Rant On: Commercial Air Travel Is The Pits!

sarangan said:
I never understood the appeal of paying for premium class, but I am glad people do because their higher fare subsidizes everyone else in the economy class.
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it could be looked at the other way... my first class seat is less expensive because of the people willing to be squeezed into tiny seats in steerage
 
sarangan said:
I never understood the appeal of paying for premium class, but I am glad people do because their higher fare subsidizes everyone else in the economy class. I am willing to pay more for better connections or non-stops, but sitting in a smaller seat for a few hours and saving a few hundred bucks is ok with me.
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How many inches, measured across your back, to the outsides of you deltoid shoulder muscles? I’m not fat, nor well muscled, but that width for me is more than any seat other than first class. I’m begging the airlines to sell a slightly upgraded seat that’s 3-4” wider than standard for a couple hundred bucks. More legroom is nice but I can fold 6’3” in lengthwise, it’s shoulder width that lets you arrive with severe neck and upper back pain from rolling your shoulders in so you don’t bother the FAs nor the middle seat person


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sarangan said:
I never understood the appeal of paying for premium class, but I am glad people do because their higher fare subsidizes everyone else in the economy class. I am willing to pay more for better connections or non-stops, but sitting in a smaller seat for a few hours and saving a few hundred bucks is ok with me.
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The first class cabins on most domestic flights are filled to capacity, with many or most seats filled by loyalty program upgrades, and they are not subsidizing anyone back in steerage. Depending on the airline and flight, it’s possible that NO first class pax paid full fare for their seat

It also may happen that, for pax who did pay full fare, some in F paid less than some in Y.

On a given flight, within the same class of service, it’s quite possible that no two pax paid the same fare.

First class hasn’t really been first class in over two decades, because those seats have become a sort of loss leader for airline companies that figured out how to obtain revenue from credit card programs and other ancillary sources. Consequently, the quality of service has steadily declined to the point that it barely rivals that experienced by pre-deregulation economy class pax. But yes, the seats are more comfortable.
 
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The seat width got rekt in late 1990s (18.5 wide to 16" wide), the pitch reductions were more gradual starting with de-reg in 1978. It's the former that is a problem for me and I'm an **FAA std adult which is to say non-std American (**5'9 170#, V framed athletic build), and I cannot sit in a coach seat without one arm occupying the arm space of another passenger. As a result I have to twist and hold, or give myself scoliosis for the duration. 2 hours? lmao, get bent, they ought to outlaw 121 that short. Try 5-6 hours in the back of a literal-atlantic crossing slave trade ship aka -738. And that's domestic VFR market btw, not intl discretionary recreation.


MIFlyer said:
How many inches, measured across your back, to the outsides of you deltoid shoulder muscles? I’m not fat, nor well muscled, but that width for me is more than any seat other than first class. I’m begging the airlines to sell a slightly upgraded seat that’s 3-4” wider than standard for a couple hundred bucks. More legroom is nice but I can fold 6’3” in lengthwise, it’s shoulder width that lets you arrive with severe neck and upper back pain from rolling your shoulders in so you don’t bother the FAs nor the middle seat person
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You're not alone, don't let them gaslight you. Seat width is a major problem, and one that is my #1 complaint. Though in fairness, it is the pitch reductions which have in fact killed people. Just because this race to the bottom is "legal" doesn't mean it's right. Stand by for the "flYinG iS nOt a RighT!!!" white knights in 3..2....
 
sarangan said:
I never understood the appeal of paying for premium class, but I am glad people do because their higher fare subsidizes everyone else in the economy class. I am willing to pay more for better connections or non-stops, but sitting in a smaller seat for a few hours and saving a few hundred bucks is ok with me.
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Depends on how long I’m married to the seat. When I was looking into a trip to New Zealand those business class seats seemed pretty reasonable.
 
I make the analogy between field cows and feed lot cows all the time. But it doesn't get old to me, sorry. One difference is that cows are smart enough that given the choice they'd pick the field and fresh grass. People would take the feed lot, every time...and they do. It's why we have walmart, mcdonalds, car insurance ads, and smaller airplane seats. Airlines make the seats smaller because they can. It's kinda evil, but nobody cares enough.

It is kinda funny, though, that 1960's airplane seats, when people were generally smaller in size and much lighter in weight, were bigger than current airplane seats where fully 50% of the people on board are about twice the weight they should be. Someone visiting from another planet would compare the aircraft to a giant tube of toothpaste.
 
sarangan said:
I never understood the appeal of paying for premium class, but I am glad people do because their higher fare subsidizes everyone else in the economy class. I am willing to pay more for better connections or non-stops, but sitting in a smaller seat for a few hours and saving a few hundred bucks is ok with me.
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My wife grew up poor. We never used to want to spend money on airfares and booked as cheap as possible (also when flying for work I was pretty much required) but I did play the upgrade game a lot (especially at times when I had status).

After a particularly bad series of flights, my investment guy called me with two messages:
1. You're not going to run out of money.
2. You're not allowed to fly in the back anymore.
 
flyingron said:
After a particularly bad series of flights, my investment guy called me with two messages:
1. You're not going to run out of money.
2. You're not allowed to fly in the back anymore.
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I used to beat my investment guy up pretty good in his Baron to keep him alive to manage my money. The first time we flew together (January in cold country) he had pits down to his belt. I measured his progress by the decrease in the depth of his pits with each training session. :rofl:
 
Roger Wilco said:
The first class cabins on most domestic flights are filled to capacity, with many or most seats filled by loyalty program upgrades, and they are not subsidizing anyone back in steerage.
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That's far from true these days. It's less common for even the highest level (I've been AA Executive Platinum for years) travellers to get a complementary upgrade on most flights. What has been happening is that what AA calls "instant upgrade" fills most of the seats. This is the upselling of people with existing paid economy seats into first class (without consideration of their status). I used to wait for such upgrades on LH and KL and pounce on them, though at times they weren't avialable. Back when I had an airpass contract on AA, they'd usually let me get a instant upgrade for the price of the coach fare at booking, but that sweet deal went away several years ago when AA stopped renewing those contracts.
 
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sarangan said:
I never understood the appeal of paying for premium class, but I am glad people do because their higher fare subsidizes everyone else in the economy class. I am willing to pay more for better connections or non-stops, but sitting in a smaller seat for a few hours and saving a few hundred bucks is ok with me.
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I have been flying business or first class more and more. I at least check it for any flights, often times finding the additional cost isn't as much as you think it is. Most airlines also include free checked bags with the upgrade, making it even more break even. I am not a huge guy, but even then don't fit comfortably in what passes for a regular economy seat anymore. $100 to be comfortable for the next couple of hours, worth it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have been flying business or first class more and more. I at least check it for any flights, often times finding the additional cost isn't as much as you think it is. Most airlines also include free checked bags with the upgrade, making it even more break even. I am not a huge guy, but even then don't fit comfortably in what passes for a regular economy seat anymore. $100 to be comfortable for the next couple of hours, worth it.
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I'm 6'1" and not particularly wide. The triggering flight was when I was in a middle seat (Margy had the window) in regular economy on a 12 hour flight and the guy next to me wasn't fat, but he must have had 4 inches in height on me and was proportionally bigger all around. The two of us were pretty much rubbing shoulders all flight.

Yeah, at least on AA (I'm kind of captive with them being based in CLT).

I did take a First Class flight on an A380 on BA from BOS-LHR. That was the most comfotable flight I'd ever been on (too bad it wasn't longer). Nice long rectangular lay-flat bed with a featherbed on top. I sat in Margy's cubicle drinking Laurent-Perrier Grand Siecle (~$300) champagne for 30 minutes while the rest of the boat loaded.
 
flyingron said:
That's far from true these days. It's less common for even the highest level (I've been AA Executive Platinum for years) travellers to get a complementary upgrade on most flights. What has been happening is that what AA calls "instant upgrade" fills most of the seats. This is the upselling of people with existing paid economy seats into first class (without consideration of their status). I used to wait for such upgrades on LH and KL and pounce on them, though at times they weren't avialable. Back when I had an airpass contract on AA, they'd usually let me get a instant upgrade for the price of the coach fare at booking, but that sweet deal went away several years ago when AA stopped renewing those contracts.
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No doubt that awards and perks are constantly changing, and there are differences between airlines. I have no familiarity with American's programs, but what I know from my former employer suggests that up-sold first class (P) seats cost customers less than the same seat purchased at standard F fare. Those policies are often flight specific, depending on just how hot the competition is in a specific market or city pair.

flyingron said:
I did take a First Class flight on an A380 on BA from BOS-LHR. That was the most comfotable flight I'd ever been on (too bad it wasn't longer).
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The A380 really is a step-up comfort-wise. I've flown SFO-FRA twice on an LH A380, both times upper deck business class. It was actually too quiet--it seemed as though I could hear every conversation happening on the entire upper deck, and a few people never shut up during an entire 11-hour flight.
 
Barrett50 said:
Good ole days. When I graduated college I was on the road around the world for 40-45 weeks a year. Our corp travel office treated me well, and I had a lot o perks for most carriers. It wasn't a bad life being single, and near constant travel. Air crews were generally nice, and young, and easygoing. Missing a connection I could walk down the concourse and pick another airline and another flight and get where I was going with minimal fuss. Rarely had to sit on the apron for very long. Free beer on some flights, regular upgrades to business class.

I haven't been on a comm plane for six years. And the last time I was on one it was tragic. Just getting to the boarding gate was a hassle. No, I'm not going through the radiation chamber, I'd rather get felt up by a smelly 300Lb jerk. Boarding as crowded, people jammed up to the door. The stews are like 80 and snarling. Don't dare make eye contact - with anyone. If you are sitting next to a female, don't look, glance, lean, and god no don't bump or touch one. Overhead bins are full, seat doesn't lean back, and marginal legroom.

I hate going comm now. Avoid it at all costs. It used to be so cool, drop my MC at Lindbergh field, and run out to the tarmac, climb the airstair quickly, get the door shut and boom! an hour later I'm picking up my rental at SJC. Oh well, it was good while it lasted.
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And the way I remember it, the women were better looking those days too.
 
Albany Tom said:
It is kinda funny, though, that 1960's airplane seats, when people were generally smaller in size and much lighter in weight, were bigger than current airplane seats where fully 50% of the people on board are about twice the weight they should be. Someone visiting from another planet would compare the aircraft to a giant tube of toothpaste.
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It's not clear to me that 1960s seats were wider than 2026 seats. If we use the 737 for comparison: The 737 MAX cabin width, about 11.6', is unchanged from that of the 737-100 of 1968, and they have the same cabin width that the 707, 720, and 727 had. Those early series Boeings, when configured with 6-abreast cabin seating, used seats that were about the same width in the 1960s as the 737s flying today, with the exception of a couple of odd seats stuffed into the very last rows where the fuselage width narrows. In any case, it's difficult to directly compare seat width between different aircraft, airlines, and eras, as there are apparently no established measurement standards.

Having said all of that...if we use the 777 as an example instead of the 737, there has definitely been a reduction in economy class seat width since it was introduced in 1995. Originally configured 3-3-3, US airlines (all I think) later went to 3-4-3 which necessitated a decrease in seat width from about 18.5" to 17". Perhaps that's what hindsight2020 was thinking of.
 
JOhnH said:
I know that you are wrong. The only way you could be right is if I have gotten wider since 1960.

Uh. Never mind.
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Ha! I got wider just while typing that post. I really need to work on brevity, at the keyboard and at the table.
 
I used to work at a repair depot, installing new interiors on Boeings after the heavy checks. i don’t know how much “smaller” those Recaro seats we were installing back in the early 2000’s were. But they were definitely thinner, lighter, and less comfortable than the old ones we were pulling out.
 
Bob Noel said:
it could be looked at the other way... my first class seat is less expensive because of the people willing to be squeezed into tiny seats in steerage
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AI is telling me "First class is significantly more expensive on a per square inch basis, roughly double or more the cost of economy." So assuming the aircraft is typically configured for 50% first class by area, and 50% economy, the airline can make 33% more revenue by making the whole aircraft first class and keeping the same first class fare. Alternatively, if the total revenue is kept fixed, the first class fare should drop by 33%.
 
Jim_R said:
I didn't dare recline my seat more than a tiny bit to avoid encroaching on the person behind me.
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I paid for that recline button (lol no I don't: non-rev) so I don't feel bad at all.

The only folks I feel for are exit row and bulkhead seats: no recline.
 
Jim_R said:
There's a reason "lie-flat" seats are a thing on long-haul flights.
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I've done many 14-16+ hour flights in economy and it all comes down to seat selection. Back before they were upcharging for the premium seats my go to spot was the first row after the economy divider on the aisle. Tons of leg room, served first for meals and being able to stand in front of the exit door 'vestibule' was a lifesaver.
 
hindsight2020 said:
The seat width got rekt in late 1990s (18.5 wide to 16" wide), the pitch reductions were more gradual starting with de-reg in 1978. It's the former that is a problem for me and I'm an **FAA std adult which is to say non-std American (**5'9 170#, V framed athletic build), and I cannot sit in a coach seat without one arm occupying the arm space of another passenger. As a result I have to twist and hold, or give myself scoliosis for the duration. 2 hours? lmao, get bent, they ought to outlaw 121 that short. Try 5-6 hours in the back of a literal-atlantic crossing slave trade ship aka -738. And that's domestic VFR market btw, not intl discretionary recreation.



You're not alone, don't let them gaslight you. Seat width is a major problem, and one that is my #1 complaint. Though in fairness, it is the pitch reductions which have in fact killed people. Just because this race to the bottom is "legal" doesn't mean it's right. Stand by for the "flYinG iS nOt a RighT!!!" white knights in 3..2....
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All true. Trouble is, much of the flying public purchases their seats based solely on price. When customers only care about price, the suppliers are going to make it as cheap as possible, and that means cramming as many examples of homo sapiens as can be fit into the back of an ERJ175, no matter how many rounds of Tetris it takes to make them fit.

FWIW, I say this as a million-miles diamond status on Delta. It stinks, and it's getting worse by the week.
 
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AV8R_87 said:
True. We are past the "fog in a warm pot" point, though. The frogs are being boiled alive.
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We're a half a step away from the Asian busses that would run between here and NYC, sometimes without brakes that really worked, and sometimes where the double decker version would get lost and try to fit under a bridge it couldn't, much to the detriment of some of the upper level passengers.

No joke, and I'm way too negative today, sorry.
 
AV8R_87 said:
True. We are past the "fog in a warm pot" point, though. The frogs are being boiled alive.
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The airlines are providing multiple levels of improved comfort and have become very good at finding a price point that fills the seats with paying passengers at price increments they are willing to pay. You still have the very cheap, low-frills fare, but others, on the same airplane, are paying upcharges for seat selection, priority boarding, more legroom and bigger seats.

The airlines that are not offering these incremental upgrades, only low-frill fares, are struggling to survive.
 
StraightnLevel said:
All true. Trouble is, much of the flying public purchases their seats based solely on price. When customers only care about price, the suppliers are going to make it as cheap as possible, and that means cramming as many examples of homo sapiens as can be fit into the back of an ERJ175, no matter how many rounds of Tetris it takes to make them fit.

FWIW, I say this as a million-miles diamond status on Delta. It stinks, and it's getting worse by the week.
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It's more than that. All incentive to make air travel pleasant went out with deregulation. Before, when the government more or less fixed prices, the only way the airlines could differentiate themselves was amenities and service. Now it's a free for all.
 
sarangan said:
I never understood the appeal of paying for premium class, but I am glad people do because their higher fare subsidizes everyone else in the economy class. I am willing to pay more for better connections or non-stops, but sitting in a smaller seat for a few hours and saving a few hundred bucks is ok with me.
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I'm guessing you're one of those people who is not vertically enhanced. If you were, then you would understand.
 
We complain about those airline seats, then fly little planes with cabins barely 40" across.
My complaint is mainly about delays (I used to fly into DCA a bunch). My last three flights were ludicrous; the last one was cancelled, so I drove th 1 kilomile round trip.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
My complaint is mainly about delays
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The national airspace system is way beyond capacity.

Construction is ongoing at almost all commercial airports of any size. ATC is hiring as quickly as possible. Efforts are underway to improve ATC systems to improve both safety and capacity. Boeing and Airbus are behind on deliveries.

It is going to take some time to catch up with demand.
 
Larry in TN said:
The national airspace system is way beyond capacity.

Construction is ongoing at almost all commercial airports of any size. ATC is hiring as quickly as possible. Efforts are underway to improve ATC systems to improve both safety and capacity. Boeing and Airbus are behind on deliveries.

It is going to take some time to catch up with demand.
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How to increase the capacity of the airspace is pretty much known.

Increasing the airport capacity is a huge problem. Simply put, we need more runways. But NIMBY ....
 
Bob Noel said:
Increasing the airport capacity is a huge problem. Simply put, we need more runways. But NIMBY ....
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Airports all around the country are working to increase their capacity. The projects take many years to design, approve, fund, and complete. COVID put the entire industry way behind.
 
Larry in TN said:
Airports all around the country are working to increase their capacity. The projects take many years to design, approve, fund, and complete. COVID put the entire industry way behind.
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how many new runways have been built in the last 20 years? 30 years?

how many new runways are in the process of being built?

how many new airports are in the works? (iirc, it's been more than 30 years since the last major airport opened in the US)

We have RVSM, reduced separations in oceanic airspace, systems that allow reduced separations in the NAS, increased com capacity, but not much in the way of increasing runways. RVSM, RNP-10, RNP-4, RNP-1, RNP-.1, ADS-A. etc etc etc won't do much good if we don't have the runways to use for landings and take-offs.
 
Roger Wilco said:
Actually, the space that my seat reclines into is MY space, but you are welcome to use that space whenever my seat is not reclined.
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If I'm in coach and you're in the seat in front of me, your seat will not be able to recline. Not a question of your space or my space. It's simple geometry.
 
Bob Noel said:
How to increase the capacity of the airspace is pretty much known.

Increasing the airport capacity is a huge problem. Simply put, we need more runways. But NIMBY ....
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Yep. Plenty of "space" in the air, not so much at airports. When I was getting cancer treatment at the NIH, I flew to DCA a bunch. Ground holds at either end were common. And a bomb threat the last time.
AI could probably do scheduling better, to have a more steady arrival stream, whilst still allowing for transfers. Or maybe the capacity is too low even for an optimized schedule.
 
I find the pricing model these days frustrating.

I get that collectively "we" got what we asked for.... cheap in favor of comfort and other amenities
But I don't count myself into that "we" group entirely...and I don't like it. It's not transparent and it makes shopping for flights very difficult. Hard to find the "best deal"...or more accurately, it's hard to see who's trying to trick me the most!

It really makes me think that they see me as an idiot.
Except for a minimalist solo traveller willing to game the system.... packing light, wearing coats and clothes that would otherwise be packed in a more civilised fashion, etc... most of us aren't flying for those ultra cheap teaser fares.

Of course I want to sit with my family...especially when travelling with my daughters.... I surely don't want to have each of us...especially them....sitting solo in a middle seat where I can't keep an eye on them! No reason they shouldn't seat us together in a civilised world.

and yes of course I'll need to bring luggage.

And yeah I know I can sometimes book under a different type of ticket so it's "included", but generally I don't think it's an equal deal so it's more work to figure out which "trick" is least working against me...

I don't know if this number is accurate, but the internet tells me that the airlines will consider me, being a male, to be 200 pounds in the summer...me + my carry on. I only weigh about 155#, call it 160# dressed....so that means I should be able to bring along 40# of baggage before they even think about charging me a dime
I don't know how much my daughters weigh, but it's quite a lot less so they should have even more baggage buffer!
Regardless of all of that, it seems to me that every seat should just automatically include an allowance for a little weight and volume for stuff.
 
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