Scared of my instructor

[Timbeck2]

As Rykymus said, we only have half of the story. My grandfather taught me as a small kid to not make judgement until you've heard both halves. I don't yell as an ATC instructor but I always tell new trainees the same schpeal. "If you screw (one particular training item) up once, I expect it because you're new. Screw it up a second time and I start to get concerned because you didn't learn it the first time. Screw it up a third time and you're going to pi$$ me off because you're wasting my time. It works. I've heard several times that I can be intimidating as an instructor but in the same breath, they say that I'm one of the most respected in the tower because of it.

In my days as a kid growing up in rural Arkansas, there wasn't a trophy for participation. There wasn't home schooling. Everyone was responsible for their own actions and it seemed everyone had the right to beat you if you screwed up. Today, it seems there are more and more kids who enter Air Traffic with a mindset that they're entitled to a rating. There are more suicides today because kids are not introduced to failure as a child. This is just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.

As I said, we've only read half of the story.

 

[dmspilot]

It is not even apparent what people are arguing over, since yelling can be anything from shouting at the top of one's lungs to talking louder than normal.

 

[murphey]

Well, for one thing, her screen name is German for "a female pilot."

Oh...I took spanish in high school.

 

[spiderweb]

. . . . So when someone makes a blanket statement that yelling is never appropriate, I start suspecting special snowflakes who have zero idea of what it is truly like in life and death situations, and the calm and resolve that is required to manage them. . . .

Yes. So for those "snowflakes" (as you aptly put it) who become fearful when their instructor yells, and decide they cannot take it, and subsequently assume they are receiving "sh?t" instruction (as someone else in this thread put it), I truly hope all their flights go smoothly and without incident. For if a student snowflake melts when an instructor raises her voice, how will the future pilot react when they lose an engine, have an electrical fire, or lose a gyro in IMC?

It was said above, and after thirty years of instruction, I agree: match the student with the right approach. Some students are hard on themselves, and some are quite cavalier and make dangerous excuses for themselves. The latter needs a bit of a drill sergeant.

 

[Velocity173]

Yes. So for those "snowflakes" (as you aptly put it) who become fearful when their instructor yells, and decide they cannot take it, assuming they are receiving "sh?t" instruction (as someone else in this thread put it), I truly hope all their flights go smoothly and without incident. For if a student snowflake melts when an instructor raises her voice, how will the future pilot react when they lose an engine, have an electrical fire, or lose a gyro in IMC?

It was said above, and after thirty years of instruction, I agree: match the student with the right approach. Some students are hard on themselves, and some are quite cavalier and make dangerous excuses for themselves. The latter needs a bit of a drill sergeant.

But yelling has nothing to do with preparing a student to react to an emergency. They react properly because of meaningful repetition. Training that has been ingrained by an instructor who enforces high standards. Training that includes proper distractions for the appropriate level of student.

This isn't yelling at a child who just drew on the wall with crayons either. This is an adult with a developed brain that understands critique. Yelling, especially for a foreign student with an entirely different culture will most likely end in total confusion.

Again, the DI thing doesn't apply because that's two different environments. You can't compare the stress that occurs with the chaos of war to the stress in Instrument flying. Perhaps if flying IFR in the NAS consisted of people screaming over the radio, flying through a barrage of fireworks and your passengers shooting blanks out the window, then you'd have a point. Personally, I think the yelling in boot camp does little to prepare one for the stress of combat anyway. Its more to induce a physical response without any care for your own well being...meaning, we can accept a few mistakes because the most important thing here is speed. Honestly, the never ending training you recieve after boot camp / OCS is what prepares one for the fog of war. Even then, no way of knowing how one will react under combat stress, until that time actually comes. I believe those that thrive are already predisposed to act a certain way based on their type personality.

An instructor yells in the cockpit for one of three reasons. They're old school and they believe it's something that was done to them, so why not continue the tradition. Or, like I said, they don't like their job and they're just in a bad mood so they take it out on the student Or, something that I've personally seen, they can't handle the stress that student places on them, so their natural reaction is to raise their voice and vent. None of those three will be productive in getting a grown adult to perform better. At the very least, it's unprofessional.

 

[spiderweb]

This isn't yelling at a child who just drew on the wall with crayons either. This is an adult with a developed brain that understands critique.

And therin lies the problem. There are adults who have developed brains with the amazing capacity to make dangerous excuses for themselves, and no matter how many times one calmly attempts to correct this, the repetition proves usesless.

Again, the DI thing doesn't apply because that's two different environments. You can't compare the stress that occurs with the chaos of war to the stress in Instrument flying.

Sure you can. What crosses people's minds when they lose control in severe turbulence? How about smoke in the cockpit? Loss of elevator control? That's stressful to the point of knowing one may die. Granted, it isn't constant, and may never happen, but here's the thing: it COULD and DOES happen. If we treat our students like snowflakes, or worse--ignore their dangerous excuses for themselves after poor performance, we are doing them a disservice, and they may end up dead, to be blunt.

An instructor yells in the cockpit for one of three reasons. They're old school and they believe it's something that was done to them, so why not continue the tradition. Or, like I said, they don't like their job and they're just in a bad mood so they take it out on the student Or, something that I've personally seen, they can't handle the stress that student places on them, so their natural reaction is to raise their voice and vent. None of those three will be productive in getting a grown adult to perform better. At the very least, it's unprofessional.

While I do agree that your three reasons instructors yell are often the case, those reasons are not always the case, and a flexible teacher knows how to adjust their approach to students who refuse to face facts. (And again, for the OP, yelling 80% of the time is ridiculous--I obviously agree with that!) But I just simply disagree there are only those three reasons you propose.

I have to agree with the people who posted above who say that some students need a drill sergeant.

 

[Rykymus]

My daughter used to regularly complain that I was yelling at her. I finally demonstrated what yelling really was. She doesnt complain any longer. One person's raised tone is another person's yelling. If I raise my voice much anove a whisper my wife tells me to stop shouting. (I got a good set of lungs from my father who was an opera singer.)

 

[spiderweb]

My daughter used to regularly complain that I was yelling at her. I finally demonstrated what yelling really was. She doesnt complain any longer. One person's raised tone is another person's yelling. If I raise my voice much anove a whisper my wife tells me to stop shouting. (I got a good set of lungs from my father who was an opera singer.)

Good point.

I think I might agree with some of the "anti-yellers" here, if what they mean is irrational screaming at the top of one's lungs. That has no purpose unless one is about to get shot.

 

[denverpilot]

Good point.

I think I might agree with some of the "anti-yellers" here, if what they mean is irrational screaming at the top of one's lungs. That has no purpose unless one is about to get shot.

Still has no purpose, even then... but it's a common thing to do.

 

[spiderweb]

. . . .

In my days as a kid growing up in rural Arkansas, there wasn't a trophy for participation. . . . .

And when that approach starts to bleed into aviation training--"no matter what you do, you're wonderful and talented, and I'll listen patiently as you make excuses for yourself"--well, when that happens, those coddled in that way may not be prepared for the serious business of flying, especially under urgent conditions or emergencies.

 

[Velocity173]

And when that approach starts to bleed into aviation training--"no matter what you do, you're wonderful and talented, and I'll listen patiently as you make excuses for yourself"--well, when that happens, those coddled in that way may not be prepared for the serious business of flying, especially under urgent conditions or emergencies.

Now you're confusing not yelling as treating one like a snowflake. Basically saying that type of approach is allowing the student to slide their way to a certificate. Two different things again.

You can counsel someone in a calm, professional way, and that they have some serious errors to correct. You can also apply the training standards stringently in order to prevent that student from continuing. For instance, going through warrant officer candidate school, myself and others were called into the instructor's office for excess demerits. The TAC officer (warrant) told me in the coldest, most stone faced demeanor, that my performance was lacking and that I might not have the mettle to join the warrant officer corps. That has a way of motivating one without yelling simply because of the importance we placed on being warrants. Just like later on as an IP and I would critique a student's performance in the same demeanor and put a big fat "U" on their grade slip, then tell them the consequences of their poor performance. If the student holds value in becoming a pilot and if they see that goal in jeopardy, they'll work harder at achieving it. That's why warrants are called "quiet professionals." That sort of approach has a much more desired effect than a hot head who can't control their emotions. It's not the loudest one in the room...

I look at it this way, if an instructor lets a student get under their skin to the point of yelling, I wonder how they would react in a truly stressful situation. If I yelled at my students they would wonder the same thing. I wanted my students to not only believe I had complete mastery of my aircraft but had my emotions in check as well. That's called setting the example and being a professional.

 

[jordane93]

NSFW!!!!

 

[GaryV]

If you're not comfortable with your instructor I don't think you're going to learn much.

One of the things I really liked about the group I took my accelerated instrument training from was the big sign they have that said something to the effect of 'this isn't boot camp, flying is supposed to be fun'. The people I met and worked with at that facility took that message to heart. The week spent getting my IFR was one of the best vacations I've had.

Gary

 

[spiderweb]

None of what you say is untrue, yet a "cold, stone-faced" reproach does not equate to the situation we were discussing earlier--dire, with the real possibility of imminent death.

The reason drill sergeants are not all like Christopher Walken in Biloxi Blues, is that (as you pointed out above) when a someone learns to survive an atmosphere of extreme emotion and stress, and come out alive, it -may- translate to when they are put into extreme and imminent danger, i.e. someone is shooting at you, you lose an engine, fire in the cockpit--all situations in which death is a real possibility.

By the time you went for warrant officer candidate school, you already had had that training. It was assumed. So then it became more important to stress personal excellence and consistent performance--attributes which are NOT learnt well from a drill sergeant-type TAC officer.

There is a time and place for most approaches.

The funny part about this whole discussion is in the 30 years of instructing, I have NEVER yelled or even raised my voice once to any of my students. I guess it is just not part of my personality.

I just never thought it was wrong, or that I was getting "sh?tty instruction" when my teachers had yelled at me occasionally, all those years ago. Their excellence as professionals and instructors were proven by their track record, and I had no cause to second guess any approach they saw fit to use.

Now you're confusing not yelling as treating one like a snowflake. Basically saying that type of approach is allowing the student to slide their way to a certificate. Two different things again.

You can counsel someone in a calm, professional way, and that they have some serious errors to correct. You can also apply the training standards stringently in order to prevent that student from continuing. For instance, going through warrant officer candidate school, myself and others were called into the instructor's office for excess demerits. The TAC officer (warrant) told me in the coldest, most stone faced demeanor, that my performance was lacking and that I might not have the mettle to join the warrant officer corps. That has a way of motivating one without yelling simply because of the importance we placed on being warrants. Just like later on as an IP and I would critique a student's performance in the same demeanor and put a big fat "U" on their grade slip, then tell them the consequences of their poor performance. If the student holds value in becoming a pilot and if they see that goal in jeopardy, they'll work harder at achieving it. That's why warrants are called "quiet professionals." That sort of approach has a much more desired effect than a hot head who can't control their emotions. It's not the loudest one in the room...

I look at it this way, if an instructor lets a student get under their skin to the point of yelling, I wonder how they would react in a truly stressful situation. If I yelled at my students they would wonder the same thing. I wanted my students to not only believe I had complete mastery of my aircraft but had my emotions in check as well. That's called setting the example and being a professional.

 

[ken wasson]

Took this from an article on AOPA.

Does he raise his voice or make inappropriate comments? This is a big one. There's no place in the cockpit for tempers, yelling, destructive comments, or anything else that makes the student feel uncomfortable. This is one area in which the student doesn't need to seek out advice, talk to the chief instructor, or wait it out to see if things get better. If the instructor makes you uncomfortable, drop him.


This is what I did, and I have a ton of patience, but if my CFI yelled at me one more time I would have taken his aircraft and stuck it up his......
My replacement CFI was great and never yelled. I observed several other CFI's and they were completely different. Be careful who you pick from the beginning.

 

[Tantalum]

As I recently minted CFI it is pretty interesting working with people who'd had instructors before and hearing some of the horror stories

I'm still relatively green to the instructor world but given my experiences it is important to always stay patient

If someone isn't getting something that means they're not learning, which ultimately is a failure of the instructor. IMO

Now, flying might not be for everyone, but that conversation is also for the instructor to have with the student. If the personalities don't vibe well it's on the instructor to recommend to the student another CFI

$0.02

 

[ken wasson]

As I recently minted CFI it is pretty interesting working with people who'd had instructors before and hearing some of the horror stories

I'm still relatively green to the instructor world but given my experiences it is important to always stay patient

If someone isn't getting something that means they're not learning, which ultimately is a failure of the instructor. IMO

Now, flying might not be for everyone, but that conversation is also for the instructor to have with the student. If the personalities don't vibe well it's on the instructor to recommend to the student another CFI

$0.02

I didn’t get yelled at because I wasn’t getting something, although many questions I had went unanswered. The last and final time he started yelling at me because he said I was drifting off heading back to the airport. When i pointed out that HE was looking in the wrong place for the airport he got real quiet and didn’t say two words the rest of the flight home….I later found out he had a reputation for this. Too bad for me because of the wasted time and money, too bad for him because if it wasn’t for this undesirable trait he would be a good cfi.

 

[Gary Ward]

Got to wonder whatever happened to the OP from years ago. Hopefully she is still flying.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If someone isn't getting something that means they're not learning, which ultimately is a failure of the instructor. IMO

Maybe, maybe not. It is good for the instructor in such a situation to ask ‘what can I do differently to help this student understand?’

That should be the default approach for the instructor initially.

But, it is also important to recognize that some folks just aren’t cut out for things like flying. That’s a tuff conversation and certainly shouldn’t be the default approach, but I think we have a responsibility to not waste people’s money and keep them safe.

That said, yelling at the student in the 21st century is almost never the appropriate action.

 

[Albany Tom]

Times were different back in the 40's, or 2017 or whatever. It's no longer considered "OK" to stand on top of an oil tank and yell "look at me, ma, top of the world!"

 

[texasclouds]

If he scares you, scare him back. Wait until he is all relaxed then roll inverted!

 

[RussR]

That said, yelling at the student in the 21st century is almost never the appropriate action.

I don't think it's ever been the appropriate action. It may have been "expected" and "commonplace" in the past, but that doesn't make it appropriate.

 

[Dudley Henriques]

My instructor yells at me the 80 percent of the time we fly. I was fine with it at first since i knew i am still bad at controlling the plane so I kinda thought I deserve. Well i am not still good but .. maybe i am slow learner!! I was being told I am a good pilot from examiner and my former instructors when I was doing PPL.

But now I am feeling like I am really losing the confidence. I am getting really nervous before i go fly with him. My knees are shaking. I am crying almost every time on the way back home. Lol
I am just worried, my performance is influenced from this nervousness. I make a lot of mistakes with ATC. (Never had problem with this before).. fixated, my feet on the rudder pedal starts shaking lol oh my gosh....

But my school doesn't offer other options. I have visa expiring soon and got time plans to keep up with for the job. So the best is finishing with him and go home. Any tips please? Honestly this guy is good with teaching.. just the way carrying is it a bit mean.... I know he is trying to help me but i am getting weak :/ How should I survive and stay strong here?

I've been teaching flight instructors for about 60 years now and I am always amazed when a student finds themselves flying with a "shouting CFI".
I could go on for an hour about how wrong a pedagogy this is but I won't. I've written many articles on the subject and to be quite frank I'm getting a bit tired of repeating myself. LOL
I'll simply say that although there are always those who will tout having flown with a "shouting" instructor and "turned out ok", the simple truth is that this type of instruction is NOT optimum and in all too many cases produces a student who has proceeded through the program by rote instead of a more comprehensive result. And YES...there is always the exception........but generally speaking, the "shouting" CFI and the normal student pilot is a very poor pairing.
There are many ways one can learn to fly an airplane. Given the worst instructor on the planet, the average student with average intelligence can eventually be taught to fly. But the process is bad. The usual result is that the student, wading through all the shouting and bad instruction, will eventually through trial and error if nothing else, by rote, learn to fly the airplane.
What is surprising for many instructors to discover is that in the end analysis when a student is paired with a bad instructor, the student actually becomes their own instructor and the unspoken learning process transfers over from the instructor to the student as the student learns through trial and error what the bad instructor could have taught the student by using better technique.
What's REALLY sad about all this is that in many cases not involving EXTREMELY poor technique being used by a bad instructor the student simply accepts the bad technique as normal and becomes a victim of their lack of knowledge. Eventually finishing the program they enter the pilot community never realizing there was a "better way".
Dudley Henriques