Repairman's Cert

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by Stewartb, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Thread creep,, That is why this site is noted for. happens about the tenth or less post on all threads.
     
  2. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Probably made sense at the time?
     
  3. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    When you have an A&P you can do the Conditional inspection on the the aircraft. so you really don't need the R/Certificate. There is then a advantage to not getting it. because the next owner can apply for it. (Selling advantage).
     
  4. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Oh....o_O
     
  5. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Pre-Flight

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    I changed the airworthiness certification of my AMD CH601XL-B SLSA to "Experimental operating as Light Sport" so I could do my own maintenance and modifications (specifically to install ADS-B In/Out equipment among other things), and then took the Rainbow Aviation 16 hour LSA Repairman - Inspection course so I could perform my condition inspections. I had done owner assisted annuals for a decade on my 172, so I feel comfortable maintaining and inspecting my LSA. My longtime A&P I/A is a short drive away if I have any doubts about my competence to perform specific tasks.
     
  6. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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  7. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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  8. Stewartb

    Stewartb En-Route

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    Huh? Please explain your interpretation of the published rules. Without turning it into a question!
     
  9. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Simple. there are many owners that never set eyes on their aircraft prior to buying it and have the R/Certificate, so many buyers believe it can be done, and it can.
    Those who supervise the build, are considered eligible. And there are several other loop holes in the rules.
     
  10. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Bullsqueeze.
     
  11. yakdriver

    yakdriver Cleared for Takeoff

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    The N number can be changed. The serial number and manufacturer stays the same.
     
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  12. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    And when the aircraft data tag gets tossed. and a new one takes its place with a new set of paper ?

    what then.
     
  13. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Ever hear of builder assist programs?
    Got bucks? we'll do it.
     
  14. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Builder assist is way different than what you are talking about Tom. A builder assist airplane still bears the owners name as the manufacturer.

    It would truly be hard to convince the FSDO that you meet the requires for a repairmans certificate on an airplane built prior to you owning it, with a different name as the manufacturer. Also, when you submit the paperwork for the airworthiness, you must list any and all builders.

    I think what you are meaning to say, is that it is a selling point when an experimental airplane is at a point where it is mostly complete, but not so complete that the buyer can do a little work, list himself as a builder, and get the repairmans certificate.
     
  15. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Makes them ripe for the picking, right Tom? o_O


    What’s even worse is when someone who supposedly is a career aviation maintenance professional either doesn’t know the rules or has an indifference to them yet advises others on them. :mad:
     
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  16. Dana

    Dana Pre-takeoff checklist

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    From today's Barnstormers eflyer:
    Not saying it's illegal, sure is blatant...
     
  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    When I point out What other's do, doesn't mean I'm a part of it. as you seem to insinuate.
     
  18. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    We often hear of outfits being shut down because they are professional builders completing aircraft. then the new buyer trying for the R/C.
    When you are the final builder, why can't you have R/C ? the FAA actually encourages the use of professional help as long as you are involved.
    I know of two builders that developed health issues from the exposure to EPOXY chemicals and hired help in finishing their aircraft. and the FAA was OK with it.
     
  19. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What are you even talking about? Yes we all know what builders assist is. We all know that someone doing a builder assist will be listed as a builder and can get the repairmans certificate. That's not what I'm talking about.

    YOU said that an advantage to not get a repairmans certificate (on a completed airplane since you can't get a R/C on an airplane until the special airworthiness certificate is applied for) is so you can later sell it and convince the buyer he can apply for the repairmans certificate. That is simply wrong.

    The FAA gives the repairmans certificate to the "primary builder". The "primary builder" is the builder who signs in block III of the 8130-6 certifying the aircraft has been inspected and is airworthy. How are you going to be the primary builder when you buy an airplane after the 8130-6 has long been filed?

    When someone points out something you say is blantatly wrong, you just ignore that part and start arguing something else.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 11:55 AM
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    As has been pointed out prior in this thread, "You lie your ass off"

    What happens when the 8130-6 has not been filed? Or when it has, and no repairmen certificate has been issued.
    Can it be issued to the second or later owner?
     
  21. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A note to those who are A&Ps and considering not getting a repairmans certificate for an airplane they built and plan to own. If for some reason you decide to change careers, retire, or for some other reason allow your A&P currency to lapse, you would be grateful that you spent the 5 minutes to fill out the 1 form and send it in with your airworthiness application to get your repairmans certificate.
     
  22. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    full disclosure.....your A&P never expires.
     
  23. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    A&P never lapses it is always good.
    A&Ps do not need the repairman's certificate to work on any E/AB.
     
  24. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is is my last reply Tom because I'm not sure if you are trolling or you legitimately have such a weak understanding of the regulations. Either way, I think the rest of the members can determine what's good advice and what's bad advice.

    Here you are inferring that the airplane already has a special airworthiness certificate since you can't decide whether or not to get a repairmans certificate until you apply for the special airworthiness.

    Here you are referring to an airplane that has not yet had the airworthiness certificate applied for. In this case, I suppose the buyer could lie, file the 8130-6 as the primary builder, apply for the repairmans certificate, and prove that they have the knowledge to perform the condition inspection. But that's not what you were trying to argue in the above quote.

    Now we are back to an airplane that has had the special airworthiness applied for. I'm beginning to think you don't know what an 8130-6 is. No it (repairmans certificate) cannot be issued to the second or later owner because the second or later owner didn't sign in block III of the 8130-6 and is therefore not considered the primary builder. Sure you can lie, fill out the application for repairmans certificate, and take it to the FSDO, but I would be highly surprised if they didn't compare that to the 8130-6 and see that you are not the primary builder.
     
  25. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well then it's a good thing I said "allow your currency to lapse" and not "expire" isn't it?

    FAR 65.83

    Read the FAR above. And please tell us where you work as an A&P so we all know where FARs are not known nor followed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 1:02 PM
  26. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    you say that like it's a big deal....o_O
     
  27. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Who gets to choose which FARs are a big deal and which arent'? Or do you take to breaking all FARs so lightheartedly?
     
  28. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    technically....they are not FARs.....they be CFRs....title 14 to be zact. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 1:23 PM
  29. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    we're grateful, thanks for your input.
     
  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Why do you keep referring to the AWC the we are discussing the Repairman's certificate.
    Do you believe they are one and the same?

    many E/AB aircraft are flying with a AWC, but no assigned repairman.
     
  31. Direct C51

    Direct C51 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ughhh, one last time for you because I honestly think you aren't a troll, you just don't understand.

    8130-6 is an application for airworthiness certificate.

    Block III of the 8130-6 has a place that must be signed verifying the aircraft has been inspected and is airworthy. The FAA considers the signer of this block to be the "primary builder".

    Only the "primary builder" can apply for a repairmans certificate.

    Additionally, you must submit an application for repairmans certificate at the time of original certification of the aircraft. This means when the 8130-6 is submitted.

    Therefore, when you apply for the special airworthiness, the primary builder (singed block III on form 8130-6) chooses at that time whether to apply for a repairmans certificate or not. There is simply no scenario where you can choose not to apply for a repairmans certificate, then sell it at a later date and have the new owner apply for a repairmans certificate.

    You just can't convince some people that they are wrong, no matter how many facts are presented to them.
     
  32. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Wait! I done been wasting my money paying an A&P to do my condition inspections when I got a buddy that used to work as an A&P years ago? I bet he will do the inspection for a six pack and a ride. But perhaps not in that order
     
  33. yakdriver

    yakdriver Cleared for Takeoff

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    The primary builder is the manufacturer on the airworthiness certificate and that is the only one that can get the repairman certificate. To get the RC the DAR will write you a recommend letter when he issues the airworthiness if he is satisfied that you know all of the systems and are competent enough to do the inspections. On both of mine the DAR asked a ton of questions about the construction and systems as we went over the airplane. You then have to take the letter to the FSDO in person to get the RC. Don
     
  34. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-Flight

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    Just a few points to remember when someone is suggesting to falsify documentation:

    §65.20 Applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, and records: Falsification, reproduction, or alteration.
    (a) No person may make or cause to be made—

    (1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate or rating under this part;

    (2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used, to show compliance with any requirement for any certificate or rating under this part;

    (3) Any reproduction, for fraudulent purpose, of any certificate or rating under this part; or

    (4) Any alteration of any certificate or rating under this part.

    (b) The commission by any person of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman or ground instructor certificate or rating held by that person.

    The FAA will take ALL ratings from anyone who falsifies a document. Be careful.
     
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  35. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    IOWs I find an old project that is mostly complete, bring it home, finish it, and apply my name on the 8130-6, I'm good to go.
    IOWs I buy a completed flying aircraft, bring it home, Clean it (etc) do a bunch of restoration, slap a new data tag on it, submit the 8103-6 with my name on it ,,, and ?

    People do this, and they get away with it. simply because the FAA doesn't track any thing but the data tag, which you can buy almost anywhere.
    And the DARs that issue AWCs can't tell how long you took to build the aircraft.

    Yes, the previous data stays on record at OKC until the registration runs out.
     
  36. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Do you really believe that people can't throw all that paper away and start over?
     
  37. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    A couple years ago, I was asked to do a conditional inspection on a Kit Fox in Marysville Wa. I drove down there to see this aircraft and do the inspection. I first noticed that the paper work was dated 2 years old, but with the old type letter of limitations that does not have the requirement to comply with FAR 43-D as the conditional.
    I didn't know what to think of that, but we went to look at the aircraft. and it looked brand new.
    I thought to my self, I smell a rat, and told the guy no thanks find some one else.

    I think many times these aircraft records are destroyed for liable reasons by the builder to break the chain of liability.

    The only way to get them registered again, is to Lie your ass off, with new paper work.
     
  38. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-Flight

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    Nice to see you advocating committing an action which will result in the total loss of all the certificates a person holds if they were to follow your example. The FAA takes a hard line on falsifying documents.

    Which leads me to ask what other documentation you have falsified since you seem to think this is OK?
     
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  39. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Not advocating any thing, just saying, its the only way, and gets done most every day, and The FAA seem to do nothing about it.
     
  40. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-Flight

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    Can you cite a source that shows the FAA does nothing about individuals submitting fraudulent paperwork?

    And yes, you are advocating your position of "lying your ass off" as you put it.