Run-Up Area Etiquette

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by ilpilot, Oct 25, 2020.

  1. ilpilot

    ilpilot Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2018
    Messages:
    29

    Display name:
    ilpilot
    Greetings all,

    Hoping to get your thoughts on something that occurred to me last week.

    We have a runup area next to the start of the runway at my non-towered airport. I was parked in the corner furthest away from the runway off to the side, engine stopped, troubleshooting a mechanical issue.

    An airplane pulled up ahead of me and did a 90 degree turn which put them directly in front. They were likely around 30 ft ahead (basically as close as you can get to turn without worrying about a wingtip striking my airplane.

    They then proceeded to do a run-up with their prop-blast pointed directly at me. My airplane obviously shook for the duration of their run-up, and I closed my canopy due to the dust/dirt/debris getting blown at my airplane. Being at high altitude, they did a full-power lean before the run-up which meant more prop blast than normal.

    I haven't encountered this before and there is nothing in the FAR/AIM about this, but it seemed like a very impolite move on the pilot ahead of me. There was no immediate safety concern as our airplanes were similar size, but it just seemed like poor etiquette.

    I'll be out this week and don't know that pilot real well but know where their hangar is. I was thinking about stopping by just for a friendly chat to mention this, but I don't want to come across as 'looking for trouble' or confrontational. Not trying to get anyone in trouble, just trying to learn and get better.

    Is this something reasonable to discuss in a polite and not-at-all angry way? Thanks for your input.
     
  2. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    22,367
    Location:
    Catawba, NC

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    It's inconsiderate. If at all possible, you do your runup in a position that doesn't blow on another aircraft. I've had "the talk" with a guy who used to come out and do runups in his tiedown periodically.
     
    DaleB and ETres like this.
  3. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    17,699
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34

    Display name:
    Matthew
    I would consider it poor form.

    It’s just me, but rather than say something after the fact I probably would have asked over the radio if he could shift over a bit.
     
    Daleandee and JOhnH like this.
  4. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    12,303
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Absolutely.

    unfortunately I default to sarcasm in this scenario, which may not have the desired effect.
     
    Omalley1537 likes this.
  5. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    1,661

    Display name:
    smv
    I have seen UND "pilots" do their runup on the ramp blowing ramp crap all over an entire line of parked aircraft. Apparently not something taught much anymore...
     
  6. sarangan

    sarangan Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,576

    Display name:
    Andrew, CFI-I
    It is poor etiquette, but its not worth fussing about since safety was not an issue. One should always look behind them before doing the runup. But its also possible that he simply didn't see you, or it might be a new student pilot just following his routine.
     
  7. cowman

    cowman En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,873
    Location:
    Danger Zone

    Display name:
    Cowman
    I will even try to taxi away from a parking space ASAP if my idle prop blast is hitting other parked planes or people at idle. Definitely try my best to be mindful of others to the extent possible, but if it's what I need to do to taxi out, runup, and takeoff I will. I can't think of a circumstance where one would HAVE to runup blasting others but... you know.. hypothetically.

    One other thing I'll add is a lot of pilots were taught to turn into the wind before starting their runup and will always do so without considering other factors. Not sure but I don't think the reasons for doing this apply to most modern single engine piston aircraft anyway. I usually am more concerned with where the airplane might go should the brakes fail to hold it.
     
  8. Geosync

    Geosync Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    424

    Display name:
    Geosync
    Bad form, but I’ve seen jet pilots totally oblivious to where their engines were pointing. Commons sense isn’t so common...until someone makes them aware of what they are doing. You should do as you said, bring it up in a polite way because they probably had no idea.
     
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    12,303
    Location:
    Wichita, KS

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Safety may not be an issue, but potential aircraft damage definitely is.
     
  10. Hang 4

    Hang 4 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,589

    Display name:
    Hang 4
    All they had to do was point the tail 30 or so degrees away from you. Definitely a poor move. I assume they could see you there when they were taxiing into position?
     
  11. ilpilot

    ilpilot Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2018
    Messages:
    29

    Display name:
    ilpilot
    A few relevant details:

    1) There was an airplane next to me that had finished its run up just before airplane discussed pulled up. They were taxing to the runway as this airplane pulled up.

    2) They definitely saw me as they approached in front of me perpendicular, then did a 270 degree turn ending with their prop pointed directly at me.

    3) If they wanted to point directly into the wind they should have angled about 30 degrees or so...they were not directly pointed into it at the time. Winds were around 8knts so not a huge deal.

    4) There was sufficient space on the ramp for them to slightly angle one way or the other safely.

    Thank you all for your continued input!
     
  12. ETres

    ETres Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    694

    Display name:
    ETres
    As others have replied, it's poor etiquette and inconsiderate. I'd chalk it up to the perps being either oblivious or a-holes - one or the other. They're the types who don't put up their shopping carts or short-tip their waiters.
     
    Ed Haywood likes this.
  13. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas

    Display name:
    RyanShort1
    That's careless and reckless and peeps have been prosecuted by the FAA over it. I'd bring a friend who can keep you calm if you intend to have a discussion.

    I can't find it, but wasn't a guy prosecuted for damaging the rudder of an AN-2?
     
  14. TheFB

    TheFB Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    320

    Display name:
    TheFB
    I’d go speak to him. It may involve some confrontation but it can be settled and surely would help you and others in the future. I taxied my plane over to the mechanic’s hangar and looped it around so he could push it in easily. He ripped much head off and showed me what I had stirred up in the neighbor’s hangar. Lesson learned for a newbie. This guy may just be dumb as I was. I was trained to angle away from planes for run up however.
     
  15. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    28,885
    Location:
    Land of Savages

    Display name:
    steingar
    last time I flew a guy stopped in the middle of the runup area and parked parallel to it, such that had I been polite can pulled behind him I'd have gotten his prop blast. I pulled in front of him and turned the aircraft so my prop blast wouldn't hit him. I was done with my runup in my complex aircraft before he (or she) as done in their trainer. They're out there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  16. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,306

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    I would expect it was a complete lack of awareness, not deliberate. I see that quite often around our congested, busy airport.
     
  17. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    28,412
    Location:
    Michigan

    Display name:
    White Chocolate
    I would ask them which form of trisomy they suffer from, because.....damn.

    Then I'd send them a bill for the paint touch up that will need to be done after the Captain A-hole move.
     
  18. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    28,412
    Location:
    Michigan

    Display name:
    White Chocolate
    If you are unaware of a plane that's only 30' away from you that you just pulled in front of, you shouldn't be behind the controls of an aircraft.
     
  19. Daleandee

    Daleandee En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2020
    Messages:
    3,538

    Display name:
    Dale Andee
    Perhaps they need a call from Mr. Roy D. Mercer ...

    "How big an old boy are ya?"

    :rofl:
     
    kyleb, Omalley1537 and smv like this.
  20. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,306

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    LOL. Perhaps.
    Ever looked at the stats for accident witness accuracy? And those are presumably based on what people are seeing in front of them with their own eyes, not what's behind them.
     
  21. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    28,412
    Location:
    Michigan

    Display name:
    White Chocolate
    True, but based on the majority of runup areas I've seen at the end of runways even at Class C and B, that 30 foot number is plausible/believable.
     
  22. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    7,988

    Display name:
    asicer
    "It's OK because I have ADS-B In" :p
     
  23. Llk

    Llk Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2019
    Messages:
    131

    Display name:
    glbtrottr
    Huh.
    Manners?

    Sorry to feel particularly cynical. I went to seminary school when I was very young; I came to the States at 17, was always amazed at the politeness and kindness of Americans (I was born here but raised abroad), and yet, virtually everything I came to know as a young man has all but disappeared in various neighborhoods I've lived in in California. Most people don't know their neighbors in most places here, a bit different than my time in Illinois or Massachussetts, and people don't seem to agree on most anything these days. Politeness and manners? Only a matter of time before our airports become even more polluted with rudeness, sadly.

    This also extends to flying - I've been cut off during final even though they had acknowledged me on the pattern; I've seen countless departures within a mile final with no regard, regardless of whether I was in my 172 or Turbo Mooney. Towered airports bring a modicum of improvement, but even there things get odd at time.

    Being parked at the end of a runway troubleshooting a mechanical issue would usually invite other parties to come and lend a hand; these days, talking to strangers without an invitation seems rude to many.

    I miss the old days...
     
    Cervieres and Morgan3820 like this.
  24. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    9,306

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    Humans have an incredible capacity to look at something that is in some way unusual or "different" from what they expect, and not see it. Or it seemingly doesn't register.

    In this case the OP's plane is in the run-up area but the engine is stopped and he's not doing a run-up.
    There's no benefit for the other pilot to be a deliberate azz. If I was the OP I'd have a non-confrontational chat with him. Maybe it'll result in some positive influence on the other pilot. But I'll bet he won't remember it if the OP raises it with him. Did. Not. Register.
     
  25. rtk11

    rtk11 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,768
    Location:
    Southern California

    Display name:
    rtk
    Some folks are unaware and self focused, and some do it deliberately. Whether the run-up, or in my case, the line to take off at an untowered airport.

    I try very hard to be courteous, pull all the way up at the run-up area. If I hear people coming to the run-up area, I'll turn my plane at an angle in the run-up area to ensure my prop blast doesn't affect them. Most people at my airport are pretty courteous.

    At Hemet (KHMT), I flew in during Labor Day and the Cafe was closed. Some family flew in and found out the same. I was s holding short waiting for a helicopter to do its approach and ensure that airspace was clear. I guess the pilot with his family was in a hurry as he revved up his engine behind me. In that situation, courtesy went out the window as I was already at the hold short line, and I'm not taking off unless it's safe to do so. I did a straight out, climbing departure. I saw on ADS-B that the pilot behind be stayed between 800-1000 feet and flew under me to get ahead of me. Go figure.
     
  26. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    8,545
    Location:
    KTTA

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    Obviously you want to talk to him but you’re not sure how. Makes sense because as you state, there is a chance of it coming across as looking for trouble.

    Maybe:
    Hi - my name is Bob and I’m in hangar X a few rows over. Talk and exchange pleasantries.

    There is a reason I stopped by. I want you to know I’m not mad, but I would like to ask for a small favor

    Last week we were both at the run up at the same time and you positioned with your prop blast pointed at me. Again, I’m not mad, It’s just when that happens, it blows dust and dirt and I’m afraid of a piece of fod being thrown up. All I’d like to ask is to be aware which way your tail is pointing.

    Thank him for the time and for listening. Maybe we can fly out for lunch some time, I’ll buy.

    still might come across as confrontational because it is a little.
     
    Schokie likes this.
  27. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    3,830
    Location:
    New Bern, NC

    Display name:
    El Conquistador
    Manners are still there in the small towns. Although, that may change as people move out of the cities
     
    SoonerAviator and Tarheelpilot like this.
  28. Dana

    Dana En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    2,942
    Location:
    CT & NY

    Display name:
    Dana
    A few years ago I was keeping my plane in a sun shade hangar, and a flying club had their Dakota in the adjacent space. One day I had the cowling off to change the oil, plane wasn't tired down as I'd just returned from warming it up. One of the club members taxied back after a flight and proceeded to use what seemed like full throttle and brake to turn the plane tail towards the hangar. I grabbed my Shinto and hung on for dear life while my cowl was blown across the pavement and down the hill. Needless to say I was petty ****ed and let him know in no uncertain terms what I thought... in front of his wife and kid. His response? "I didn't realize you weren't tied down."
     
  29. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    28,412
    Location:
    Michigan

    Display name:
    White Chocolate
    Sounds like the same kind of guy that would walk into your house, help himself to the contents of the fridge, and then say, "I didn't realize you were home," when you call him out on it. As if it's OK as long as you aren't home.
     
  30. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    22,367
    Location:
    Catawba, NC

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    I got caught by one of these courtesy things at my own airport. For years I've been back taxiing and then swinging around in a tight right-hand turn to takeoff. We now have a new resident whose hangar is now right there. He kindly asked if I could make the turn the other way (at least when his hangar door is open) so I don't blow crud into the hangar. No problem. One time one of our lot owners parked his mobile home on my ramp in a way that protruded a bit into the taxiway. The neighbor with the Baron comes buy with a tape measure and says he doesn't think he can get through. No problem, the rv owner isn't there, but he told me where the keys are. I reposition it.

    A lot of people aren't rude, just clueless. A little tact can often "instruct" them.
     
  31. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    28,885
    Location:
    Land of Savages

    Display name:
    steingar
    Actually, the only viable trisomy is 21, which of course results in Down syndrome. Lots and lots of gametes are aneuploid as are lots of zygotes, seems to be a thing with us humans. Trisomy 18 children can go to term but don't make it beyond that. All the other trisomies are lethal during embryogenesis. You did mention it, and far be it for me not to show just how smart I am.
     
    LanceS likes this.
  32. jordane93

    jordane93 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,405
    Location:
    Long Island, NY

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Bad form
     
  33. MacFly

    MacFly Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 11, 2020
    Messages:
    531

    Display name:
    MacFly
    I would have said something on CTAF and asked him to move away or point a different direction. If he responded huffily, I'd invite him to a conversation later, and I'd offer to bring the beer. I wouldn't go to his hangar after-the-fact, days or weeks later, and say "say...you remember the other day...?"
     
  34. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    8,538

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    Those people were raging ****oles.

    Yes! Two adults should be able to discuss it

    Honestly they probably just didn't think about it. They saw a plane with an engine off, figured you'd be there a while, and grabbed a spot in front of you. A polite heads up CTAF "spam can N123 I'm right behind you picking up your prop blast" or something

    There are lots of people who don't realize that a relatively small GA piston plane can put off a fair amount of wind, you'll often see what appears to be a perfectly nice and reasonable person power out of their tie down blasting sand all over the person pre-flighting next to them. It's not intentional, just careless.
     
  35. woodchucker

    woodchucker Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,753

    Display name:
    woodchucker
    Was once with a small group of other pilots chatting on a dirt/gravel ramp area on a slight grade. To access the runup area pilots have a choice to go down the grade at low power or up the grade using more power. More than one pilot chose to go uphill blasting everybody and everything behind them. These are not amateur pilots. They are inconsiderate pilots. I just don’t get that mentality.
     
  36. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    8,995

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    It often comes down to ignorance, which comes down further to Primacy: what a student first sees and is taught is the most ingrained, and a student started off poorly will have poor habits that are hard to break even if he knows he has them. It's as simple as that.

    We always taught, right in the first lesson, this sort of stuff. It's right in the govenment-issued Flight Instructor Guide. Some instructors are ignorant of much of it, unfortunately.

    We see stuff like this:

    (4) Explain the procedure to carry out, and the importance of, the external pre-flight inspection, and emphasize:


    1. Determination of sufficient fuel and oil for intended flight, security of fuel and oil tank caps;
    2. Procedure for inspection of the aircraft for serviceability;
    3. Proper positioning of aircraft to prevent damage or nuisance from slipstream when engine is started and during run-up.
    .........

    Instruction and Student Practice

    Demonstrate:


    (1) During engine run-up:

    1. How to choose a suitable area for ground carburettor heat check - dust, sand, etc., avoidance;
    .........

    Instructor and Student Practice (Ground)

    (1) Demonstrate how to:

    9. Park an aircraft without causing a nuisance with the slipstream;
    11. Select run-up spot so as not to block use of a taxiway.

    ............

    Three times it's mentioned, early in the Guide. That should be enough, if it gets done at all.

    https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/pu...-guide-aeroplane-tp-975#part-iii-lesson-plans
     
  37. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,720
    Location:
    Illinois

    Display name:
    NRG
    It seems most of the places I fly don't have run up areas. I just try to stay out of people's way and not blast anyone.
     
  38. wilkersk

    wilkersk Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,211
    Location:
    Puget Sound

    Display name:
    KennyW
    What happened? were you waiting for a tow?
     
  39. ARFlyer

    ARFlyer En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    3,159
    Location:
    Central AR

    Display name:
    ARFlyer
    Cue
     
    gdwindowpane likes this.
  40. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    14,872
    Location:
    mass fla

    Display name:
    ron keating
    Inconsiderate, by a thoughtless pilot. Speaking with the pilot in question would probably fall on deaf ears.