R44 into IMC?

No the R44 is definitely not IFR certified under any circumstances. Unlike most airplanes, helicopters are inherently unstable. Let go of the cyclic and you're in an unusual attitude in seconds. This means that VFR into IMC is much more dangerous than in any airplane. IFR helicopters cost millions of dollars and have artificial trim/stabilization systems.
 
There are R44s being used as IFR trainers, they have the required instruments etc. Training in them has to be performed VFR.
 
weilke said:
There are R44s being used as IFR trainers, they have the required instruments etc. Training in them has to be performed VFR.
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And taking them into the clouds would make for a very bad day.
 
MassPilot said:
And taking them into the clouds would make for a very bad day.
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Not necessarily. Someone able to maintain attitude under the hood should presumably be able to do so in real IMC. Barring significant turbulence, neither pilot nor helicopter know that they are in IMC.
Now this three-striped expert was scooting along underneath a deck for a while before he ended up in the clouds and was trying to maintain his attitude using visual cues when he lost control. That has a predictable outcome.
 
weilke said:
Not necessarily. Someone able to maintain attitude under the hood should presumably be able to do so in real IMC. Barring significant turbulence, neither pilot nor helicopter know that they are in IMC.
Now this three-striped expert was scooting along underneath a deck for a while before he ended up in the clouds and was trying to maintain his attitude using visual cues when he lost control. That has a predictable outcome.
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Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to survive in IMC in an R44. It's just that VFR into IMC seems to frequently end very badly for pilots in stable airplanes that can be flown hands off when trimmed. I'm under the impression that VFR into IMC would be several times more dangerous in an R44 that takes constant corrections just to stay upright.
 
MassPilot said:
Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to survive in IMC in an R44. It's just that VFR into IMC seems to frequently end very badly for pilots in stable airplanes that can be flown hands off when trimmed. I'm under the impression that VFR into IMC would be several times more dangerous in an R44 that takes constant corrections just to stay upright.
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I agree, there is a metric crap ton of difference between VFR only and IFR helicopters. It looks to me like HIRF (lightning) protection is another hoop. Rain removal & defog systems for windows would be another.
 
bnt83 said:
I agree, there is a metric crap ton of difference between VFR only and IFR helicopters. It looks to me like HIRF (lightning) protection is another hoop. Rain removal & defog systems for windows would be another.
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For the most part, the lightning and HIRF requiments for Part 27 helos is the same for Part 23 planes. Our VFR 407 uses a faraday cage, lightning resistant blades and the electronics capable of functioning with a HIRF episode. It would have to be upgraded to meet some of the IFR HIRF requirements, such as a larger conductive glare shield.

The real differences in certification deal with redundancy and stability. Dual generator systems and attitude indicators being one. SAS / autopilot requirements being the other. As stated above, the SAS / autopilot is quite pricey. Just the bargain variant we have is around 130 grand.

There has been a big push in recent years for the FAA to relax the more stringent IFR certification requirements. Who knows if anything will come out that anytime soon.
 
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Real video here:

Definitely a VFR-into-IMC incident. I was watching the AI and it tells a scary tale toward the end. Yikes.

R.I.P.
 
skier said:
The first helicopter certified for IFR flight was the Cessna CH-1 Skyhook, which I've heard could fly straight and level for minutes without pilot input. It's a cool helicopter worth looking up if you have some time to kill.
http://collectair.org/cessna.html

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/cessna-in-the-helicopter-age/
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Yep. Had some serious performance for a piston as well. Pikes Peak landing and 30,000 ft. You'd be lucky to hit those numbers with a turbine today.

Only one I know of is at Ft Rucker. Only way to see it, is on the "secret" tour. They really need to get some money for a building extension and get some of those one of a kinds on public display.
 
Anybody know what the horn was that sounded right before the crash? Sounded kind of like a stall horn.
 
I've had trouble watching the video in full... focusing on the AI is as tough as it gets, whew!

We all like to think that good flying is good flying and safe professional flight is safe professional flight... doesn't make any difference whose on board or what the mission is. That's probably true but I'm not a professional.

What I've learned to do is took take inventory of the possible distractions and influencers on a given flight and to try and mitigate their possible influence on the actual flight as well as the psyche of this pilot. Bride on board set to surprise her groom? Before the flight I'd be reminding myself how welcome my speech would be after I turned back and canceled the flight. The speech where I told her how much important her future family is than the fantastic surprise you had worked out for this most glorious day.

But of course I'm not a pro or rotor head so I wouldn't be making this particular flight.


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I will never get on a helicopter again, even long before I saw this video. Not because of this accident or helicopters in general.

Scary to think that most of the Medevac helicopter pilots are NOT instrument rated and fly with patients and med team.

Though that is changing as we speak.

Sad story indeed.
 
I watched that several times this morning. It was tough to watch. No way to tell what went wrong from the video. He was leaning way over to his left toward the end so you have to wonder what that's about.

I've had a few times where a passenger has snagged their clothing, purse strap, etc. on the passenger side collective, pulling it up and it was a chore to lower it. I'm not saying this was it, but a possibility. I just can't imagine another scenario where a pilot wouldn't drop the collective and edge the cyclic forward at the first hint of low rotor rpm horn.

Unlike airplanes, this helicopter can't recover once the rotors hit a certain low-side rpm limit. That's why the low rotor rpm warning gives you time to react prior to it being unrecoverable. Once the rpm slows to a certain point the rotors stall and they're flexing upward so much, the engine is unable to generate enough centrifugal force to straighten the rotors so that they'll develop lift again.
 
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Zeldman said:
I will never get on a helicopter again, even long before I saw this video. Not because of this accident or helicopters in general.

Scary to think that most of the Medevac helicopter pilots are NOT instrument rated and fly with patients and med team.

Though that is changing as we speak.

Sad story indeed.
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Once you start flying helicopters, airplanes seem ALMOST boring by comparison. I never thought I'd say that until my intro flight in an R22 20 years ago. The funny thing is that I can't explain what makes them that much more fun. They just are.
 
Zeldman said:
I will never get on a helicopter again, even long before I saw this video. Not because of this accident or helicopters in general.

Scary to think that most of the Medevac helicopter pilots are NOT instrument rated and fly with patients and med team.

Though that is changing as we speak.

Sad story indeed.
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All air abulance helicopter pilots are Instrument rated now as if April 24th. I'd say the majority of operators had it as a hiring requirement anyway. An IFR competency check is done on every annual 135 ride in the aircraft and we get Instrument training at the sim every year.

Many other changes have occurred with the new 135.600. Our aircraft is more than equipped (430,530,WAAS, SAS/AP, 500H SVT) for IFR, it's just not certified.
 
Dumb question....
In a helo, can the pilot just stop and hover and come up with a plan, like do a 180 and head back or something.
Seems like he could just hold steady and buy some time to think about plan B.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Dumb question....
In a helo, can the pilot just stop and hover and come up with a plan, like do a 180 and head back or something.
Seems like he could just hold steady and buy some time to think about plan B.
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I believe its actually more work to stop and hover vs flying forward.
 
Velocity173 said:
All air abulance helicopter pilots are Instrument rated now as if April 24th. I'd say the majority of operators had it as a hiring requirement anyway. An IFR competency check is done on every annual 135 ride in the aircraft and we get Instrument training at the sim every year.

Many other changes have occurred with the new 135.600. Our aircraft is more than equipped (430,530,WAAS, SAS/AP, 500H SVT) for IFR, it's just not certified.
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That's good to hear. Like I said I knew it was changing.

No offense but I will still wear my medical ID bracelet that says no helicopter.
 
bnt83 said:
I believe its actually more work to stop and hover vs flying forward.
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Not to mention you've lost any ground reference. I would assume it to be WAY easier (relatively speaking) to hover with ground reference as opposed to hovering on instruments only... AND have to create a plan to exit.

Dumb question, as a fixed wing guy... if you (stupidly) get into a situation like that, is there any benefit to doing a controlled crash landing? I mean... his situation was clearly not going to get any better. Why not try to ease it... as slowly as possible, with as little lateral movement as possible... down into the trees? You are still going to lose control once the blades start tearing into the trees, but that's gotta be better than falling out of the sky from several hundred feet.
 
Try single nav cross tuning an old CDI to identify an intersection hold in a Huey sometime if you want some real giggles. Looking back I don't know how I ever did it - way too much work though that's for sure.
 
Velocity173 said:
All air abulance helicopter pilots are Instrument rated now as if April 24th. I'd say the majority of operators had it as a hiring requirement anyway. An IFR competency check is done on every annual 135 ride in the aircraft and we get Instrument training at the sim every year.

Many other changes have occurred with the new 135.600. Our aircraft is more than equipped (430,530,WAAS, SAS/AP, 500H SVT) for IFR, it's just not certified.
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Good to hear. I owe my life to a medical helicopter being able to quickly transport me to an ER.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Dumb question....
In a helo, can the pilot just stop and hover and come up with a plan, like do a 180 and head back or something.
Seems like he could just hold steady and buy some time to think about plan B.
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It's possible. But like most fixed wing instructors tell you, a 180 in the clouds for someone inexperienced is a bad idea. But if you're flying along and don't notice the IMC until it's right in front of you you can absolutely do a quick stop and turn around.
 
Zeldman said:
That's good to hear. Like I said I knew it was changing.

No offense but I will still wear my medical ID bracelet that says no helicopter.
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If it were 1980, I'd have a no helicopter bracelet as well but things (equipment) have changed rapidly in the air ambulance community in just the last 10 years. The accident rate has gone down drastically in just the last few years. We have the appearance of crashing all the time because of the high profile that results from an accident. Especially one with a pediatric.

Not that I needed the AP before but with it and SVT, I'd have to be a real kind of stupid to crash during IIMC. We just did hood IIMC on my check ride last week. Select NAV, select HDG...done. Intercept the glidepath (ILS or LPV) select VRT...done. Even a caveman can do it. ;)
 
This is just my opinion...but IR ratings might help but not solve the problem. Like mentioned above, the issue was "get there itis" that has killed more IR pilots then you can imagine. The problem that I have is the passengers have no idea what we know about weather and when to fly. They trust our judgement and they expect and trust us to do the right thing I rather have a ****ed off Bride on the ground. Some people like taking risks, you see them on the roads everyday going 2 times over the speed limit and/or swerving through traffic. They just might get away with it, 1, 2, 3 times or more but when you are in the sky judgement is most important.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Dumb question....
In a helo, can the pilot just stop and hover and come up with a plan, like do a 180 and head back or something.
Seems like he could just hold steady and buy some time to think about plan B.
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You could if power allows. In normal cruise flight like in the vid, you're generally using less power than required to hover due to the reduction in induced drag. You may have a situation (heavy, high DA) where the helicopter can sustain forward flight but not be able to hover.

If they were able to hover, you'd still have the threat of getting disoriented coming to a hover. It takes awhile to slow from cruise to a hover and if you try a "quick stop," you might just get yourself even more disoriented. Even if established in the hover you can get disoriented and possibly "settle with power."

Obviously best decision is to avoid IMC in the first place, but once it does happen, commit and go to your training. 1) Level the wings, 2) set climb power, 3) set climb airspeed, 4) once established in the climb, sqk 7700 and contact ATC, 5) find VMC or if unable, recover with an IAP.
 
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Velocity173 said:
If it were 1980, I'd have a no helicopter bracelet as well but things (equipment) have changed rapidly in the air ambulance community in just the last 10 years. The accident rate has gone down drastically in just the last few years. We have the appearance of crashing all the time because of the high profile that results from an accident. Especially one with a pediatric.

Not that I needed the AP before but with it and SVT, I'd have to be a real kind of stupid to crash during IIMC. We just did hood IIMC on my check ride last week. Select NAV, select HDG...done. Intercept the glidepath (ILS or LPV) select VRT...done. Even a caveman can do it. ;)
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You are correct on the high publicity on medevac accidents, fixed or rotary.

5 or 6 years ago there was a not very well written article claiming how dangerous medevac flights are because accidents doubled in a year. The first year there was 2 accidents, the next year there was 4. :rolleyes:

Here in the southwest when there is a medevac helicopter crash it is usually night VMC into IFR type accident, with out NVG, into an area with rapidly rising terrain.

I haven't paid much attention to rotor medevacs lately. It is good to hear they are getting updated. So many of the rotor accidents were very preventable.

Ok, stupid question time: are any helicopters pressurized?
 
Zeldman said:
You are correct on the high publicity on medevac accidents, fixed or rotary.

5 or 6 years ago there was a not very well written article claiming how dangerous medevac flights are because accidents doubled in a year. The first year there was 2 accidents, the next year there was 4. :rolleyes:

Here in the southwest when there is a medevac helicopter crash it is usually night VMC into IFR type accident, with out NVG, into an area with rapidly rising terrain.

I haven't paid much attention to rotor medevacs lately. It is good to hear they are getting updated. So many of the rotor accidents were very preventable.

Ok, stupid question time: are any helicopters pressurized?
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Only helicopter in the world that I know of being pressurized is what Clark made reference to; MI-24. It's pressurized for NBC ops though and not for high altitude, although I'm sure it would work at altitude.

In Afghanistan the highest we usually flew was 13,500-14,000 ft with no issues. If we went above that we could sign out the HEEDS bottles from the armory. Doesn't do much good though if you're on HEEDS at say 16,000 ft and your pax are getting loopy in the back. :D Against regs as well.

You're right, so many accidents preventable. As I always say, it's understandable that a PIC will launch into weather conditions that they shouldn't because of the unexpected. A good PIC has the patience and skills that when they're thrown that curve ball after takeoff, they either find a way to avoid it all together, or they excecute an appropriate IIMC recovery. A good PIC can adapt to the unexpected. Unfortunately you can't teach that. It comes from years getting backed into a corner by weather and finding a solution out.
 
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I felt sick after watching that, the poor groom was getting very uncomfortable and the bride didn't seem to have a care in the world, as it should be on her wedding day. I don't understand the language, I wonder who the girl in the front seat was? She didn't look concerned at all.
 
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