Scared of my instructor

spiderweb said:
Disagree. There is a time and a place for a very vigorous and vocal chewing out. ......
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In aviation there is not, outside from the movies, and this ain't the set of Top Gun or Full Metal Jacket, it's real life and it's aviation.

If the CFI can't control his temper and he is yelling, much like a petulant child, he needs to clean out his desk and go home, the industry has no time for that crap, and his students deserve more.
 
James331 said:
In aviation there is not, outside from the movies, and this ain't the set of Top Gun or Full Metal Jacket, it's real life and it's aviation.

If the CFI can't control his temper and he is yelling, much like a petulant child, he needs to clean out his desk and go home, the industry has no time for that crap, and his students deserve more.
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Do you always lose your temper when you yell? Are you crying like a petulant child when you yell?

Furthermore, if yelling "scares" you, how much would, say, an engine out? Wing fire? ATC chewing you out?

I think that aviation is one of those areas where one has to have a thicker skin.

Having said that, re-reading the OP's post, it looks like the yelling is the MAIN thing the CFI is doing. In this case, I totally agree with you. He or she should get a new CFI.
 
DFH65 said:
Yell back!
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WannFly said:
carry a .45 next time and tell him your small firearms instructor told you to use it when you are scared, you practiced it enough times that now its a involuntary muscle reflex
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Here's a better solution.
yglgx.gif
 
I'm a cfi, and while I don't do it but two days a week if that, so I'm not under the stress of doing it daily. I've only raised my voice to a student one time, and that was because he put the plane into a spin on power on stall practice and didn't let go of the controls when I asked. I would never yell at my students and would be ashamed if a student was afraid of me. I hate to say it, but if you want to learn right, you need a new instructor, you can't properly learn something as complex as flying while your scared. If you live in the Detroit Michigan area, pm me, I'll teach you.
 
spiderweb said:
and this.
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But you can't use the training benefits of yelling in the military and apply them to civilian flight training.

You have two types of yelling in the military. You have yelling in boot camp / OCS and then yelling that takes place later on. The yelling that takes place in boot camp / OCS is, well, fake. They're professionals and are there to purposely create an intense event. It's there to stimulate and put duress on that person to prepare them for combat. As said above, it's also there to tear down an individual and rebuild them. Yelling has a positive effect.

Yelling that takes place after boot camp / OCS in flight training is usually due to an instructor who is sick and tired of their job, or has personal issues and takes it out on the student. Luckily I never had yellers in flight training but I was pretty solid so I never gave them a chance to yell in the first place. Later on as an instructor, I was pretty laid back and never once yelled at a student. I demanded high standards but when those weren't met, I simply told the student in calm, professional manner that they weren't meeting the standard that I expected out of them. Yelling, won't make them smarter and it won't make them try harder in the future.

Without any recording of said CFI, there's no way of telling if this so called yelling is actually happening. The OP is a foreign student and possibly a stern critique is considered yelling. I don't know. It could be actual yelling with degrading comments and expletives. I don't know. It would be nice to get specific examples to base an opinion on though.
 
spiderweb said:
Do you always lose your temper when you yell? Are you crying like a petulant child when you yell?

Furthermore, if yelling "scares" you, how much would, say, an engine out? Wing fire? ATC chewing you out?

I think that aviation is one of those areas where one has to have a thicker skin.

Having said that, re-reading the OP's post, it looks like the yelling is the MAIN thing the CFI is doing. In this case, I totally agree with you. He or she should get a new CFI.
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Lol, barking up the wrong tree bud

For one I don't yell, shy of being at a packed concert or open cockpit with no intercom or something, in a cockpit with a working intercom, no, as a gold seal a few times over CFI, I have not found the need to yell.

As far as scared, I've had full engine failures, landed in a dry riverbed, didn't even scratch the paint.

ATC, well I fly in some of the busiest airspace on earth, and due to the type of flying I do I'm sometimes a little pushy, never had a problem.

Again yelling or raising your voice with a student in a plane = crap instruction.
 
Ah yes, the old TBI, Training By Intimidation technique.
RIght up there with the idiot who kept an 18" ruler in his left hand and fwhapped students on the head whenever they messed up. Hilarious to think it survives to this century!
 
Harold Rutila said:
This is not acceptable. Your instructor is probably overworked. You're probably not getting the attention you need to understand fundamental concepts before you get into the airplane. You're probably not getting precise explanations as to what you can do to improve. The end result is a bad training experience.

You either need to find a new instructor or find a new school. If your school is tied to your visa, find another school that can sponsor your visa and go there. There's a saying "Speak with your feet." In other words, tell your flight school that you're dissatisfied by leaving and learning to fly somewhere else.
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OP will have to go thru TSA approval process again to change school. Takes time

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Why do you think I was talking about you?

You decided, in your reply, to link yelling with a "petulant child" and "losing temper," in your words. I hold that you can yell without those two elements present.

In the second part, I was describing a hypothetical student who might be afraid of yelling, and therefore might not be able to handle the far more anxiety-inducing situations I described within the post.

Why you believed I was applying them to you, and not the hypothetical student, is puzzling.

James331 said:
Lol, barking up the wrong tree bud

For one I don't yell, shy of being at a packed concert or open cockpit with no intercom or something, in a cockpit with a working intercom, no, as a gold seal a few times over CFI, I have not found the need to yell.

As far as scared, I've had full engine failures, landed in a dry riverbed, didn't even scratch the paint.

ATC, well I fly in some of the busiest airspace on earth, and due to the type of flying I do I'm sometimes a little pushy, never had a problem.

Again yelling or raising your voice with a student in a plane = crap instruction.
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James331 said:
Lol, barking up the wrong tree bud

For one I don't yell, shy of being at a packed concert or open cockpit with no intercom or something, in a cockpit with a working intercom, no, as a gold seal a few times over CFI, I have not found the need to yell.

As far as scared, I've had full engine failures, landed in a dry riverbed, didn't even scratch the paint.

ATC, well I fly in some of the busiest airspace on earth, and due to the type of flying I do I'm sometimes a little pushy, never had a problem.

Again yelling or raising your voice with a student in a plane = crap instruction.
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Velocity173 said:
Without any recording of said CFI, there's no way of telling if this so called yelling is actually happening. The OP is a foreign student and possibly a stern critique is considered yelling. I don't know. It could be actual yelling with degrading comments and expletives. I don't know. It would be nice to get specific examples to base an opinion on though.
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Exactly. I think many here assume that yelling automatically equates to losing one's temper, swearing, etc.

However, as I said above, even if it is just a raised voice, if it really is 80% of the time, it is way too much.
 
In our flying club we have three instructors: one that is like a drill sergeant, one that is like an airline pilot (Very by the book, and precise), and one gentleman who is just as calm as can be.

When I recommend an instructor for new club members, I try to assess their personality, tell them of the three personality types we have available to them and help them choose the instructor

Sometimes, they need the drill instructor, and they know it.
 
Velocity173 said:
But you can't use the training benefits of yelling in the military and apply them to civilian flight training.

You have two types of yelling in the military. You have yelling in boot camp / OCS and then yelling that takes place later on. The yelling that takes place in boot camp / OCS is, well, fake. They're professionals and are there to purposely create an intense event. It's there to stimulate and put duress on that person to prepare them for combat. As said above, it's also there to tear down an individual and rebuild them. Yelling has a positive effect.
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Do you see no crossover at all into the aviation training environment? In fact, you make my point better than I did: sometimes the yelling "purposely creates an intense event. . . . to stimulate and put duress on that person. . . . Yelling has a positive effect" Wholeheartedly agree.

Guess what? Intense events happen in aviation, and the combination of training and resilience which, yes, can sometimes be instilled with "fake yelling" (but not that, alone) prepares the aviator for those emergency situations. It isn't exclusive to the military--or even flying for that matter.
 
RalphInCA said:
In our flying club we have three instructors: one that is like a drill sergeant, one that is like an airline pilot (Very by the book, and precise), and one gentleman who is just as calm as can be.

When I recommend an instructor for new club members, I try to assess their personality, tell them of the three personality types we have available to them and help them choose the instructor

Sometimes, they need the drill instructor, and they know it.
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. . . and you made my point better AND more concisely than I did!
 
spiderweb said:
Why do you think I was talking about you?

You decided, in your reply, to link yelling with a "petulant child" and "losing temper," in your words. I hold that you can yell without those two elements present.

In the second part, I was describing a hypothetical student who might be afraid of yelling, and therefore might not be able to handle the far more anxiety-inducing situations I described within the post.

Why you believed I was applying them to you, and not the hypothetical student, is puzzling.
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Because you quoted me on your response :dunno:
 
Well ...did this thread turn into yelling?

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Velocity173 said:
My instructors in the military yelled at me and I turned out fine.
:D

The instructor's handbook states that a calm demeanor is one of the positive traits of a good instructor. While "yellling" can be somewhat subjective, it doesn't sound like the OP's instructor is the poster child of CFIs. The CFI is being paid to give you meaningful, constructive critique on your performance. If you're not getting that, ask for another instructor.
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Spending 7 figures to train someone to be on the pointy end of the spear is a little different than what the op's goals are as a civilian pilot.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Spending 7 figures to train someone to be on the pointy end of the spear is a little different than what the op's goals are as a civilian pilot.
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I would argue that it isn't is different as one might think. Crumbling under pressure--whether in the military or when piloting an aircraft--can have deadly results.

Hell, I have benefited from some good , loud chewings-out from my cello instructors, back when I was a cello student, which helped make me nearly without nerves when I perform solo. I appreciated it, and understood them--and I was never even in physical danger, as one can find oneself in an aviation emergency, or in a forward position.
 
Steve Costello said:
Since when is yelling an acceptable contribution to CRM? Unless the CFI's life is in danger, there is simply no excuse for yelling in the cockpit environment.

If you have the option, I would recommend finding a different CFI. If you don't have the option, then the heart-to-heart is a good plan, because that CFI needs to understand that yelling at students is not acceptable.

If I had a CFI yell at me, I would fire him/her instantly. Beyond unprofessional.
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For me it all depends. My first, and still favorite, CFI (and I have nothing against the many wonderful CFIs I've studied with over the years, but my first was special) raised his voice for emphasis a number of times, though he was soft-spoken and courteous nearly all the time other than that. His "yelling" did startle me when it happened, and it had the desired effect: I sat up and took notice that I was doing something that could get me killed and I had better correct my technique. That's a valuable, and important kind of "yelling" that I don't consider unprofessional in the least.

The difference here is that the OP reports actually being AFRAID OF HIS CFI. That sounds like a relationship that's gone off the rails and if the OP can't confront the CFI and get a change in behavior, then I agree that the only fix is to find a different instructor. There is just nothing good about being emotionally stressed out due to personal interactions every time you fly with a CFI. If it's to the point of shedding tears as the OP said, then it's even worse. This isn't a sustainable situation and the OP needs to do something about it.

OP, can you sit down and talk to the CFI? Let him know how you feel about his behavior? If you can, maybe you can salvage the relationship. If not, you need to find another instructor post haste, because you won't learn well or quickly if you're scared sh!&less of your CFI, and the experience will leave you with bad memories of what should be an exciting, if challenging and roller-coasterish time (no pun intended). If you don't have the time left to find a different CFI then you need to confront him now, if you can.

I really hope you are able to resolve this in a way that you are satisfied with. Good luck!
 
My CFI raised his voice with me one time only... right after we cleared the runway he lit into me over something I had done. It was deserved and him doing so - given his usual calm demeanor - really made me understand the seriousness of my mistake.

If yelling had been a daily thing or even a more than once every few flights or so thing, I would have found a new instructor.
 
RalphInCA said:
In our flying club we have three instructors: one that is like a drill sergeant, one that is like an airline pilot (Very by the book, and precise), and one gentleman who is just as calm as can be.

When I recommend an instructor for new club members, I try to assess their personality, tell them of the three personality types we have available to them and help them choose the instructor

Sometimes, they need the drill instructor, and they know it.
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Add to that the fact a CFI can alternate between styles in an attempt to push the right buttons to get through the fog of learning. Some students like to be coddled, but need to be spanked. Others are over-confident and need the rug quietly pulled out from under to emphasize a point in an understated manner, say, by letting a poor stall recovery degenerate to a spin entry without saying a word. I think teaching is both an art and a practice. Some students aren't willing to go along with the give and take.

dtuuri
 
Yelling at me when flying will get you kicked out of the plane, instructor or not. There's tough love instruction and there's yelling. If you're having to yell at a student, one of you needs to quit. Either the instructor can't instruct or the student can't learn.

I had an aerobatic instructor who when sitting behind me in his Decathlon would peck me in the back of the head and ask if I left my right foot at home! ****ed me off a few times, but I learned a lot from him and earned his respect. Meant more to me than any other accomplishment I've had in aviation. I wrote a story about him one time. I flew his plane a lot and I still live by one of his sayings... "If you ever have that perfect flight, the one where you couldn't have improved on anything, hand me the keys to my plane and don't ever fly it again."
 
My first discovery flight in a 150 way back in 1971...instructor said "That is the trim wheel, learn how to use it and I won't yell at you"...I said "YOU won't yell at me anyway"...and went to another flight school.

From the instructors viewpoint....training non English people requires a special level of instruction and patience. Not knowing either of the two parties involved, we can only speculate as to the truth of the situation.

Case in point....I was teaching a Saudi man basic maneuvers and I during a ground based maneuver I said that you need to turn steeper. His reply was "What is steep". I had reached a point of frustration of trying to teach flying and English that I said "just go back to the airport, we are done today".
No anger or yelling but I was mentally done. We sat down in the training room and I taught him English (I even had him saying YA'LL) and he went on to do well. The airplane is a terrible teaching environment for some things.

I only yelled at one student in my time of teaching and in fact told him to leave the airport and never come back. Sent this guy off on a XC late in the afternoon (against my better wishes and due to his work schedule) with the EXPLICIT instructions of fly to the airport, land, use the bathroom get a drink and logbook signed and head immediately back and he would have approximately one hour before dark. He had everything planned and we discussed this on his lunch break at work before coming to the airport...I checked the weather etc my self during the afternoon and it was perfect. He came to the airport immediately and did his preflight and (I already had the airplane fueled and ready) we talked about the flight and he jumped in and left. This particular flight was to follow I-40 from one airport to the next and return. About the time frame of him returning I started listening and calling while up with another student. On the ground I called flight service to check his flight plan and found out that despite my rule, he didn't file one. Called the FBO and they said that "Yes, he was here, got his logbook signed, and had ate a hamburger at the airport restaurant! When did he leave? About 45 minutes ago! That would put him back 30 minutes after full dark. Needless to say he finally showed up and I met him on the wing. I don't curse but that night I did. The FBO owner had stayed and after he paid his bill sat back to see what was going to happen. I went over everything he did wrong (including not bringing a snack as I told him to - specifically said you will not have time to waste eating) and then I said "There is the door, do not come back through it". FBO owner said "Bye Bye, we don't need your money".
 
Lowflynjack said:
"If you ever have that perfect flight, the one where you couldn't have improved on anything, hand me the keys to my plane and don't ever fly it again."
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I like that Jack.
I often say to my F/O after one of us makes a mistake during the preflight..."Well there goes the proverbial perfect flight, so lets relax and just do the job".
 
spiderweb said:
Do you see no crossover at all into the aviation training environment? In fact, you make my point better than I did: sometimes the yelling "purposely creates an intense event. . . . to stimulate and put duress on that person. . . . Yelling has a positive effect" Wholeheartedly agree.

Guess what? Intense events happen in aviation, and the combination of training and resilience which, yes, can sometimes be instilled with "fake yelling" (but not that, alone) prepares the aviator for those emergency situations. It isn't exclusive to the military--or even flying for that matter.
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No, I don't see the crossover. The military instructors are yelling and in the old days, using physical abuse to prepare their "students" for the violence of war. The DIs are trying to induce chaos. I don't see where yelling and even physical abuse while flying would help an IFR student. Especially a foreign one. The student is already overloaded, the yelling is just going to distract them from the act of flying and make things worse. The CFI should swiftly and calmly correct the mistake and move on.

If you want the student to understand the implications of their mistake, you bring it up in debrief AFTER the flight when the student has time to fully grasp what they did. A much more valuable lesson is learned when the instructor uses examples (accident case studies) that relate to the student's error. That's proper CRM. Calmly show them, this is the mistake that you made and if I weren't there, it could've evolved into something much more serious.

Also, in the military they turn the yelling on and off when required. When a period of instruction is given, the DI doesn't use yelling for intimidation because that will restrict the learning process. Once that period of instruction is over, the hat goes back on and yelling begins to get the desired effect of PHYSICAL speed.

There's getting the student to perform by constantly pushing them and keeping them on their toes, then there's degrading a student by yelling at them. "What the **** are you doing?! Why the **** did you turn that way?!" The later has little to do with a conducive training environment. A lot of times I've seen yellers in aviation because they've 1) gotten themselves in a position of authority and 2) are sick and tired of their jobs so they take it out on a student. Seen some that aren't even very knowledgeable in the first place. Whether or not that's the case with the OP's situation remains to be seen.
 
70 posts in and the OP never returned. I think you're all getting your chain yanked.

But anyway. All yelling in a cockpit does is shut down communication. Student is already saturated. Yell and they're now 100% saturated and they'll shut right down and not hear anything after that for a while and they'll be adding it to the playback loop in their head until hours after the flight.

If you have some NEED to get something across that's so dangerous that you WANT them remembering it for hours, days, years, after the fight... fine... yell if you must. It'd better be damned important. And then just go land. The rest of that flight is worthless.

80% of the time? Something wrong there.
 
azure said:
For me it all depends. My first, and still favorite, CFI (and I have nothing against the many wonderful CFIs I've studied with over the years, but my first was special) raised his voice for emphasis a number of times, though he was soft-spoken and courteous nearly all the time other than that. His "yelling" did startle me when it happened, and it had the desired effect: I sat up and took notice that I was doing something that could get me killed and I had better correct my technique. That's a valuable, and important kind of "yelling" that I don't consider unprofessional in the least.

The difference here is that the OP reports actually being AFRAID OF HIS CFI. That sounds like a relationship that's gone off the rails and if the OP can't confront the CFI and get a change in behavior, then I agree that the only fix is to find a different instructor. There is just nothing good about being emotionally stressed out due to personal interactions every time you fly with a CFI. If it's to the point of shedding tears as the OP said, then it's even worse. This isn't a sustainable situation and the OP needs to do something about it.

OP, can you sit down and talk to the CFI? Let him know how you feel about his behavior? If you can, maybe you can salvage the relationship. If not, you need to find another instructor post haste, because you won't learn well or quickly if you're scared sh!&less of your CFI, and the experience will leave you with bad memories of what should be an exciting, if challenging and roller-coasterish time (no pun intended). If you don't have the time left to find a different CFI then you need to confront him now, if you can.

I really hope you are able to resolve this in a way that you are satisfied with. Good luck!
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Sitting down with the CFI when the OP is already afraid of him can be a worse mistake. To the OP, Is there another student or CFI that you are friendly with? Explain the problem to them and ask them to come with you - moral support. Then the two of you talk with the owner of the school - unless that's the CFI. Or the two of you talk with the CFI.

There may be cultural,differences that make it difficult for this student to confront the CFI. The CFi is in a position of power and authority and for many, that's not easy to overcome.

Question - why did anyone here automatically assume the OP is female because of the comment they cry on the way back from the lesson?
 
spiderweb said:
Is yelling automatically "crap instruction?"
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Yes, you are a sh?t instructor if you are yelling at a student. Period, end of story. Over 2000 dual given and never had to raise my voice once.
Assuming the airplane has a working intercom.

Now all the sh?t instructors can reply with their little girl whiney excuses about why it was okay or justified when they did it. It wasn't.

Now of course I will yell at a student tomorrow because thats how life works.


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murphey said:
Sitting down with the CFI when the OP is already afraid of him can be a worse mistake. To the OP, Is there another student or CFI that you are friendly with? Explain the problem to them and ask them to come with you - moral support. Then the two of you talk with the owner of the school - unless that's the CFI. Or the two of you talk with the CFI.

There may be cultural,differences that make it difficult for this student to confront the CFI. The CFi is in a position of power and authority and for many, that's not easy to overcome.

Question - why did anyone here automatically assume the OP is female because of the comment they cry on the way back from the lesson?
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I'm not sure that anything can make this situation worse, but I agree, if the OP feels unable to confront the CFI, then moral support from a fellow student certainly can't hurt and might help. It all depends on the person and their way of dealing with interpersonal conflict.

And I didn't see anyone assuming the OP was female! Did I miss something? But I agree, it's a rather sexist leap to assume the OP is female because of that. OTOH, what little I know of German would tend to support that (s)he indeed is - the suffix "in" at the end of the screen name, and all.
 
Melting said:
Yes, you are a sh?t instructor if you are yelling at a student. Period, end of story...

Now all the sh?t instructors can reply with their little girl whiney excuses about why it was okay or justified when they did it. It wasn't.
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:( Please stop yelling at us! All that swearing is very offensive to my tiny little sensitive ears too.

dtuuri
 
Most Americans have never made a serious effort to become fluent is another language. Many who speak English as a second language and appear to be fluent, are actually struggling when interacting with someone who doesn't appreciate their limitations. This instructor may be one of those people. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but perhaps a discussion between einepilotin and the instructor could make him aware and sensitive to this issue, if it is an issue.
 
murphey said:
Sitting down with the CFI when the OP is already afraid of him can be a worse mistake. To the OP, Is there another student or CFI that you are friendly with? Explain the problem to them and ask them to come with you - moral support. Then the two of you talk with the owner of the school - unless that's the CFI. Or the two of you talk with the CFI.

There may be cultural,differences that make it difficult for this student to confront the CFI. The CFi is in a position of power and authority and for many, that's not easy to overcome.

Question - why did anyone here automatically assume the OP is female because of the comment they cry on the way back from the lesson?
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That's funny, because I automatically assumed it was a male.
 
There are appropriate times for yelling, even in flight training. In the cockpit, probably not, unless you're about to die.

When I was a medic intern, I got yelled at. I even got forcefully pushed out of the way and nearly knocked over (and I'm not a small guy) when I wasn't reacting fast enough to a life and death situation. I never forgot that, and I never made that mistake again. So when someone makes a blanket statement that yelling is never appropriate, I start suspecting special snowflakes who have zero idea of what it is truly like in life and death situations, and the calm and resolve that is required to manage them.

The thing I find odd about this thread is that everyone is assuming that the OP is right, and the instructor is wrong. For all we know, the OP has screwed up time and again, and has repeatedly put the two of them in danger. Just because the OP has her/his PPL doesn't mean that he/she will make a good instrument pilot. The instructor could be at his/her's wits end, and simply cannot help but yell out of frustration. I precepted a LOT of medic interns over my 12 years in EMS, and I yelled at several that just were not getting it, and were putting lives at risk on a daily basis. One special snowflake got all hot and bothered after I yelled at her/him, went to the school and complained, rode two shifts with someone else and got signed off. He/she is still unable to save plenty of savable patients to this day, twenty years later. I cringe thinking of how many people might have lived had that intern finally gotten a clue, or someone with better skills had responded.

We're only getting one side of the story. Even worse many are reaffirming the OP's position for him/her when he/she may really need to be told to step up his/her game and grow a thicker skin. He/she may very well be getting inappropriately handled, but then again...
 
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