Repairman's Cert

Stewartb said:
How many builders here have repairman's certs for their E-AB planes? How many opted not to bother? Just curious how many are more comfortable having another set of eyes do the condition inspection.
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When you have an A&P you can do the Conditional inspection on the the aircraft. so you really don't need the R/Certificate. There is then a advantage to not getting it. because the next owner can apply for it. (Selling advantage).
 
I changed the airworthiness certification of my AMD CH601XL-B SLSA to "Experimental operating as Light Sport" so I could do my own maintenance and modifications (specifically to install ADS-B In/Out equipment among other things), and then took the Rainbow Aviation 16 hour LSA Repairman - Inspection course so I could perform my condition inspections. I had done owner assisted annuals for a decade on my 172, so I feel comfortable maintaining and inspecting my LSA. My longtime A&P I/A is a short drive away if I have any doubts about my competence to perform specific tasks.
 
Huh? Please explain your interpretation of the published rules. Without turning it into a question!
 
Stewartb said:
Huh? Please explain your interpretation of the published rules. Without turning it into a question!
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Simple. there are many owners that never set eyes on their aircraft prior to buying it and have the R/Certificate, so many buyers believe it can be done, and it can.
Those who supervise the build, are considered eligible. And there are several other loop holes in the rules.
 
Tom-D said:
Simple. there are many owners that never set eyes on their aircraft prior to buying it and have the R/Certificate, so many buyers believe it can be done, and it can.
Those who supervise the build, are considered eligible. And there are several other loop holes in the rules.
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Bullsqueeze.
 
yakdriver said:
The N number can be changed. The serial number and manufacturer stays the same.
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And when the aircraft data tag gets tossed. and a new one takes its place with a new set of paper ?

what then.
 
Builder assist is way different than what you are talking about Tom. A builder assist airplane still bears the owners name as the manufacturer.

It would truly be hard to convince the FSDO that you meet the requires for a repairmans certificate on an airplane built prior to you owning it, with a different name as the manufacturer. Also, when you submit the paperwork for the airworthiness, you must list any and all builders.

I think what you are meaning to say, is that it is a selling point when an experimental airplane is at a point where it is mostly complete, but not so complete that the buyer can do a little work, list himself as a builder, and get the repairmans certificate.
 
Tom-D said:
They still can put in for it.

and many buyers do not understand the rules.
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Makes them ripe for the picking, right Tom? o_O


What’s even worse is when someone who supposedly is a career aviation maintenance professional either doesn’t know the rules or has an indifference to them yet advises others on them. :mad:
 
From today's Barnstormers eflyer:
HELICYCLE • $54,000 • NEW PRICE! • Helicycle kit 5-21. Ready for inspection. You can be builder on record...
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Not saying it's illegal, sure is blatant...
 
SkyDog58 said:
Makes them ripe for the picking, right Tom? o_O


What’s even worse is when someone who supposedly is a career aviation maintenance professional either doesn’t know the rules or has an indifference to them yet advises others on them. :mad:
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When I point out What other's do, doesn't mean I'm a part of it. as you seem to insinuate.
 
Direct C51 said:
Builder assist is way different than what you are talking about Tom. A builder assist airplane still bears the owners name as the manufacturer.

It would truly be hard to convince the FSDO that you meet the requires for a repairmans certificate on an airplane built prior to you owning it, with a different name as the manufacturer. Also, when you submit the paperwork for the airworthiness, you must list any and all builders.

I think what you are meaning to say, is that it is a selling point when an experimental airplane is at a point where it is mostly complete, but not so complete that the buyer can do a little work, list himself as a builder, and get the repairmans certificate.
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We often hear of outfits being shut down because they are professional builders completing aircraft. then the new buyer trying for the R/C.
When you are the final builder, why can't you have R/C ? the FAA actually encourages the use of professional help as long as you are involved.
I know of two builders that developed health issues from the exposure to EPOXY chemicals and hired help in finishing their aircraft. and the FAA was OK with it.
 
Tom-D said:
We often hear of outfits being shut down because they are professional builders completing aircraft. then the new buyer trying for the R/C.
When you are the final builder, why can't you have R/C ? the FAA actually encourages the use of professional help as long as you are involved.
I know of two builders that developed health issues from the exposure to EPOXY chemicals and hired help in finishing their aircraft. and the FAA was OK with it.
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What are you even talking about? Yes we all know what builders assist is. We all know that someone doing a builder assist will be listed as a builder and can get the repairmans certificate. That's not what I'm talking about.

Tom-D said:
There is then a advantage to not getting it. because the next owner can apply for it. (Selling advantage).
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YOU said that an advantage to not get a repairmans certificate (on a completed airplane since you can't get a R/C on an airplane until the special airworthiness certificate is applied for) is so you can later sell it and convince the buyer he can apply for the repairmans certificate. That is simply wrong.

The FAA gives the repairmans certificate to the "primary builder". The "primary builder" is the builder who signs in block III of the 8130-6 certifying the aircraft has been inspected and is airworthy. How are you going to be the primary builder when you buy an airplane after the 8130-6 has long been filed?

When someone points out something you say is blantatly wrong, you just ignore that part and start arguing something else.
 
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Direct C51 said:
How are you going to be the primary builder when you buy an airplane after the 8130-6 has long been filed?
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As has been pointed out prior in this thread, "You lie your ass off"

What happens when the 8130-6 has not been filed? Or when it has, and no repairmen certificate has been issued.
Can it be issued to the second or later owner?
 
A note to those who are A&Ps and considering not getting a repairmans certificate for an airplane they built and plan to own. If for some reason you decide to change careers, retire, or for some other reason allow your A&P currency to lapse, you would be grateful that you spent the 5 minutes to fill out the 1 form and send it in with your airworthiness application to get your repairmans certificate.
 
Direct C51 said:
A note to those who are A&Ps and considering not getting a repairmans certificate for an airplane they built and plan to own. If for some reason you decide to change careers, retire, or for some other reason allow your A&P currency to lapse, you would be grateful that you spent the 5 minutes to fill out the 1 form and send it in with your airworthiness application to get your repairmans certificate.
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A&P never lapses it is always good.
A&Ps do not need the repairman's certificate to work on any E/AB.
 
This is is my last reply Tom because I'm not sure if you are trolling or you legitimately have such a weak understanding of the regulations. Either way, I think the rest of the members can determine what's good advice and what's bad advice.

Tom-D said:
When you have an A&P you can do the Conditional inspection on the the aircraft. so you really don't need the R/Certificate. There is then a advantage to not getting it. because the next owner can apply for it. (Selling advantage).
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Here you are inferring that the airplane already has a special airworthiness certificate since you can't decide whether or not to get a repairmans certificate until you apply for the special airworthiness.

Tom-D said:
As has been pointed out prior in this thread, "You lie your ass off"

What happens when the 8130-6 has not been filed?
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Here you are referring to an airplane that has not yet had the airworthiness certificate applied for. In this case, I suppose the buyer could lie, file the 8130-6 as the primary builder, apply for the repairmans certificate, and prove that they have the knowledge to perform the condition inspection. But that's not what you were trying to argue in the above quote.

Tom-D said:
Or when it has, and no repairmen certificate has been issued.
Can it be issued to the second or later owner?
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Now we are back to an airplane that has had the special airworthiness applied for. I'm beginning to think you don't know what an 8130-6 is. No it (repairmans certificate) cannot be issued to the second or later owner because the second or later owner didn't sign in block III of the 8130-6 and is therefore not considered the primary builder. Sure you can lie, fill out the application for repairmans certificate, and take it to the FSDO, but I would be highly surprised if they didn't compare that to the 8130-6 and see that you are not the primary builder.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
full disclosure.....your A&P never expires.
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Well then it's a good thing I said "allow your currency to lapse" and not "expire" isn't it?

FAR 65.83

Tom-D said:
A&P never lapses it is always good.
A&Ps do not need the repairman's certificate to work on any E/AB.
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Read the FAR above. And please tell us where you work as an A&P so we all know where FARs are not known nor followed.
 
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technically....they are not FARs.....they be CFRs....title 14 to be zact. :D
 
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Direct C51 said:
Here you are referring to an airplane that has not yet had the airworthiness certificate applied for. In this case, I suppose the buyer could lie, file the 8130-6 as the primary builder, apply for the repairmans certificate, and prove that they have the knowledge to perform the condition inspection.
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Why do you keep referring to the AWC the we are discussing the Repairman's certificate.
Do you believe they are one and the same?

many E/AB aircraft are flying with a AWC, but no assigned repairman.
 
Tom-D said:
Why do you keep referring to the AWC the we are discussing the Repairman's certificate.
Do you believe they are one and the same?

many E/AB aircraft are flying with a AWC, but no assigned repairman.
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Ughhh, one last time for you because I honestly think you aren't a troll, you just don't understand.

8130-6 is an application for airworthiness certificate.

Block III of the 8130-6 has a place that must be signed verifying the aircraft has been inspected and is airworthy. The FAA considers the signer of this block to be the "primary builder".

Only the "primary builder" can apply for a repairmans certificate.

Additionally, you must submit an application for repairmans certificate at the time of original certification of the aircraft. This means when the 8130-6 is submitted.

Therefore, when you apply for the special airworthiness, the primary builder (singed block III on form 8130-6) chooses at that time whether to apply for a repairmans certificate or not. There is simply no scenario where you can choose not to apply for a repairmans certificate, then sell it at a later date and have the new owner apply for a repairmans certificate.

You just can't convince some people that they are wrong, no matter how many facts are presented to them.
 
Tom-D said:
A&P never lapses it is always good.
A&Ps do not need the repairman's certificate to work on any E/AB.
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Wait! I done been wasting my money paying an A&P to do my condition inspections when I got a buddy that used to work as an A&P years ago? I bet he will do the inspection for a six pack and a ride. But perhaps not in that order
 
Direct C51 said:
Ughhh, one last time for you because I honestly think you aren't a troll, you just don't understand.

8130-6 is an application for airworthiness certificate.

Block III of the 8130-6 has a place that must be signed verifying the aircraft has been inspected and is airworthy. The FAA considers the signer of this block to be the "primary builder".

Only the "primary builder" can apply for a repairmans certificate.

Additionally, you must submit an application for repairmans certificate at the time of original certification of the aircraft. This means when the 8130-6 is submitted.

Therefore, when you apply for the special airworthiness, the primary builder (singed block III on form 8130-6) chooses at that time whether to apply for a repairmans certificate or not. There is simply no scenario where you can choose not to apply for a repairmans certificate, then sell it at a later date and have the new owner apply for a repairmans certificate.

You just can't convince some people that they are wrong, no matter how many facts are presented to them.
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The primary builder is the manufacturer on the airworthiness certificate and that is the only one that can get the repairman certificate. To get the RC the DAR will write you a recommend letter when he issues the airworthiness if he is satisfied that you know all of the systems and are competent enough to do the inspections. On both of mine the DAR asked a ton of questions about the construction and systems as we went over the airplane. You then have to take the letter to the FSDO in person to get the RC. Don
 
Just a few points to remember when someone is suggesting to falsify documentation:

§65.20 Applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, and records: Falsification, reproduction, or alteration.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made—

(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate or rating under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used, to show compliance with any requirement for any certificate or rating under this part;

(3) Any reproduction, for fraudulent purpose, of any certificate or rating under this part; or

(4) Any alteration of any certificate or rating under this part.

(b) The commission by any person of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman or ground instructor certificate or rating held by that person.

The FAA will take ALL ratings from anyone who falsifies a document. Be careful.
 
yakdriver said:
The primary builder is the manufacturer on the airworthiness certificate and that is the only one that can get the repairman certificate. To get the RC the DAR will write you a recommend letter when he issues the airworthiness if he is satisfied that you know all of the systems and are competent enough to do the inspections. On both of mine the DAR asked a ton of questions about the construction and systems as we went over the airplane. You then have to take the letter to the FSDO in person to get the RC. Don
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IOWs I find an old project that is mostly complete, bring it home, finish it, and apply my name on the 8130-6, I'm good to go.
IOWs I buy a completed flying aircraft, bring it home, Clean it (etc) do a bunch of restoration, slap a new data tag on it, submit the 8103-6 with my name on it ,,, and ?

People do this, and they get away with it. simply because the FAA doesn't track any thing but the data tag, which you can buy almost anywhere.
And the DARs that issue AWCs can't tell how long you took to build the aircraft.

Yes, the previous data stays on record at OKC until the registration runs out.
 
Direct C51 said:
Ughhh, one last time for you because I honestly think you aren't a troll, you just don't understand.

8130-6 is an application for airworthiness certificate.

Block III of the 8130-6 has a place that must be signed verifying the aircraft has been inspected and is airworthy. The FAA considers the signer of this block to be the "primary builder".

Only the "primary builder" can apply for a repairmans certificate.

Additionally, you must submit an application for repairmans certificate at the time of original certification of the aircraft. This means when the 8130-6 is submitted.

Therefore, when you apply for the special airworthiness, the primary builder (singed block III on form 8130-6) chooses at that time whether to apply for a repairmans certificate or not. There is simply no scenario where you can choose not to apply for a repairmans certificate, then sell it at a later date and have the new owner apply for a repairmans certificate.

You just can't convince some people that they are wrong, no matter how many facts are presented to them.
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Do you really believe that people can't throw all that paper away and start over?
 
A couple years ago, I was asked to do a conditional inspection on a Kit Fox in Marysville Wa. I drove down there to see this aircraft and do the inspection. I first noticed that the paper work was dated 2 years old, but with the old type letter of limitations that does not have the requirement to comply with FAR 43-D as the conditional.
I didn't know what to think of that, but we went to look at the aircraft. and it looked brand new.
I thought to my self, I smell a rat, and told the guy no thanks find some one else.

I think many times these aircraft records are destroyed for liable reasons by the builder to break the chain of liability.

The only way to get them registered again, is to Lie your ass off, with new paper work.
 
Tom-D said:
The only way to get them registered again, is to Lie your ass off, with new paper work.
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Nice to see you advocating committing an action which will result in the total loss of all the certificates a person holds if they were to follow your example. The FAA takes a hard line on falsifying documents.

Which leads me to ask what other documentation you have falsified since you seem to think this is OK?
 
Doc Holliday said:
Nice to see you advocating committing an action which will result in the total loss of all the certificates a person holds if they were to follow your example. The FAA takes a hard line on falsifying documents.

Which leads me to ask what other documentation you have falsified since you seem to think this is OK?
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Not advocating any thing, just saying, its the only way, and gets done most every day, and The FAA seem to do nothing about it.
 
Tom-D said:
Not advocating any thing, just saying, its the only way, and gets done most every day, and The FAA seem to do nothing about it.
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Can you cite a source that shows the FAA does nothing about individuals submitting fraudulent paperwork?

And yes, you are advocating your position of "lying your ass off" as you put it.
 
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