold my airplane, the buyer asked about having a prebuy at another airport. He wasn't going to be able to make it down for the pre-buy (he had seen the plane already), so asked if I would be willing to fly it over to get the prebuy done. Sure, I had no problem with this.

But then he made an error with potentially significant consequences - he asked ME for recommendations on shops to do the pre-buy. Well I'm a fair guy, and told him of two shops I know of that had not worked on the airplane, he picked one and I took it to them. Since I hadn't had any work done at these shops, I didn't know the quality of their work or anything, I just knew they existed. But as upstanding and morally correct as I am, it's not like I called around to them and other shops, seeing what they'd do, how thorough they'd be or any of that. That's his job and responsibility. I told him "There's shop A at KXXX and Shop B at KYYY, there are others but I know of these two". I could have easily recommended shops where I had friends or that owed me favors or something. Because, again, the prebuy has no upside for the seller. The seller would prefer that if a pre-buy is done, it be the most cursory glance any mechanic has ever taken.
 
RussR said:
Remember, there is NO upside to a pre-buy for the seller other than allowing it to get sold.
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Well, a pre-buy can confirm that the seller knows the condition of the airplane. And, getting the plane sold is the ENTIRE point of offering it for sale.

I will admit that when I sold my airplane there wasn't a pre-buy... but I cheated because I sold it to the IA who had been working on the airplane for the previous 9 years (extensive repairs/replacements and subsequent annual inspections).

Imagine trying to sell a house and not allowing a pre-buy inspection of the house.
 
Bob Noel said:
Well, a pre-buy can confirm that the seller knows the condition of the airplane. And, getting the plane sold is the ENTIRE point of offering it for sale.
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Yes, but given two buyers, one who wants a pre-buy and the other doesn't, and the same price, there's no advantage to the seller going with the pre-buy.

Imagine trying to sell a house and not allowing a pre-buy inspection of the house.
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If you had a buyer that didn't feel the need for an inspection, you would probably be very wise to sell to that person. Just like an airplane pre-buy, a house inspection is never good for the seller. Anything discovered needs to be disclosed to future buyers, etc., potentially lowering the sale price. If I legitimately don't know about some problem, then I am morally, ethically, and legally okay.

We practically had that situation just last month selling a house. We did allow an inspection as normal, but it was irrelevant for the purchase, as the offer and contract was "as-is" and not dependent on the outcome of that inspection. The inspection was purely for the buyer's use to know what to fix once they moved in.

But it doesn't seem in the OP's case that the seller isn't allowing a pre-buy. Just for some reason the buyer is having a hard time finding someone to do it.
 
RussR said:
If I legitimately don't know about some problem, then I am morally, ethically, and legally okay.
.
Click to expand...

I'll agree, but with a caveat. If I deliberately avoid confirming the condition of the plane (or house), iow - trying to invoke "plausible deniability", I don't believe I'd be on solid moral/ethical grounds.
 
My first step would be talking with the prebuy mechanic for the guy who backed out. He has already done a prebuy of that airplane. People seem to make this much more difficult than it needs to be!

And no, I would not let someone fly my airplane somewhere for a prebuy.
 
Sounds like I got lucky. I did a pre-buy for about 1k. Owner flew plane to meet at shop of my choice. Next am I met him at the airport and he + an a&p fixed the squawks from the pre-buy.

I personally would get a pre-buy. Something sounds a bit off. If the instructor met the open pilot cause of my insurance I would have no problem letting you and instructor test fly the aircraft so long as the instructor did the landing. Maybe he's cancelled his insurance already?
 
Bob Noel said:
I'll agree, but with a caveat. If I deliberately avoid confirming the condition of the plane (or house), iow - trying to invoke "plausible deniability", I don't believe I'd be on solid moral/ethical grounds.
Click to expand...

Yes, I can see how I left that opening in my statement. It's definitely not what I mean. I meant more like where the last annual was fine. Now there's a crack in the crankcase but it's not somewhere seen on a normal preflight and I haven't had reason to de-cowl the airplane yet, therefore I don't know about it. The buyer doesn't do a pre-buy and a week later the engine falls apart. In my mind, I am morally and ethically comfortable with myself, since I genuinely didn't know about it. I'll leave "legally" to the lawyers though.
 
machkhatib said:
Bringing a mechanic from my home field in Georgia seems costly (adding airfare at the very least). And I don’t have a mechanic in Georgia yet as this is my first plane.
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You should be finding/talking to one. They will likely give you way better advice that you will get here.

Brian
 
This sounds dodgy as all get out. I'd walk. As tough as the market is right now, I'd still walk.
 
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