Repairman's Cert

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by Stewartb, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    We shall deem this the Tom strategy. When someone calls you out for being wrong, just change the situation of the argument completely until you can somehow be right. In your second quoted scenario, what does the original builder getting the repairmans certificate have anything to do with it? Or did you forget what you were even arguing about (and what the thread is about) in the first place?
     
  2. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    They first must have reason, When they catch the perp. they probably do.

    So show me where I said to any one "this is what you should do"
     
  3. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    When thread creep occurs I react to it.
    but still, buyer perceptions was the subject when the statement was made.
    If you don't know how to deal with thread creep, you best leave the page, because it happens in every thread over 10 posts.
     
  4. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    When you wrote this:
    It really isn't a "selling advantage" if it is illegal, is it?
     
  5. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I believe you just demonstrated you don't know the difference between currency and duration of a certificate.

    If you are an instrument pilot, but not flown in a year are you still an instrument rated pilot?

    Once an A&P always an A&P.
     
  6. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Jesus man, it's never ending. I'm not sure a single post you have made in this thread is productive or correct. I honestly don't know how you have made a career in avition.

    I never said an A&P expired. I said your currency can lapse. I believe you just demonstrated your inability to comprehend what you are reading.

    To use your example, if an instrument pilot hasn't flown in a year, can they exercise the privileges of their Instrument Rating? Their certificate didn't expire, but their currency lapsed.

    Now go ahead and change the scenario again and say there's a CFI on board or something.
     
  7. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Giving you an example changes the subject,, I get now. you read what you want to see.
    quote "I never said an A&P expired." then why did you quote 65.83 and insinuate that it did.

    OBTW, never worry about my currency, I have been actively engaged in aviation in one manor or the other since 1958.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  8. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Yep,, even when they had very little to do with it.
     
  9. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Please show where I insinuated an A&P expires? I explicitly said "currency lapses". I never used the word expire except to tell you that I didn't say expire.

    This is moot anyhow, as I understand your tactic of deflecting when proven wrong. I'm glad I could teach you something though, now you know that there is a currency requirement for an A&P.

    I'm not worried about your currency, maybe your reading comprehension and general intelligence, perhaps your willingness to break an FAR, while working on someone's airplane however. But I wasn't talking to you anyhow. I was simply advising everyone to get a repairmans certificate if they are the legitimate builder of an airplane, even if they are an A&P just in case "THEIR CURRENCY LAPSES".
     
  10. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You got all wrapped around the axle over posts 62&63, because you read what you want to see, then started the thread creep and can't cope with it.
     
  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    To explain post 65;
    see post 63 and where I referred to currency.
     
  12. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    anyway fun's over. Cya
     
  13. Anymouse

    Anymouse En-Route

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    That's our Tom D!
     
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  14. yakdriver

    yakdriver Cleared for Takeoff

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  15. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Big "IF."
    when you do a complete restoration, why wouldn't you have the pictures to satisfy them.

    I could probably show them my AS&S account, and most builders and owners have one.

    What do you believe would happen if you told them you bought an old unfinished kit?
    I've never done this, but what do you think would happen?
     
  16. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    When you buy a flying E/AB wouldn't you get all the planes and kit stuff. The Serial number of the kit might be the stumbling block.
    But from plans built, pretty easy.
     
  17. donjohnston

    donjohnston Line Up and Wait

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    DAR's don't "recommend" for the repairman's cert. As it was explained to me by the FSDO, unless your airworthiness inspection is being done by an FAA inspector (not a DAR), there is no connection between the airworthiness cert and the repairman's cert. They are two separate certifications. I had to personally visit the FSDO to get my repairmans's cert.

    The DAR who inspected my plane wasn't interested in my builder's log. All he was interested in was whether it was airworthy. The builder's log is typically used to prove you built more than 51%.
     
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  18. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Actually some DARs do provide a letter of recommendation to the builder that they can include with their certificate application.

    A FSDO inspector did my AWC inspection and he never looked at my log either. Also the log doesn't prove major portion compliance -- the kit manufacturer does that through validation by the NKET IAW AC 20-27G (plans built is also covered in the AC as well as Order 8130.2J). Kits have to meet the rule, not the builder. Logs can, however, prove an individual was the primary builder.

    Oh and back to the original question, I got the repairman's certificate for my RV-10 and use it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  19. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    When I built my -9A, I had a very complete set of photos, and a logbook that detailed every work session. These things got a cursory glance for the DAR inspection, but were highly scrutineered for the Repairman Cert. They're great to have now as mementos, when I get all nostalgic about the build!

    I think any DAR worth his salt can determine whether someone has built the aircraft by asking a few specific questions about construction, especially if he's familiar with type.
     
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  20. donjohnston

    donjohnston Line Up and Wait

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    While that is 100% correct, only the job of the DAR is to determine if it's "airworthy". They could care less if you built every part and made you own nuts and bolts. When you go to get your repairman's cert, that's when the FAA rep starting looking at that.

    When I went to get my repairmans's cert, the inspector was "concerned" at the small number of pictures of me in my build log (I think that I had about 10). I explained that I did the build by myself. And that the only pictures of my building were if I remembered to setup a camera with a timer or if my wife came out and took picture. After I got my certificate (which had to be re-issued because of errors on the part of the inspector) and I was walking out, I asked one of the other inspectors if there was a number of pictures of the builder that are recommended so I could let other builders know. She told me that she could care less. She can tell after asking about three questions whether the builder built the plane. She said that she picks a random part of the build and says "tell about this". And that's all she needs. My inspector didn't ask me one single question about the build.
     
  21. donjohnston

    donjohnston Line Up and Wait

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    You are correct. I misstated. What I meant to say is that the logs are to prove that you didn't have someone else build the 51% that you're supposed to be doing.
     
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    When I built my Osprey I didn't have a single picture or log. Just a set of prints and the machines to make the parts. and the receipt for the material.
     
  23. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Exactly.
     
  24. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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  25. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Nope. Have to be the builder.
     
  26. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    True but your currency does. Read the regs.
     
  27. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Bringing the subject up is not advocating?
     
  28. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    then get current....you can read the regs on that. o_O
     
  29. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    455 Bravo Uniform
    I don't read that he's advocating. Just saying that must be what's being done.

    As for the FAA doing nothing, how can they do anything when there is no paper trail to follow?

    I think that's the point here. It's a gap/loophole.

    Disclaimer- just a lowly VFR PPL, no A&P, don't know jack about E/AB.
     
  30. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    It's a fool that would subject themselves to FAA action to save a few dollars. Ever notice how certificates are stated as being a "privaledge". Tangling with the feds is quite different from any other type of legal action. Also a fool that doesn't know the airplane doing the condition check to save a few bucks.
    If the feds decide to go after you justly or not it can make your life miserable. Why give them any opportunity?
     
  31. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    I agree. An owner, non-builder is ineligible to apply:

    "65.104 Repairman certificate—experimental aircraft builder—Eligibility, privileges and limitations.
    (a) To be eligible for a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder), an individual must—
    (2) Be the primary builder of the aircraft to which the privileges of the certificate are applicable;"

    FSDOs are pretty lenient on the "primary" builder stipulation, especially on group builds, but the applicant has to listed on the 8130-12, Eligibility Statement Amateur-Built Aircraft as one of the builders.
     
  32. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    There is nothing telling how many parts the prime builder must build .
    They can supervise the build and qualify
     
  33. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You are very wrong here. Any falsification on any FAA document results in the harshest enforcement actions. Try this "loophole" by falsifying a document and get caught say goodbye to all certificates as well as the AW certificate.

    Obviously.
     
  34. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    Doc, you got me wrong (as well as other people's posts based on your misunderstanding). Falsification is wrong. Deserves the harshest penalties. Did someone say that they did falsify, or suggested falsification? I did not think so. They just said that it happens.

    I always throw out a disclaimer when I want to play on POA but have less knowledge than others on a topic. You don't need to act like a jerk, eh?
     
  35. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    Reread my post. What I said is they have to be listed as a builder on the 8130-12 by reg. No where did I attempt to define what a primary builder is or the tasks needed to be performed. If someone who only supervises and doesn't physically perform a singe task, however small, wants to be listed as a builder on the Form, then that's between them and the other actual builders.
     
  36. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Show us what it requires to be a primary builder
     
  37. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Merry Christmas, Tom. How about observing the "Truce of Christmas" for a day?
     
  38. tsts4

    tsts4 Line Up and Wait

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    why? Show me where supervising equates to being a builder. In any event what I think doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is they are listed on the form. As to whether they should or shouldn't be isn't for me to decide.
     
  39. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You guys are reaurrecting this thread just to try to argue the points that have already been brought up. There's no point in arguing with Tom. He'll change his argument pretty dynamically once proven wrong.

    Here's the only thing that matters. Just apply for the repairmans certificate if you legitimately qualify for one. It's free and takes 5 minutes to fill out the form. There is no advantage to not getting it. You won't convince any smart buyer that they can get the repairmans certificate on an airplane that you built just because you didn't apply for it.
     
  40. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    It isn't a gap or loophole. It requires fraud - deliberately telling a lie to obtain what you want - a Repairman's Certificate. You can do the same on your taxes and they call it tax fraud, not a loophole.