Run-Up Area Etiquette

I

ilpilot

Pre-Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Messages
33
Display Name
Display name:
ilpilot
Greetings all,

Hoping to get your thoughts on something that occurred to me last week.

We have a runup area next to the start of the runway at my non-towered airport. I was parked in the corner furthest away from the runway off to the side, engine stopped, troubleshooting a mechanical issue.

An airplane pulled up ahead of me and did a 90 degree turn which put them directly in front. They were likely around 30 ft ahead (basically as close as you can get to turn without worrying about a wingtip striking my airplane.

They then proceeded to do a run-up with their prop-blast pointed directly at me. My airplane obviously shook for the duration of their run-up, and I closed my canopy due to the dust/dirt/debris getting blown at my airplane. Being at high altitude, they did a full-power lean before the run-up which meant more prop blast than normal.

I haven't encountered this before and there is nothing in the FAR/AIM about this, but it seemed like a very impolite move on the pilot ahead of me. There was no immediate safety concern as our airplanes were similar size, but it just seemed like poor etiquette.

I'll be out this week and don't know that pilot real well but know where their hangar is. I was thinking about stopping by just for a friendly chat to mention this, but I don't want to come across as 'looking for trouble' or confrontational. Not trying to get anyone in trouble, just trying to learn and get better.

Is this something reasonable to discuss in a polite and not-at-all angry way? Thanks for your input.
 
It's inconsiderate. If at all possible, you do your runup in a position that doesn't blow on another aircraft. I've had "the talk" with a guy who used to come out and do runups in his tiedown periodically.
 
I would consider it poor form.

It’s just me, but rather than say something after the fact I probably would have asked over the radio if he could shift over a bit.
 
I have seen UND "pilots" do their runup on the ramp blowing ramp crap all over an entire line of parked aircraft. Apparently not something taught much anymore...
 
ilpilot said:
Greetings all,

Hoping to get your thoughts on something that occurred to me last week.

We have a runup area next to the start of the runway at my non-towered airport. I was parked in the corner furthest away from the runway off to the side, engine stopped, troubleshooting a mechanical issue.

An airplane pulled up ahead of me and did a 90 degree turn which put them directly in front. They were likely around 30 ft ahead (basically as close as you can get to turn without worrying about a wingtip striking my airplane.

They then proceeded to do a run-up with their prop-blast pointed directly at me. My airplane obviously shook for the duration of their run-up, and I closed my canopy due to the dust/dirt/debris getting blown at my airplane. Being at high altitude, they did a full-power lean before the run-up which meant more prop blast than normal.

I haven't encountered this before and there is nothing in the FAR/AIM about this, but it seemed like a very impolite move on the pilot ahead of me. There was no immediate safety concern as our airplanes were similar size, but it just seemed like poor etiquette.

I'll be out this week and don't know that pilot real well but know where their hangar is. I was thinking about stopping by just for a friendly chat to mention this, but I don't want to come across as 'looking for trouble' or confrontational. Not trying to get anyone in trouble, just trying to learn and get better.

Is this something reasonable to discuss in a polite and not-at-all angry way? Thanks for your input.
Click to expand...

It is poor etiquette, but its not worth fussing about since safety was not an issue. One should always look behind them before doing the runup. But its also possible that he simply didn't see you, or it might be a new student pilot just following his routine.
 
I will even try to taxi away from a parking space ASAP if my idle prop blast is hitting other parked planes or people at idle. Definitely try my best to be mindful of others to the extent possible, but if it's what I need to do to taxi out, runup, and takeoff I will. I can't think of a circumstance where one would HAVE to runup blasting others but... you know.. hypothetically.

One other thing I'll add is a lot of pilots were taught to turn into the wind before starting their runup and will always do so without considering other factors. Not sure but I don't think the reasons for doing this apply to most modern single engine piston aircraft anyway. I usually am more concerned with where the airplane might go should the brakes fail to hold it.
 
Bad form, but I’ve seen jet pilots totally oblivious to where their engines were pointing. Commons sense isn’t so common...until someone makes them aware of what they are doing. You should do as you said, bring it up in a polite way because they probably had no idea.
 
sarangan said:
It is poor etiquette, but its not worth fussing about since safety was not an issue. One should always look behind them before doing the runup. But its also possible that he simply didn't see you, or it might be a new student pilot just following his routine.
Click to expand...
Safety may not be an issue, but potential aircraft damage definitely is.
 
All they had to do was point the tail 30 or so degrees away from you. Definitely a poor move. I assume they could see you there when they were taxiing into position?
 
A few relevant details:

1) There was an airplane next to me that had finished its run up just before airplane discussed pulled up. They were taxing to the runway as this airplane pulled up.

2) They definitely saw me as they approached in front of me perpendicular, then did a 270 degree turn ending with their prop pointed directly at me.

3) If they wanted to point directly into the wind they should have angled about 30 degrees or so...they were not directly pointed into it at the time. Winds were around 8knts so not a huge deal.

4) There was sufficient space on the ramp for them to slightly angle one way or the other safely.

Thank you all for your continued input!
 
As others have replied, it's poor etiquette and inconsiderate. I'd chalk it up to the perps being either oblivious or a-holes - one or the other. They're the types who don't put up their shopping carts or short-tip their waiters.
 
That's careless and reckless and peeps have been prosecuted by the FAA over it. I'd bring a friend who can keep you calm if you intend to have a discussion.

I can't find it, but wasn't a guy prosecuted for damaging the rudder of an AN-2?
 
I’d go speak to him. It may involve some confrontation but it can be settled and surely would help you and others in the future. I taxied my plane over to the mechanic’s hangar and looped it around so he could push it in easily. He ripped much head off and showed me what I had stirred up in the neighbor’s hangar. Lesson learned for a newbie. This guy may just be dumb as I was. I was trained to angle away from planes for run up however.
 
last time I flew a guy stopped in the middle of the runup area and parked parallel to it, such that had I been polite can pulled behind him I'd have gotten his prop blast. I pulled in front of him and turned the aircraft so my prop blast wouldn't hit him. I was done with my runup in my complex aircraft before he (or she) as done in their trainer. They're out there.
 
Last edited:
I would expect it was a complete lack of awareness, not deliberate. I see that quite often around our congested, busy airport.
 
I would ask them which form of trisomy they suffer from, because.....damn.

Then I'd send them a bill for the paint touch up that will need to be done after the Captain A-hole move.
 
GRG55 said:
I would expect it was a complete lack of awareness, not deliberate. I see that quite often around our congested, busy airport.
Click to expand...

If you are unaware of a plane that's only 30' away from you that you just pulled in front of, you shouldn't be behind the controls of an aircraft.
 
EdFred said:
If you are unaware of a plane that's only 30' away from you that you just pulled in front of, you shouldn't be behind the controls of an aircraft.
Click to expand...

LOL. Perhaps.
Ever looked at the stats for accident witness accuracy? And those are presumably based on what people are seeing in front of them with their own eyes, not what's behind them.
 
GRG55 said:
LOL. Perhaps.
Ever looked at the stats for accident witness accuracy? And those are presumably based on what people are seeing in front of them with their own eyes, not what's behind them.
Click to expand...

True, but based on the majority of runup areas I've seen at the end of runways even at Class C and B, that 30 foot number is plausible/believable.
 
EdFred said:
If you are unaware of a plane that's only 30' away from you that you just pulled in front of, you shouldn't be behind the controls of an aircraft.
Click to expand...
"It's OK because I have ADS-B In" :p
 
Huh.
Manners?

Sorry to feel particularly cynical. I went to seminary school when I was very young; I came to the States at 17, was always amazed at the politeness and kindness of Americans (I was born here but raised abroad), and yet, virtually everything I came to know as a young man has all but disappeared in various neighborhoods I've lived in in California. Most people don't know their neighbors in most places here, a bit different than my time in Illinois or Massachussetts, and people don't seem to agree on most anything these days. Politeness and manners? Only a matter of time before our airports become even more polluted with rudeness, sadly.

This also extends to flying - I've been cut off during final even though they had acknowledged me on the pattern; I've seen countless departures within a mile final with no regard, regardless of whether I was in my 172 or Turbo Mooney. Towered airports bring a modicum of improvement, but even there things get odd at time.

Being parked at the end of a runway troubleshooting a mechanical issue would usually invite other parties to come and lend a hand; these days, talking to strangers without an invitation seems rude to many.

I miss the old days...
 
EdFred said:
True, but based on the majority of runup areas I've seen at the end of runways even at Class C and B, that 30 foot number is plausible/believable.
Click to expand...

Humans have an incredible capacity to look at something that is in some way unusual or "different" from what they expect, and not see it. Or it seemingly doesn't register.

In this case the OP's plane is in the run-up area but the engine is stopped and he's not doing a run-up.
There's no benefit for the other pilot to be a deliberate azz. If I was the OP I'd have a non-confrontational chat with him. Maybe it'll result in some positive influence on the other pilot. But I'll bet he won't remember it if the OP raises it with him. Did. Not. Register.
 
Some folks are unaware and self focused, and some do it deliberately. Whether the run-up, or in my case, the line to take off at an untowered airport.

I try very hard to be courteous, pull all the way up at the run-up area. If I hear people coming to the run-up area, I'll turn my plane at an angle in the run-up area to ensure my prop blast doesn't affect them. Most people at my airport are pretty courteous.

At Hemet (KHMT), I flew in during Labor Day and the Cafe was closed. Some family flew in and found out the same. I was s holding short waiting for a helicopter to do its approach and ensure that airspace was clear. I guess the pilot with his family was in a hurry as he revved up his engine behind me. In that situation, courtesy went out the window as I was already at the hold short line, and I'm not taking off unless it's safe to do so. I did a straight out, climbing departure. I saw on ADS-B that the pilot behind be stayed between 800-1000 feet and flew under me to get ahead of me. Go figure.
 
Obviously you want to talk to him but you’re not sure how. Makes sense because as you state, there is a chance of it coming across as looking for trouble.

Maybe:
Hi - my name is Bob and I’m in hangar X a few rows over. Talk and exchange pleasantries.

There is a reason I stopped by. I want you to know I’m not mad, but I would like to ask for a small favor

Last week we were both at the run up at the same time and you positioned with your prop blast pointed at me. Again, I’m not mad, It’s just when that happens, it blows dust and dirt and I’m afraid of a piece of fod being thrown up. All I’d like to ask is to be aware which way your tail is pointing.

Thank him for the time and for listening. Maybe we can fly out for lunch some time, I’ll buy.

still might come across as confrontational because it is a little.
 
Llk said:
Huh.
Manners?

Sorry to feel particularly cynical. I went to seminary school when I was very young; I came to the States at 17, was always amazed at the politeness and kindness of Americans (I was born here but raised abroad), and yet, virtually everything I came to know as a young man has all but disappeared in various neighborhoods I've lived in in California. Most people don't know their neighbors in most places here, a bit different than my time in Illinois or Massachussetts, and people don't seem to agree on most anything these days. Politeness and manners? Only a matter of time before our airports become even more polluted with rudeness, sadly.

This also extends to flying - I've been cut off during final even though they had acknowledged me on the pattern; I've seen countless departures within a mile final with no regard, regardless of whether I was in my 172 or Turbo Mooney. Towered airports bring a modicum of improvement, but even there things get odd at time.

Being parked at the end of a runway troubleshooting a mechanical issue would usually invite other parties to come and lend a hand; these days, talking to strangers without an invitation seems rude to many.

I miss the old days...
Click to expand...
Manners are still there in the small towns. Although, that may change as people move out of the cities
 
A few years ago I was keeping my plane in a sun shade hangar, and a flying club had their Dakota in the adjacent space. One day I had the cowling off to change the oil, plane wasn't tired down as I'd just returned from warming it up. One of the club members taxied back after a flight and proceeded to use what seemed like full throttle and brake to turn the plane tail towards the hangar. I grabbed my Shinto and hung on for dear life while my cowl was blown across the pavement and down the hill. Needless to say I was petty ****ed and let him know in no uncertain terms what I thought... in front of his wife and kid. His response? "I didn't realize you weren't tied down."
 
Dana said:
A few years ago I was keeping my plane in a sun shade hangar, and a flying club had their Dakota in the adjacent space. One day I had the cowling off to change the oil, plane wasn't tired down as I'd just returned from warming it up. One of the club members taxied back after a flight and proceeded to use what seemed like full throttle and brake to turn the plane tail towards the hangar. I grabbed my Shinto and hung on for dear life while my cowl was blown across the pavement and down the hill. Needless to say I was petty ****ed and let him know in no uncertain terms what I thought... in front of his wife and kid. His response? "I didn't realize you weren't tied down."
Click to expand...

Sounds like the same kind of guy that would walk into your house, help himself to the contents of the fridge, and then say, "I didn't realize you were home," when you call him out on it. As if it's OK as long as you aren't home.
 
I got caught by one of these courtesy things at my own airport. For years I've been back taxiing and then swinging around in a tight right-hand turn to takeoff. We now have a new resident whose hangar is now right there. He kindly asked if I could make the turn the other way (at least when his hangar door is open) so I don't blow crud into the hangar. No problem. One time one of our lot owners parked his mobile home on my ramp in a way that protruded a bit into the taxiway. The neighbor with the Baron comes buy with a tape measure and says he doesn't think he can get through. No problem, the rv owner isn't there, but he told me where the keys are. I reposition it.

A lot of people aren't rude, just clueless. A little tact can often "instruct" them.
 
EdFred said:
I would ask them which form of trisomy they suffer from, because.....damn.
Click to expand...
Actually, the only viable trisomy is 21, which of course results in Down syndrome. Lots and lots of gametes are aneuploid as are lots of zygotes, seems to be a thing with us humans. Trisomy 18 children can go to term but don't make it beyond that. All the other trisomies are lethal during embryogenesis. You did mention it, and far be it for me not to show just how smart I am.
 
I would have said something on CTAF and asked him to move away or point a different direction. If he responded huffily, I'd invite him to a conversation later, and I'd offer to bring the beer. I wouldn't go to his hangar after-the-fact, days or weeks later, and say "say...you remember the other day...?"
 
Those people were raging ****oles.

ilpilot said:
Is this something reasonable to discuss in a polite and not-at-all angry way?
Click to expand...
Yes! Two adults should be able to discuss it

Honestly they probably just didn't think about it. They saw a plane with an engine off, figured you'd be there a while, and grabbed a spot in front of you. A polite heads up CTAF "spam can N123 I'm right behind you picking up your prop blast" or something

There are lots of people who don't realize that a relatively small GA piston plane can put off a fair amount of wind, you'll often see what appears to be a perfectly nice and reasonable person power out of their tie down blasting sand all over the person pre-flighting next to them. It's not intentional, just careless.
 
Was once with a small group of other pilots chatting on a dirt/gravel ramp area on a slight grade. To access the runup area pilots have a choice to go down the grade at low power or up the grade using more power. More than one pilot chose to go uphill blasting everybody and everything behind them. These are not amateur pilots. They are inconsiderate pilots. I just don’t get that mentality.
 
It often comes down to ignorance, which comes down further to Primacy: what a student first sees and is taught is the most ingrained, and a student started off poorly will have poor habits that are hard to break even if he knows he has them. It's as simple as that.

We always taught, right in the first lesson, this sort of stuff. It's right in the govenment-issued Flight Instructor Guide. Some instructors are ignorant of much of it, unfortunately.

We see stuff like this:

(4) Explain the procedure to carry out, and the importance of, the external pre-flight inspection, and emphasize:


  1. Determination of sufficient fuel and oil for intended flight, security of fuel and oil tank caps;
  2. Procedure for inspection of the aircraft for serviceability;
  3. Proper positioning of aircraft to prevent damage or nuisance from slipstream when engine is started and during run-up.
.........

Instruction and Student Practice

Demonstrate:


(1) During engine run-up:

  1. How to choose a suitable area for ground carburettor heat check - dust, sand, etc., avoidance;
.........

Instructor and Student Practice (Ground)

(1) Demonstrate how to:

9. Park an aircraft without causing a nuisance with the slipstream;
11. Select run-up spot so as not to block use of a taxiway.

............

Three times it's mentioned, early in the Guide. That should be enough, if it gets done at all.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/pu...-guide-aeroplane-tp-975#part-iii-lesson-plans
 
It seems most of the places I fly don't have run up areas. I just try to stay out of people's way and not blast anyone.
 
Inconsiderate, by a thoughtless pilot. Speaking with the pilot in question would probably fall on deaf ears.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top