Runway Selection

kyleb

kyleb

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
9,173
Location
Marietta, GA
Display Name
Drake the Outlaw
Home Airfield
Cartersville, GA
Went flying before work this morning. Flew a bunch of stop & goes hoping to improve my landings in the RV-6 which have stunk lately. FYI, they still stink - I'm dropping them in from the flare. In any case it was a nice morning to fly.

When I arrived at the airport, there was no wind at ground level or at windsock level. The steam plumes from the nearby power plant showed light winds from the South at higher altitude. I chose to use 01 because it has much better landout options if the engine checks out on takeoff. The options on 19 are pretty grim.

After a couple of trips around the pattern a plane from a nearby flight school joined the pattern and aborted its first landing. I assumed they were training on go arounds. Not really. Pretty soon, the instructor calls on the radio and requests that we switch runways because there is a headwind on downwind at pattern altitude and he has a student and wants to "teach it right".

Whaa?

Oh, and why do all the flight schools have cute call signs, e.g. "Flightcheck" and "Blue Penis Phoenix"? What happend to N numbers?
 
The weather here in Carolina was stunning this morning. Cool & smooth! Used runway 23 at two different airports when I went for fuel.

As for the runway change, flying a tailwheel means I try to always land into the wind so if the calm wind becomes not so calm or the direction changes I'm looking to use a runway that affords an into the wind landing.

Good of the instructor to request a change instead of just making the change without letting anyone else in on it ...
 
any atis that said winds calm? sounded like u 'may' have had a bias for 01 regardless of calm winds? I'm gonna guess the cfi/student were in a high wing.
 
eman1200 said:
any atis that said winds calm? sounded like u 'may' have had a bias for 01 regardless of calm winds? I'm gonna guess the cfi/student were in a high wing.
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ATIS is/was down. Windsock and scattered fog both showed zero wind for the entire time I was out and about. The student and instructor were in a 172. But we do get plenty of "flight check" students in Cherokees and Arrows.
 
kyleb said:
Went flying before work this morning. Flew a bunch of stop & goes hoping to improve my landings in the RV-6 which have stunk lately. FYI, they still stink - I'm dropping them in from the flare. In any case it was a nice morning to fly.

When I arrived at the airport, there was no wind at ground level or at windsock level. The steam plumes from the nearby power plant showed light winds from the South at higher altitude. I chose to use 01 because it has much better landout options if the engine checks out on takeoff. The options on 19 are pretty grim.

After a couple of trips around the pattern a plane from a nearby flight school joined the pattern and aborted its first landing. I assumed they were training on go arounds. Not really. Pretty soon, the instructor calls on the radio and requests that we switch runways because there is a headwind on downwind at pattern altitude and he has a student and wants to "teach it right".

Whaa?

Oh, and why do all the flight schools have cute call signs, e.g. "Flightcheck" and "Blue Penis Phoenix"? What happend to N numbers?
Click to expand...

Props to the instructor for being courteous to you in the pattern and requesting a change. Half the threads on here are about some %@$^#$% that cut them off in the pattern going the wrong way NORDO.

As to the callsigns for the flight schools, it probably helps at their base airports where there may be a dozen or more aircraft from the same school with very similar tail numbers. Near us, Mankato University has a fleet of 40 Cherokees all with tail numbers ending in MK. They recently switched to using a "Minn State" callsign. Before it could get confusing, N434MK, N433MK, N443MK, N343MK, N334MK, etc., all in the pattern or talking to Center at the same time, often with thick foreign accents.
 
kyleb said:
Went flying before work this morning. Flew a bunch of stop & goes hoping to improve my landings in the RV-6 which have stunk lately. FYI, they still stink - I'm dropping them in from the flare. In any case it was a nice morning to fly.

When I arrived at the airport, there was no wind at ground level or at windsock level. The steam plumes from the nearby power plant showed light winds from the South at higher altitude. I chose to use 01 because it has much better landout options if the engine checks out on takeoff. The options on 19 are pretty grim.

After a couple of trips around the pattern a plane from a nearby flight school joined the pattern and aborted its first landing. I assumed they were training on go arounds. Not really. Pretty soon, the instructor calls on the radio and requests that we switch runways because there is a headwind on downwind at pattern altitude and he has a student and wants to "teach it right".

Whaa?

Oh, and why do all the flight schools have cute call signs, e.g. "Flightcheck" and "Blue Penis Phoenix"? What happend to N numbers?
Click to expand...
You could have just politely responded “Unable, I am practicing headwind on the downwind traffic patterns”.
 
Sigh. Generally if calm winds are reported, I'll go for the runway with the ils. Seems like that's usually the default.

Re: callsigns....my favorite is "career track" for ATP. Yeah, that saves syllables, good job. Only positive is it has to make the kids feel like even bigger dorks than the epaulets do.

Local 141 uses "Illini", which makes sense as they were started by the U of I. Fun fact, they have "airman examining agency" certificate #1.

Purdue uses "Vader" for whatever reason. Haven't figured that one out. Would've expected "Boiler" or something.
 
Jim K said:
Sigh. Generally if calm winds are reported, I'll go for the runway with the ils. Seems like that's usually the default.

Re: callsigns....my favorite is "career track" for ATP. Yeah, that saves syllables, good job. Only positive is it has to make the kids feel like even bigger dorks than the epaulets do.

Local 141 uses "Illini", which makes sense as they were started by the U of I. Fun fact, they have "airman examining agency" certificate #1.

Purdue uses "Vader" for whatever reason. Haven't figured that one out. Would've expected "Boiler" or something.
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My last run in with a career track dope was at BUU. I want to fuel up. Career track 172 in front of the pump. No instructor. No student. Was able to corner around and almost finish fueling when they come out. "Sorry, we had to use the bathroom". Bro, I've been here 15 minutes.

Rather than pull the plane ahead and out of the way. They fire up and sit there for 5 minutes so I can't roll the hose up.
 
Racerx said:
My last run in with a career track dope was at BUU. I want to fuel up. Career track 172 in front of the pump. No instructor. No student. Was able to corner around and almost finish fueling when they come out. "Sorry, we had to use the bathroom". Bro, I've been here 15 minutes.

Rather than pull the plane ahead and out of the way. They fire up and sit there for 5 minutes so I can't roll the hose up.
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Sounds like a good reason to carry a couple jumper leads with alligator clips. You can use them to permanently ground their mags. :stirpot:
 
It starts with schools whose planes all have N numbers with the same suffix like 0SU for Ohio State, LU for Liberty, ER for Embry-Riddle. You practically have to invert it.
Of course, once someone finds it cute, everybody has to do it.

Of course, you can get your own DOTCOM call. I heard a "Flight Aware" call the other day, that's a new one on me.
 
kyleb said:
Pretty soon, the instructor calls on the radio and requests that we switch runways because there is a headwind on downwind at pattern altitude and he has a student and wants to "teach it right".

Whaa?
Click to expand...
Perhaps they used wizardry and compared airspeed to groundspeed?

The only possible criticism is that they "requested" a switch rather than the more affirmative "blue phoenix 42069 is switching from from rwy XX to YY due to winds".
 
Jim K said:
Sigh. Generally if calm winds are reported, I'll go for the runway with the ils. Seems like that's usually the default.

Re: callsigns....my favorite is "career track" for ATP. Yeah, that saves syllables, good job. Only positive is it has to make the kids feel like even bigger dorks than the epaulets do.

Local 141 uses "Illini", which makes sense as they were started by the U of I. Fun fact, they have "airman examining agency" certificate #1.

Purdue uses "Vader" for whatever reason. Haven't figured that one out. Would've expected "Boiler" or something.
Click to expand...
I just heard some Purdue planes on the way down, but they weren't using Vader. Called em Purdue NN. Maybe the controller was like pulling a Jason Bateman.
"You will call all Purdue planes Vader."
"The **** I am."

Also heard this weekend.
Western Michigan = Sky Bronco NN
Mid Tenn St = Blue Raidir NN
 
EdFred said:
I just heard some Purdue planes on the way down, but they weren't using Vader. Called em Purdue NN. Maybe the controller was like pulling a Jason Bateman.
"You will call all Purdue planes Vader."
"The **** I am."

Also heard this weekend.
Western Michigan = Sky Bronco NN
Mid Tenn St = Blue Raidir NN
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Yep looks like I was wrong..."Vader" is another flight school based at LAF. No wonder that area is always so busy.
 
GeorgeC said:
Perhaps they used wizardry and compared airspeed to groundspeed?

The only possible criticism is that they "requested" a switch rather than the more affirmative "blue phoenix 42069 is switching from from rwy XX to YY due to winds".
Click to expand...
The odd thing to me was trading light pattern altitude (calm at surface) winds for a higher risk set of off-airport options. I’d already made that evaluation for my personal risk profile and chose 01.
 
midwestpa24 said:
As to the callsigns for the flight schools, it probably helps at their base airports where there may be a dozen or more aircraft from the same school with very similar tail numbers. Near us, Mankato University has a fleet of 40 Cherokees all with tail numbers ending in MK. They recently switched to using a "Minn State" callsign. Before it could get confusing, N434MK, N433MK, N443MK, N343MK, N334MK, etc., all in the pattern or talking to Center at the same time, often with thick foreign accents.
Click to expand...
How does that make it better? Saying Minn State 343, Minn State 242, etc? There are quite a few schools near us, Career Track being one of them and they not only use call signs that are sometimes off by one digit, the instructor will let the student make some of the calls, then they'll jump in. Now you're hearing several different call signs that are very similar, multiple voices and it becomes very difficult to figure out how many planes are in the pattern!
Jim K said:
Re: callsigns....my favorite is "career track" for ATP. Yeah, that saves syllables, good job. Only positive is it has to make the kids feel like even bigger dorks than the epaulets do.
Click to expand...
One of the big flight school instructors called out that they had a bird strike at our airport. Two other instructors jumped in asking if he needed help (not sure how you help), but he said no and landed. Then they all landed and gathered around the plane. The airport attendant and I walked over to see if they needed anything and saw a little blood smear on the side of the plane, no damage. The guy who hit the bird said they were just going to fly. Another instructor said, maybe we should call one of the other captains to see what they think. I asked, "Did you just say captain?" She turned red and I feel like at that moment she wished she wasn't wearing the epaulets!
 
kyleb said:
The odd thing to me was trading light pattern altitude (calm at surface) winds for a higher risk set of off-airport options. I’d already made that evaluation for my personal risk profile and chose 01.
Click to expand...
The odd thing is actually evaluating risks that aren’t specifically on the ACS. ;)
 
My home drome has a designated "calm winds" runway. In one direction (33) departure passes directly over a town and there is a noise abatement procedure. In the other direction (15) is farmland. 15 is the calm winds runway. It's listed in the AFD (Chart Supplement).
 
kyleb said:
Oh, and why do all the flight schools have cute call signs, e.g. "Flightcheck" and "Blue Penis Phoenix"? What happend to N numbers?
Click to expand...
Ummm... Flight Check isn't a flight school, it's the FAA flight check folks. :rofl: I don't think they have anything smaller than a King Air.

AV8R_87 said:
Heard a new and cool one today (not a flight school, though): Rock Band 277
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Journey Aviation. There's nothing on their official web site about it, but previous speculation here is that Steve Perry is a pilot, so he may or may not have something to do with that.

flyingron said:
It starts with schools whose planes all have N numbers with the same suffix like 0SU for Ohio State, LU for Liberty, ER for Embry-Riddle. You practically have to invert it.
Of course, once someone finds it cute, everybody has to do it.
Click to expand...
The flight schools seem to want people to use callsigns and wear epaulets from day one. Reminds me of being in college and seeing all of the business students wearing suits and carrying briefcases... I always thought "dude, wear jeans and t-shirts while you still can!"

flyingron said:
Of course, you can get your own DOTCOM call. I heard a "Flight Aware" call the other day, that's a new one on me.
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Dotcom (fltplan.com), FlightAware, ForeFlight, and Rockfish (ARINC) are the four callsigns/providers that you can use with the Privacy ICAO Address (PIA) program.

I think at least the first three you can use without PIA. I have no idea about ARINC.

Lowflynjack said:
How does that make it better? Saying Minn State 343, Minn State 242, etc?
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Imagine if it was "Cessna 343MikeKilo" and "Cessna 243MikeKilo"... You'd not only have a bunch of even more confusing radio traffic, you'd also have ATC constantly giving out similar call sign warnings.
 
I've wondered if some of the call sign stuff doesn't kind of mask poor instruction and practices. It's harder to tie "CareerTrack 123" to N234XY as being the source of the problem.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I've wondered if some of the call sign stuff doesn't kind of mask poor instruction and practices. It's harder to tie "CareerTrack 123" to N234XY as being the source of the problem.
Click to expand...
seems like the school would be the source of the problem more often than the individual instructor or airplane.
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's harder to tie "CareerTrack 123" to N234XY as being the source of the problem.
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It shouldn't be. Each airplane has its own callsign It's likely that "CareerTrack 123" is something like "N123AT".

There's often also a scope for a school's authorization to use a callsign instead of the N-number. When the airplane flies outside of the scope of the authorization it reverts back to the N-number. Since they're away from the training base, the problem of too many similar sounding N-numbers is reduced.
 
Yeah, kinda small potatoes, but still. I generally try to fit in with what’s going on, other traffic, and of course surface winds.

When the surface wind is UNDER 5 knots, I can go about any direction. Sometimes one may set up for the winds soon to come, forecasted. With any winds at pattern altitude, usually adjust for them when flying the pattern.

I do try to be like a duck, taking off and landing into the wind, as much as possible.
 
Lowflynjack said:
How does that make it better? Saying Minn State 343, Minn State 242, etc? There are quite a few schools near us, Career Track being one of them and they not only use call signs that are sometimes off by one digit, the instructor will let the student make some of the calls, then they'll jump in. Now you're hearing several different call signs that are very similar, multiple voices and it becomes very difficult to figure out how many planes are in the pattern!
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For what little its worth, MN State's callsigns are usually just two digits. Minn State 42, Minn State 51, etc. Not sure how the digits are assigned, by aircraft, persons, flight plans?
 
Larry in TN said:
It shouldn't be. Each airplane has its own callsign It's likely that "CareerTrack 123" is something like "N123AT".

There's often also a scope for a school's authorization to use a callsign instead of the N-number. When the airplane flies outside of the scope of the authorization it reverts back to the N-number. Since they're away from the training base, the problem of too many similar sounding N-numbers is reduced.
Click to expand...
I have heard Sky Bronco NN (Western Michigan University) as far south as Georgia, and yes they were heading somewhere in GA. Definitely not reverting to the N-number.
 
EdFred said:
I have heard Sky Bronco NN (Western Michigan University) as far south as Georgia, and yes they were heading somewhere in GA. Definitely not reverting to the N-number.
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Then they have a larger scope.

Even "NetJets" has a scope to their call sign authorization. When they leave the CONUS they use their N-number.
 
Daleandee said:
View attachment 140611
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Absolutely.

BLUF:

We are the PIC of our aircraft. The OP recognized the surface winds are calm and selected the runway with the best options for an engine failure on takeoff. Then a little puppy regurgitating some B.S. decided he was “doing it the right way.”

Screw that guy. He wants to do it the “right way” he can figure it out on his own.
 
Will we get to ‘pattern rage’ at the airport? We both land, meet at the fuel pump?? Funny, I almost had that a few years ago. I was flying, landed taxiing in. A guy came in to land, another, oblivious, crossed in front of him on the grass runway. The guy trying to land went missed.

I was putting the plane away, up comes a guy driving a golf cart. He asked if it was me that crossed the runway in front of him. I said, no, but I heard it all on the radio. I said the guy went down to a hangar on the West end, off he went.
 
TangoJulietTango said:
I thought Flight Check was the callsign used by the FAA when flight testing NAVAIDs?
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Maybe I mis-heard or mis-remembered a call sign I heard from an Arrow or Cherokee a couple of weeks ago, but I thought it was "Flight Check"...
 
kyleb said:
e.g. "Flightcheck"
Click to expand...
TangoJulietTango said:
I thought Flight Check was the callsign used by the FAA when flight testing NAVAIDs?
Click to expand...

It is. We use the Flight Check call sign (not to be audibly confused with Flex Jet or Exec Jet, which all.sound similar on the radio) when we are on an inspection itinerary. Followed by the tail number. I'm in Flight Check 73 today.
 
kyleb said:
Went flying before work this morning. Flew a bunch of stop & goes hoping to improve my landings in the RV-6 which have stunk lately. FYI, they still stink - I'm dropping them in from the flare. In any case it was a nice morning to fly.

When I arrived at the airport, there was no wind at ground level or at windsock level. The steam plumes from the nearby power plant showed light winds from the South at higher altitude. I chose to use 01 because it has much better landout options if the engine checks out on takeoff. The options on 19 are pretty grim.

After a couple of trips around the pattern a plane from a nearby flight school joined the pattern and aborted its first landing. I assumed they were training on go arounds. Not really. Pretty soon, the instructor calls on the radio and requests that we switch runways because there is a headwind on downwind at pattern altitude and he has a student and wants to "teach it right".
Click to expand...
Some of these can be procedural issues, not pilot problems.

For example, KLVJ has a single runway, 14/32. The default usage in low-wind - per the chart supplement - is 14. However, there is only one instrument approach. That approach is RNAV32, and it does not allow circling at night. It's a training airport, so imagine a solo PPL student coming in on his/her normal pattern set to land on 14, per the supplement, and hearing a call from an IFR training flight for a straight-in RNAV on 32.

Who is "right"? A solo PPL student may not know the RNAV, much less the detail about not circling at night, and the IFR flight is not allowed to do anything other than 32.
 
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