Removing airport manager

Let'sgoflying! said:
They generally see success in dollar signs and forget that an airport is there to provide a public service, not necessarily a revenue-generating operation. The money largely comes from, well, the people with deep pockets so they want to edge out us little guys in our flivvers, and encourage the jet traffic.
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One point, the general public don't see airports as a public service, especially General Aviation. The average John Q taxpayer, and the representatives they elect, see an airport only serving those with deep pockets like a country club, and therefore want it to be self supported. Even then, how many communities are currently trying to close their neighboring airport because that land would be more valuable as a park or development. Unfortunately that sentiment is spreading, part of the ongoing war between the haves and have nots.

Second, few if any public airport managers are paid based on the revenue the airport receives unless it is an FBO being contracted to manage the airport. Most are public employees of the city, county, or authority with a fixed pay structure. The police chief doesnt get a % of the tickets his department writes.
 
My question for the OP is: Has he specifically injured you? Because honestly your "zeal" in the matter makes me think it's more personal than objective. I'm not saying shoot the messenger at all, but it's always to good to ask the "why" questions.

Also, if his wife runs the flight school, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's being corrupt. I mean, in today's society it's almost offensive to think that a strong woman couldn't be a good and careful business owner, and looking at it from one direction, if he got removed, would he be replaced by someone with MORE incentive to keep the airport alive, vibrant, and feasible? I WANT people who understand GA and have a stake it it's success running airports...
 
midwestpa24 said:
One point, the general public don't see airports as a public service, especially General Aviation. The average John Q taxpayer, and the representatives they elect, see an airport only serving those with deep pockets like a country club, and therefore want it to be self supported.
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i take your point, and offer this counterpoint for consideration:

All infrastructure associated with the many forms of our country’s transportation should correctly be considered as being provided for our citizens’ benefit - as one group of people.

From bike trails & bike lanes, sidewalks & stairs, waterways, airports, highways and city streets, rail transport - these all either are not, or should not be pay-per-use, they should be public services paid for as a community without penalizing those who actually do use them.

Put another way, should every sidewalk have a pay-meter to allow pedestrians to use them? 25c into the meter for every 100’ walked?
(I never agreed with highway tolls or any form of “we charge because we can get away with it”)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
i take your point, and offer this counterpoint for consideration:

All infrastructure associated with the many forms of our country’s transportation should correctly be considered as being provided for our citizens’ benefit - as one group of people.

From bike trails & bike lanes, sidewalks & stairs, waterways, airports, highways and city streets, rail transport - these all either are not, or should not be pay-per-use, they should be public services paid for as a community without penalizing those who actually do use them.

Put another way, should every sidewalk have a pay-meter to allow pedestrians to use them? 25c into the meter for every 100’ walked?
(I never agreed with highway tolls or any form of “we charge because we can get away with it”)
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The "Commerce Clause" cited in Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution authorizes the federal government the sole power to regulate and protect the freedom of moving commercial goods between locations from state to state, and between U.S and international destinations.

Hence, any and all commercial air travel infringed by local and state governmental entities would/should be considered unconstitutional. Not a lawyer, but this makes perfect sense to me.

As such, I still don't know how Mayor Daley got away with summarily shutting down Chicago's Meigs Airport without America's commercial air travel operators winning in court and stopping that travesty.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
i take your point, and offer this counterpoint for consideration:

All infrastructure associated with the many forms of our country’s transportation should correctly be considered as being provided for our citizens’ benefit - as one group of people.

From bike trails & bike lanes, sidewalks & stairs, waterways, airports, highways and city streets, rail transport - these all either are not, or should not be pay-per-use, they should be public services paid for as a community without penalizing those who actually do use them.

Put another way, should every sidewalk have a pay-meter to allow pedestrians to use them? 25c into the meter for every 100’ walked?
(I never agreed with highway tolls or any form of “we charge because we can get away with it”)
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While I agree with your counterpoint in theory, the reality is different.

The average citizen doesn't relate to general aviation, anymore than they do to country clubs or yacht clubs. They don't see the utility in it, they don't see the benefit, its just a tax payer subsidized playground for the rich and powerful in their mind. I'm not arguing that their viewpoint is necessarily correct, but it is the truth for a majority of the population. Just one example, if an airport with scheduled service loses that service, most people think the airport will just close and get bulldozed. How many communities are trying to close and bulldoze their GA airports? How many new public GA airports have been built in the last two decades? The only ones that come to mind only happened because two airports were replaced by one.
 
RyanShort1 said:
My question for the OP is: Has he specifically injured you? Because honestly your "zeal" in the matter makes me think it's more personal than objective. I'm not saying shoot the messenger at all, but it's always to good to ask the "why" questions.

Also, if his wife runs the flight school, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's being corrupt. I mean, in today's society it's almost offensive to think that a strong woman couldn't be a good and careful business owner, and looking at it from one direction, if he got removed, would he be replaced by someone with MORE incentive to keep the airport alive, vibrant, and feasible? I WANT people who understand GA and have a stake it it's success running airports...
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Fwiw he's listed as an instructor and is also a dpe.
 
I don’t know anything except what is posted, but I wonder how much more fuel the flight school buys vs the tenants. How many hours of maintenance vs the tenants? Maybe the flight school deserves the improvements.
 
texasclouds said:
I don’t know anything except what is posted, but I wonder how much more fuel the flight school buys vs the tenants. How many hours of maintenance vs the tenants? Maybe the flight school deserves the improvements.
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100%
 
Rick A said:
The "Commerce Clause" cited in Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution authorizes the federal government the sole power to regulate and protect the freedom of moving commercial goods between locations from state to state, and between U.S and international destinations.

Hence, any and all commercial air travel infringed by local and state governmental entities would/should be considered unconstitutional. Not a lawyer, but this makes perfect sense to me.

As such, I still don't know how Mayor Daley got away with summarily shutting down Chicago's Meigs Airport without America's commercial air travel operators winning in court and stopping that travesty.
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Was a commercial air travel plaintiff a party to a lawsuit claiming Dailey’s actions were unconstitutional? The plaintiff was AOPA and they represent Part 91 non-commercial air travel.
 
Clip4 said:
Was a commercial air travel plaintiff a party to a lawsuit claiming Dailey’s actions were unconstitutional? The plaintiff was AOPA and they represent Part 91 non-commercial air travel.
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Don't know. I'm surprised there were no other plaintiffs that sued which had stronger standing. Considering the politics in Chicago, someone funding the legal fees on their own likely wasn't damaged enough to invest their own money to fix it. A real shame.
 
Just my 2 cents, but I'd guess that removing someone from a political position in Chicago because they "seem shady" might be about as likely as getting someone removed from a similar NYC office because they "seem rude".

I say that not to be rude, but to suggest some sort of alternative solution. If you were in NYC and didn't like direct speaking people, I'd suggest moving.
 
Rick A said:
As such, I still don't know how Mayor Daley got away with summarily shutting down Chicago's Meigs Airport without America's commercial air travel operators winning in court and stopping that travesty.
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Oh, there were a few reasons Daley got away with it. The two primary reasons were post 9/11 fear of having an airport that close to downtown Chicago (e.g. planes flying right to downtown "could" be normal traffic... or not) and the other was that the airport was totally owned by the City of Chicago.

Also, the FAA had no real legal recourse as no one thought they needed to have any regs or anything in place to keep a city from destroying their own airport. Chicago did have to pay a $33,000 penalty for failing to give 30 days notice on closing an airport and also repay $1 million in FAA improvement grants. Pocket change for Chicago.

As to why he did it, from what I've heard there was a plan from the early 1900s that had a big park there on the water and Daley always loved that idea. And by not discussing the plan, just destroying the airport over night, there was no chance for anyone to drag it out in the courts fighting his plan. He just did it.
 
Mr. Albany Tom is spot on. Your current Chicago / Illinois government is doing so many terrible things that the condition of one of its GA airports doesn't even make the list. Your plane will be impounded or just disappear, bad things in your future if the current manager finds out what you've already posted.

Lived in the Chicago area for 10 years. I wouldn't suggest anyone move to Chicago today.
 
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M20K said:
Oh, there were a few reasons Daley got away with it. The two primary reasons were post 9/11 fear of having an airport that close to downtown Chicago (e.g. planes flying right to downtown "could" be normal traffic... or not) and the other was that the airport was totally owned by the City of Chicago.

Also, the FAA had no real legal recourse as no one thought they needed to have any regs or anything in place to keep a city from destroying their own airport. Chicago did have to pay a $33,000 penalty for failing to give 30 days notice on closing an airport and also repay $1 million in FAA improvement grants. Pocket change for Chicago.

As to why he did it, from what I've heard there was a plan from the early 1900s that had a big park there on the water and Daley always loved that idea. And by not discussing the plan, just destroying the airport over night, there was no chance for anyone to drag it out in the courts fighting his plan. He just did it.
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That first argument never held water for me. With the airport there the planes were controlled by a tower. without the tower I can fly fat dumb and happy at or below 2000 (~1200 agl) and not have to talk to anybody.

I'll also add that our current governor went out to C09 of all places last year to announce a new runway to be built.
 
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Racerx said:
That first argument never held water for me. With the airport there the planes were controlled by a tower. without the tower I can fly fat dumb and happy at or below 2000 (~1200 agl) and not have to talk to anybody.

I'll also add that our governor went out to C09 of all places last year to announce a new runway to be built.
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Ah, but you’re applying logic to an emotional argument.

Of course, the 9/11 airliners were under ATC control as well.
 
Clip4 said:
Was a commercial air travel plaintiff a party to a lawsuit claiming Dailey’s actions were unconstitutional? The plaintiff was AOPA and they represent Part 91 non-commercial air travel.
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M20K said:
As to why he did it, from what I've heard there was a plan from the early 1900s that had a big park there on the water and Daley always loved that idea. And by not discussing the plan, just destroying the airport over night, there was no chance for anyone to drag it out in the courts fighting his plan. He just did it.
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Bit of a thread drift, but Meigs is an interesting topic nonetheless.

There was no scheduled service to Meigs when it was demolished, and there hadn't been for a long time. I don't know all the details of any suits after the runway was destroyed, but obviously they didn't go anywhere. As the saying goes, "You can't fight city hall."

I've heard rumblings that Daley's wife was a strong proponent of turning it into a park. Hard to argue with a lobbyist who you sleep with every night, I suppose.

Regardless, every history I've read of the Meigs makes it seem like it was always going to end up closed, one way or another. Daley was first elected in 1989, and he was advocating for its closure as early as the mid-90s. The fact that Meigs lasted as long as it did (til 2003) is amazing.
 
fasteddie said:
Bit of a thread drift, but Meigs is an interesting topic nonetheless.

There was no scheduled service to Meigs when it was demolished, and there hadn't been for a long time. I don't know all the details of any suits after the runway was destroyed, but obviously they didn't go anywhere. As the saying goes, "You can't fight city hall."

I've heard rumblings that Daley's wife was a strong proponent of turning it into a park. Hard to argue with a lobbyist who you sleep with every night, I suppose.

Regardless, every history I've read of the Meigs makes it seem like it was always going to end up closed, one way or another. Daley was first elected in 1989, and he was advocating for its closure as early as the mid-90s. The fact that Meigs lasted as long as it did (til 2003) is amazing.
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The reality is the cost/reward to operate a several airports in the rust belt ended with the demise of manufacturing.
 
fasteddie said:
Bit of a thread drift, but Meigs is an interesting topic nonetheless.

There was no scheduled service to Meigs when it was demolished, and there hadn't been for a long time.
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Not thread drift at all. Public airports are all a key component of our National Transportation system. This fact should be remembered during any issues or policies that may affect the viability of an airport's operations, safety, or existence. Especially if the airport in question has received federal funds.

The fact that the Mayor of a large city was able to close and destroy an asset of the National Transportation System with nary a whimper from the aviation industry and the FAA, sets a terrible example. Not only for the future of aviation, but also the future of personal freedoms.

Obviously air commerce related to flying represents much more than just paid for seats on scheduled carriers. A licensed private pilot flying to a business appointment should not be forced by a local or state government politician or employee to fly out of state on a scheduled airline from somewhere else.

Any public airport, or even a straight length of Interstate Highway, can be commandeered by the Federal government and used for public safety. Airports are truly assets to their communities, almost everywhere they exist. Airports are not just placeholders for future real estate developments and the inevitable growth of the tax base.
 
Clip4 said:
The reality is the cost/reward to operate a several airports in the rust belt ended with the demise of manufacturing.
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Huh? Reality? While technically in the rust belt, Chicago never had a decline like Detroit, Cleveland or other big manufacturing cities did. Surely you're not trying to argue that Meigs was shut down for economic, rather than political, reasons?
 
I think it's really simple. It's not economic, and it's not quite political. It's control. An airport suitable to fly small planes to is a representation and symbol of individual freedom. Some people don't like and are even afraid of individual freedom. Not the only example in Chicago, or other big cities for that matter. The higher the population density, the more draconian.
 
Albany Tom said:
I think it's really simple. It's not economic, and it's not quite political. It's control. An airport suitable to fly small planes to is a representation and symbol of individual freedom. Some people don't like and are even afraid of individual freedom. Not the only example in Chicago, or other big cities for that matter. The higher the population density, the more draconian.
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Its amazing how many people that have never been exposed to GA can't believe I can go get in my airplane at an uncontrolled airport and just go fly wherever and whenever I want. I don't have to ask anyone, tell anyone, or file a flight plan. Think of all the news articles on GA crashes where the media thinks its important to state that "No flight plan was filed", as if it was part of some evil plan or in any way contributed to the accident.
 
172andyou said:
Huh? Reality? While technically in the rust belt, Chicago never had a decline like Detroit, Cleveland or other big manufacturing cities did. Surely you're not trying to argue that Meigs was shut down for economic, rather than political, reasons?
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Purely economic reasons. Cities kiss the asses of big companies. There are many airports across the rust belt at risk because they were anchored to regional manufacturing companies. If those companies were in the community and utilizing the airports, they would have objected to the closure. No big company in Chicago voiced an objection to closing Meigs. No big company is voicing an objection to closing Burke either. A park is a lot more economic to operate than an airport.
 
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midwestpa24 said:
Its amazing how many people that have never been exposed to GA can't believe I can go get in my airplane at an uncontrolled airport and just go fly wherever and whenever I want. I don't have to ask anyone, tell anyone, or file a flight plan. Think of all the news articles on GA crashes where the media thinks its important to state that "No flight plan was filed", as if it was part of some evil plan or in any way contributed to the accident.
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I was traveling not to long ago and an old episode of "Unforgettable" was being replayed. At one point the techie was telling them that not all planes have transponders. BUT... she could track the raw radar data back to what airport the plane left from and ALL aircraft have to file a flight plan. :eek: So there ya go... You should have been filing all these years because the techie on Unforgettable said so!!:D

And I think enough pilots have called in to all the stations over the last few decades to yell at them. I don't hear the "and no flight plan was filed" any more. Maybe I'm just oblivious to it, so I'll have to pay more attention in the future.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Find the local reporter that likes to showcase that stuff.
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Tough to find one nowadays. Journalism died years ago and what remains is usually agenda driven, targeting the opposing political party.

In the case of the OP's beefs, what could likely end up being reported is a story about how the city needs to fire the private contractor it receives royalties from for running the airport under a concession contract. With the agenda being the city needs to hire their own employee(s) to run it more honestly and efficiently to keep the taxpayers from getting ripped off.

Local government jobs are often bulletproof, unless the government employee does something over the top like murdering someone on camera, confessing, and go to jail. Even then they probably get to keep their retirement and health plan for life...
 
Rick A said:
Local government jobs are often bulletproof, unless the government employee does something over the top like murdering someone on camera, confessing, and go to jail. Even then they probably get to keep their retirement and health plan for life...
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Former Illinois house speaker Mike madigan was the longest serving leader of any state or federal country in US history. He was convicted of racketeering and wire fraud and his 158k a year pension ceased days after conviction.
 
Racerx said:
Former Illinois house speaker Mike madigan was the longest serving leader of any state or federal country in US history. He was convicted of racketeering and wire fraud and his 158k a year pension ceased days after conviction.
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He and his family probably got to keep many of the millions he stole throughout his long duration political favor inspired criminal enterprise. Wink, wink.

Losing the pension was likely an optical pittance intended to keep the hard working tax paying peasants happy. They may have fined him too, and given him a gentleman's prison sentence to make it look even more serious (out much sooner than sentenced for good behavior). Yeah, we showed that crook what happens.

Any way you look at it, it's a joke. Certainly not serious enough enforcement and punishment dealt out to prevent the next guy from doing the same.
 
Clip4 said:
Purely economic reasons. Cities kiss the asses of big companies. There are many airports across the rust belt at risk because they were anchored to regional manufacturing companies. If those companies were in the community and utilizing the airports, they would have objected to the closure. No big company in Chicago voiced an objection to closing Meigs. No big company is voicing an objection to closing Burke either. A park is a lot more economic to operate than an airport.
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You keep saying "rust belt" like it applies to Chicago. Remember, that term has meaning. Specifically, "the declining industrial heartland of the Midwest and the north-eastern United States, spec. the area around Pittsburgh and other steel-producing towns; (also) a similar area elsewhere"

Chicago has not had that decline. It's a diverse economy and vibrant city.

Gary, OTOH...
 
Rick A said:
He and his family probably got to keep many of the millions he stole throughout his long duration political favor inspired criminal enterprise. Wink, wink.

Losing the pension was likely an optical pittance intended to keep the hard working tax paying peasants happy. They may have fined him too, and given him a gentleman's prison sentence to make it look even more serious (out much sooner than sentenced for good behavior). Yeah, we showed that crook what happens.

Any way you look at it, it's a joke. Certainly not serious enough enforcement and punishment dealt out to prevent the next guy from doing the same.
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He was also fined 2.5 million.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Its amazing how many people that have never been exposed to GA can't believe I can go get in my airplane at an uncontrolled airport and just go fly wherever and whenever I want.
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I would ask them if they think the same restrictions should apply before they get in their SUV and drive themselves someplace. Their SUV weighs twice what the 172 I fly weighs; it is capable of the same speeds, and "flys" a hell of alot closer to other people and things than I ever did in the Cessna.

Government chooses to abuse pilots becasue they are a small enough population to not have political power to fight back.
 
Racerx said:
He was also fined 2.5 million.
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Big deal... that's one payoff. How many years was this guy in the business of collecting money for deciding who wins and who loses business in his areas of political influence peddling? You don't get paid the big bucks until after you deliver. 2.5 million may sound like a lot of money, but is small change in this racket.

Ask any Minnesota day care operator how much cash needs to be kicked back into to the political system that makes it all possible.
 
172andyou said:
You keep saying "rust belt" like it applies to Chicago. Remember, that term has meaning. Specifically, "the declining industrial heartland of the Midwest and the north-eastern United States, spec. the area around Pittsburgh and other steel-producing towns; (also) a similar area elsewhere"

Chicago has not had that decline. It's a diverse economy and vibrant city.

Gary, OTOH...
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Chicago lost roughly half of its manufacturing jobs and nearly 4,000 companies between 1980 and 2000. Meigs closed in 2003. Economic conditions in 2026 aren’t relevant to the economic decisions that had to be made in 2003, but
Nabisco pulled out of Chicago in 2016, Caterpillar pulled its corporate offices in 2022, Schumacher Electric is gone. These are recent exits.

Major rust belt cities include, Baltimore, Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati, St Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester.
 
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Clip4 said:
Chicago lost roughly half of its manufacturing jobs and nearly 4,000 companies between 1980 and 2000.
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While adding services jobs at a rate that more than compensated for those losses.
 
Clip4 said:
Chicago lost roughly half of its manufacturing jobs and nearly 4,000 companies between 1980 and 2000. Meigs closed in 2003. Economic conditions in 2026 aren’t relevant to the economic decisions that had to be made in 2003, but
Nabisco pulled out of Chicago in 2016, Caterpillar pulled its corporate offices in 2022, Schumacher Electric is gone. These are recent exits.

Major rust belt cities include, Baltimore, Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati, St Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester.
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Boeing HQ touched down in Chicago for a hot minute, before relocating adjacent to the Pentagon in Crystal City, VA -- to gain "proximity to our customers and stakeholders".

The side of their HQ building facing the Pentagon has the conspicuous branding. I don't remember seeing any sign on the opposite side, facing Reagan National Airport. Make of that decision what you will.
1780511346904.png
 
DJTorrente said:
Boeing HQ touched down in Chicago for a hot minute, before relocating adjacent to the Pentagon in Crystal City, VA -- to gain "proximity to our customers and stakeholders".

The side of their HQ building facing the Pentagon has the conspicuous branding. I don't remember seeing any sign on the opposite side, facing Reagan National Airport. Make of that decision what you will.
View attachment 152485
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I make of it that they put branding on the front of the building, not the back, which seems pretty typical. Especially because the back actually faces apartment buildings, not a thoroughfare. What do you make of it?
 
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