Question for the CFIIs...

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

Final Approach
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
9,167
Location
Vail, Arizona
Display Name
Display name:
Timbeck2
...and for former instrument students that may have had a really good CFII:

What is the hardest part/s of instrument training to get through students' heads and how did you overcome it?

I'm setting myself and my airplane up for training but I'm not in a hurry. I had a deadline of one year to get my private pilot's certificate with the finance company (took 4 months if you're wondering) but for my instrument, I don't have one. I want to have all the information and procedures down and be better prepared for my oral and practical than I was for my private. I did fine but I got rattled a couple of times.
 
It varies depending on the student. However the thing that holds people back the most generally has to do with them not thinking ahead. People tend to focus on the current task and not the next one. That doesn't work so well on instruments.

In order to overcome that I force people to verbalize everything. If they don't - they fall behind like clockwork every time.

What are you doing now? What about after that? And after that? How will you do the missed? What will you do after the missed?

Always make sure your brain is ahead of the airplane. Think about what you do before you do it. Like actually think about it. Every knob twist, every change you make, you better have mentally already walked yourself through it completely. Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.
 
Visualizing holds. Worked in the Redbird and did like a million holds. We were able to pause, de brief, and reposition. Can't do that in the plane.
 
I would say just staying ahead of the airplane and not getting behind. Always thinking about what is coming next, correct nav and com frequencies, ID the station, having MDA/DH and missed procedures committed to memory (or noted on a kneeboard) before beginning an approach, remember to report entering the hold and thinking ahead on what your entry will be, OBS is set correctly and being on the correct function GPS/Vloc, turn on approach lights if not towered, and on top of all of that not forgetting the landing checklist. Just my 2 cents...
 
What Jesse said. I was 48 when I took my checkride--so I had to work harder mentally to absorb and apply a of information then say a 22 year old. One of my challenges was to slow down and not attempt to complete tasks in one fell swoop. For example something as simple as dialing in a new freq. At first I'd just receive the new freq from ATC and immediately go to the radio and start dialing. Invariably I'd lose attitude control and deviate from altitude, heading or more likely both, realize that and fight to get he aircraft back under control and then forget the dang freq. So I had to learn to break tasks up into little chunks: 1. copy the freq down. 2. return to my scan or at last the attitude indicator at the minimum 3. Dial the first 2 or 3 numbers 4. Return to my scan, repeat until the task is complete. Now over time I've gotten faster but the key is never neglect your scan for more then a couple of seconds.
 
For me, it was learning to fly accurately. I hadn't bothered with that much as a PPL. Make sure you've got that down, and then shoot some practice approaches VFR alone. It helps to get the hang of things.

And never try to do more than one thing at a time under the hood.
 
Yup. Judgment on what is a critical task vs a non critical task coupled with thinking two steps ahead is the toughest thing to teach. I can brief you a stall or a Vmc demo and then, if I did it right, you're going to go do it pretty close to ACS/PTS standard. With judgment and initiative, I can brief it all day but I still haven't figured out how to impart it on the student well enough to be within standards on the first try. It's like they have to touch the hot stove, which I hate as an instructor.
 
Being able to know where a hold is based on ATC instructions. All the emphasis in the literature seems to be on hold entries. But first, you have to be able to identify WHERE THE HOLD IS. Get them to draw the hold on a sheet of paper, based on ATC instructions, then it all falls into place. Its not easy, but its doable. Just gotta draw it out. Everyone wants to rush into it. Slow down, draw it, understand it. No shortcuts.
 
Last edited:
Pretty much what everyone is saying Tim. Talking with ATC a biggie too, but being a controller will probably help you there. As Jesse wrote, gotta stay ahead of it. Holding pattern entries and holding once there. NDB approaches were difficult to teach years ago, don't think much of that goes on now.
 
Situational awareness and dealing with distractions. It used to be I could fail one device and the trainee would be forced to fly the needles. Now I have to fail the two approach certified GPS units, the iPad, the iPhone, etc.

Sometimes I'll mess with them by changing the display from track up to north up. For some folks that really twists their mind. Or if they're not looking I'll hit the home button on their iPad three times quickly and watch them scramble to figure out what happened (assuming they're not familiar with the inverse feature).

Another issue: anticipating ATC instructions. There are certain things that happen at certain times and if you're not expecting them, they will confuse you or throw you off track. Approach clearances are commonly stumbled on, even though one would expect to be getting the clearance at some point. Lengthy reroutes are common in the northeast and often throw folks for a look. Sometimes it's simple as getting cleared direct to a fix that's on an airway that's on our route, but not one of the fixes that defines the route. "Proceed direct where?"

I'd also agree on staying head of the airplane. Even at 90kts things happen very quickly and trainees tend to get task focused, forgetting that there's a dozen other tasks that need to get done in preparation for the next phase of flight.
 
Last edited:
Brad Z said:
Sometimes I'll mess with them by changing the display from track up to north up.
Click to expand...


That's just diabolical.

There are pilots in my day job who fly with the HSI North Up. I want to choke slam them.
 
NKTFlyer said:
That's just diabolical.

There are pilots in my day job who fly with the HSI North Up. I want to choke slam them.
Click to expand...
LOL. That's sort of my job ;)

It's always fun to see how long it takes them to return it track up, and how many heading and altitude deviations we have in the process.
 
jesse said:
It varies depending on the student. However the thing that holds people back the most generally has to do with them not thinking ahead. People tend to focus on the current task and not the next one. That doesn't work so well on instruments.

In order to overcome that I force people to verbalize everything. If they don't - they fall behind like clockwork every time.

What are you doing now? What about after that? And after that? How will you do the missed? What will you do after the missed?

Always make sure your brain is ahead of the airplane. Think about what you do before you do it. Like actually think about it. Every knob twist, every change you make, you better have mentally already walked yourself through it completely. Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.
Click to expand...

That was definitely my problem when I flew with @jesse for mine.

That and maintaining a scan when fatigued later in the week. Showed me what to avoid when flying in the non-training environment... when I get tired I almost have to verbalize each move of the eyeballs to keep them moving.

And we are talking REALLY tired here, which we didn't quite get to, but close with all the late night flying.

I've seen myself do it (slow down the scan and not think ahead) VFR at night, IFR/IMC at night it would truly be deadly.

Another tip: Don't just think ahead about the airplane and where it's going and the instruments as they are operating NOW, because some sadistic instructor is about to cover up half of them... hahaha. Think about what you'd need to do if some of them failed... :)

Word to the wise... since you know it's coming... in the training environment. In the real world it may sneak up on you, depending on the failure, but if training gives one advantage it's knowing the CFII is about to make things harder... haha.
 
One stumbling block I had early on while working on approaches was over-correcting deviations, particularly from the localizer. It helped to fly the same approach with the hood off to see how little of a correction is really required when you're one dot to the left or right of the localizer course. If you fly mostly to runways with an ILS, tune it in. If you have an approach-capable GPS and fly to runways that have RNAV (GPS) approaches, load and activate them as vectors-to-final. Then you'll always be building up in your mind the relationship between a one-dot localizer deviation and a sight picture of the runway, which will keep you from over-correcting when you only have the CDI indicator to work from.
 
I'm going to list two. Attitudinal rather than specific tasks.

1. This one has been mentioned in a few forms, but the catchall is situational awareness. Knowing where you are and what comes next. Knowing what those vectors to final are likely to be in advance. Demystifying hold entries, a simple procedure that is taught to be complicated. Using the "5 Ts" as a briefing tool before getting to a fix to stay ahead rather than after to catch up. Seeing the trees but recognizing the forest and where you are in it.

2. Understanding that aircraft control is the smallest part of instrument training. It is obviously essential, but the real world of IFR and IFR training is about being in a system in which procedure is king.
 
Staying ahead I agree. Only problem is you may find yourself doing that for your ground life. Last time I was driving to Pittsburgh I was stopped at the toll booth and thought what are my next two turns. FYI Ohio turnpike is the most boring stretch of road ever!
 
Go up in a cloud in the middle of the night in a single engine trainer airplane. In conditions so you have to do a low approach. No autopilot and no copilot. Now thats hard IMC.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Go up in a cloud in the middle of the night in a single engine trainer airplane. In conditions so you have to do a low approach. No autopilot and no copilot. Now thats hard IMC.
Click to expand...

I thought that was just called "My Christmas Vacation in Nebraska". LOL.

Who are you people with autopilots?! Fancy pants... heh.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm going to list two. Attitudinal rather than specific tasks.

1. This one has been mentioned in a few forms, but the catchall is situational awareness. Knowing where you are and what comes next. Knowing what those vectors to final are likely to be in advance. Demystifying hold entries, a simple procedure that is taught to be complicated. Using the "5 Ts" as a briefing tool before getting to a fix to stay ahead rather than after to catch up. Seeing the trees but recognizing the forest and where you are in it.

2. Understanding that aircraft control is the smallest part of instrument training. It is obviously essential, but the real world of IFR and IFR training is about being in a system in which procedure is king.
Click to expand...

5 T's-looked them up. Funny how different pilots list them differently but here's one that seemed to make the most sense:

Time I would say is first because you may need to be precise to the second over a fix and its best to write things down wings level and trimmed.
Turn is next because flying the aircraft has priority.
Track is next because after aviate comes navigate, the initial turn will get you close to your track.
Throttles are next to fine tune and verify, best to do wings level and trimmed when your head is in the cockpit.
Talk is next because because its my last priority. Someone on the ground can't help me fly my aeroplane.
 
Timbeck2 said:
5 T's-looked them up. Funny how different pilots list them differently but here's one that seemed to make the most sense:

Time I would say is first because you may need to be precise to the second over a fix and its best to write things down wings level and trimmed.
Turn is next because flying the aircraft has priority.
Track is next because after aviate comes navigate, the initial turn will get you close to your track.
Throttles are next to fine tune and verify, best to do wings level and trimmed when your head is in the cockpit.
Talk is next because because its my last priority. Someone on the ground can't help me fly my aeroplane.
Click to expand...

I've always seen Turn first. Might make a difference in something fast in terrain.

In reality they happen so close together it doesn't matter, but if given the choice, turn first, mess with timer second.

In VOR days, Track was Twist... as in Twist the OBS to the desired Track. I could see why the children of the magenta line would rename that it Track -- push buttons get food pellet. Heh.
 
Timbeck2 said:
5 T's-looked them up. Funny how different pilots list them differently but here's one that seemed to make the most sense:

Time I would say is first because you may need to be precise to the second over a fix and its best to write things down wings level and trimmed.
Turn is next because flying the aircraft has priority.
Track is next because after aviate comes navigate, the initial turn will get you close to your track.
Throttles are next to fine tune and verify, best to do wings level and trimmed when your head is in the cockpit.
Talk is next because because its my last priority. Someone on the ground can't help me fly my aeroplane.
Click to expand...
I've seen 5, 6 and 7 Ts. At some point mnemonics become more important that what they are supposed to represent. My anti-mnemonic bias also shows in that I think "track" is stupid. If one needs a reminder to actually "track" the course they just "turned" to, They should stay on the ground.

The arguments I see about the correct order are mostly useless. I'm not sure it makes a bit of difference whether one turns to the next course and then starts the timer or vice versa (assuming there's anything left that requires timing).
 
denverpilot said:
I've always seen Turn first. Might make a difference in something fast in terrain.

In reality they happen so close together it doesn't matter, but if given the choice, turn first, mess with timer second.

In VOR days, Track was Twist... as in Twist the OBS to the desired Track. I could see why the children of the magenta line would rename that it Track -- push buttons get food pellet. Heh.
Click to expand...
"Track" existed before GPS as a 6th T. And you still "Twist" with GPS. Without GPSS you'll need to move the nav needle on the HSI for the autopilot to follow. Twisting a HSI or external OBS to a reference has just as much situational value with GPS as with a localizer.
 
midlifeflyer said:
"Track" existed before GPS as a 6th T. And you still "Twist" with GPS. Without GPSS you'll need to move the nav needle on the HSI for the autopilot to follow. Twisting a HSI or external OBS to a reference has just as much situational value with GPS as with a localizer.
Click to expand...

Heh. Soooo many variants of this thing. Key of course is being consistent so you free up brain cells to think. :)
 
I think you are 1/3 of the way there just because you're a controller. Perhaps more.
There is lots of overlap on this one.
 
Never heard of "track" before. I don't see the point.
 
dmspilot said:
Difference of what?
Click to expand...
Really? I figured you would understand this.

"Twisting" an obs is really nothing more than dialing in your desired "track".

If you need further, let me know.
 
Kritchlow said:
Really? I figured you would understand this.

"Twisting" an obs is really nothing more than dialing in your desired "track".

If you need further, let me know.
Click to expand...

That's not the way it was used by the other posters.
 
dmspilot said:
That's not the way it was used by the other posters.
Click to expand...
What I read said the T's, but "track" was where "twist" commonly is.

Perhaps I didn't see the post that you are referring to.
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. Soooo many variants of this thing. Key of course is being consistent so you free up brain cells to think. :)
Click to expand...
The key is absolutely to have consistent SOPs to free up brain cells, but I'm not convinced mnemonics, at least in the way they are overused, do a particularly good job of that. At best, they can be a handle for learning an SOP or a refresher for blowing off some rust. At worst, they get elevated to religious status with people arguing about whether Time or Turn coming first is the One True Way.

I actually teach the Ts a bit differently to begin with. Most of what I've seen and heard is going through them when crossing a fix. To me, that's a recipie for getting behind the airplane. I teach doing the Ts as advance preparation for the next fix as part if knowing what some refer to as the most important thing in instrument flying - the next thing. Except to blow off rust after a layoff, it ultimately fades into the background as good operating habits take over. Mentioned Track, which was a useless add in to begin with. How about Throttle? Yep I'd definitely forget all about slowing down for the FAF or reducing power at MDA or DA without it!

I think 7 Ts is the max I've seen for variations. That happens to mnemonics. Think about all the variations of the simple GUMP check. And the ones so convoluted you can't even recall what they stand for.

Yeah, I know. I talk about quasi-religious use of mnemonics and here I am ranting like an anti-mnemonic religious atheist.
 
Kritchlow said:
What I read said the T's, but "track" was where "twist" commonly is.

Perhaps I didn't see the post that you are referring to.
Click to expand...
midlifeflyer said:
"Track" existed before GPS as a 6th T. ...
Click to expand...
One variation on the theme is Turn, Time, Twist, Throttle, Track, Talk.

I'm sure I've seen a 7T variation as well but can't recall what the 7th was.

But st least we've answered the original question. The hardest (and clearly most important) part of instrument training is figuring out WTF the "correct" version of a mnemonic is and what it means. :p:D
 
Gas
Undercarriage
Mixture
Prop

At least back in the day...:(
 
Gear
Unleaded
Manifold pressure/RPM
Proportion of fuel to air
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top